Ok, let's reduce this a bit. Say you're level 40 fighting level 43s. When you got the level shift you'd be acting like a level 41 vs those 43s.
In a similar fashion, if you got a level shift, you would be acting like a level 51 vs the level 53s. They would con 1 color level lower after the level shift. They would still be level 53s and you'd still be level 50 though.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Originally Posted by SoilentGreen
I was reading through this page
http://goingrogue.na.cityofheroes.co...lpha-slot.html and I'm wondering...the 'level shift' portion of the rare ability...does that mean if I'm fighting 53s now it would be like fighting 52s if I have the level shift? Do enemies con lower to me if I have that? |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Ok, let's reduce this a bit. Say you're level 40 fighting level 43s. When you got the level shift you'd be acting like a level 41 vs those 43s.
In a similar fashion, if you got a level shift, you would be acting like a level 51 vs the level 53s. They would con 1 color level lower after the level shift. They would still be level 53s and you'd still be level 50 though. |
The real question is, if the enemies con lower to you, does that reduce the amount of influence you obtain from defeating them?
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It depends. We don't really know yet.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
No, the alpha slot doesn't work lower than 47, remember?
The real question is, if the enemies con lower to you, does that reduce the amount of influence you obtain from defeating them? |
Level shift should work similar to GM code/sidekicking/exemplaring in that it has the game's combat tables treat you as if your combat level was one level higher than your character's level. We don't know if level shift will also affect the rewards tables yet. Only a Dev, or possibly someone in the closed beta, would know at this point.
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I think Snow Globe was just using those numbers to explain this game's general definition of a "level shift". I don't think he was trying to imply the Alpha slots work below level 47. Remember there was talk of a "level shift inspiration" that might be added to the game in the future that would allow anyone to gain a temporary level shift effect. These inspirations would presumably work for characters of any level, not just a level 50 Incarnate.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
No, the alpha slot doesn't work lower than 47, remember?
The real question is, if the enemies con lower to you, does that reduce the amount of influence you obtain from defeating them? |
I think the net effect of a level shift is that it'll allow players to defeat enemies easier. I doubt the rewards for defeating those enemies would be reduced in any way. The idea that there could be any negative consequences to using level shifting just doesn't really make any sense.
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Level 45, actually.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
No, the alpha slot doesn't work lower than 47, remember?
The real question is, if the enemies con lower to you, does that reduce the amount of influence you obtain from defeating them? |
The mechanics of the inspiration level shift cause you to con 50(+1) to a level 54 enemy. In this regard, I believe that the same will happen when you have a level shifting slot, though certain Incarnate Trials may raise the hard-cap for enemy groups.
The reason it won't change enemy level to say, 55, in "normal" gameplay, is because you are more choosing to be more powerful than your foes (That are weaker by design and lore), rather than using the non-shifted abilities that we currently have.
You will be effectively fighting at level 51 versus all the level 50 foes in the traditional level 50 TFs!
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Ok, let's reduce this a bit. Say you're level 40 fighting level 43s. When you got the level shift you'd be acting like a level 41 vs those 43s.
In a similar fashion, if you got a level shift, you would be acting like a level 51 vs the level 53s. They would con 1 color level lower after the level shift. They would still be level 53s and you'd still be level 50 though. |
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
No, the alpha slot doesn't work lower than 47, remember?
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The original poster's numbers were 50-53. By reducing the numbers to 40-43 (which the original poster should be familiar with), they can "get" the idea because they've done levels 40-43.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I think Snow Globe was just using those numbers to explain this game's general definition of a "level shift". I don't think he was trying to imply the Alpha slots work below level 47.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
The real question is, if the enemies con lower to you, does that reduce the amount of influence you obtain from defeating them?
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I actually hope they raise the hard-cap level 54-54 on the AVs in those TFs. They're quite easy to get Mo as is without the shift, and I can't imagine how easy it will be for my Fortunata to tank them as a 50(+4).
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
You will be effectively fighting at level 51 versus all the level 50 foes in the traditional level 50 TFs!
The last Master of... badge I need is Barracuda. I've decided to wait until I can gather a team that's all effectively 51. |
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I think in the future we'll probably see some ultra high-end incarnate only content that'll have critters higher than level 54 to challenge our god-like fully loaded incarnates. But I doubt we'll ever see those kinds of boosted enemies in any currently existing content, even for the current "Master" level TF/SFs.|
Originally Posted by Bringer_NA
I actually hope they raise the hard-cap level 54-54 on the AVs in those TFs. They're quite easy to get Mo as is without the shift, and I can't imagine how easy it will be for my Fortunata to tank them as a 50(+4).
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You have to remember there will always be level 50 characters in this game who are either not incarnates yet or (for whatever reason) have chosen not to become incarnates. There will always be a need for "standard" level 54 AVs because, believe it or not, not everyone can easily do the Master TF/SFs and many people still find them more than enough of a challenge for them.
I suppose this will mean that eventually top-end incarnates will be able to do the current Master level TF/SFs fairly easily. Such is life.
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I will be in no way surprised if it causes standard level-based rewards to be reduced. Think about it. Why would they give us the same reward for defeating stuff that's now explicitly easier to defeat? It would be like having a mode that gave us the same XP(debt)/Inf/Prestige as fighting +4s for being on the +3 setting.
I'm not going to openly complain if they leave the rewards alone, but I'm going to be pretty shocked.
If does work this way, there's a definite downside from our view. We would have to accept reduced rewards (against existing content) to gain the other benefits of the more rare slots.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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There are people out there who like to set their mission difficulty settings up as high as possible to maximize their rewards. If something like incarnate slots gave us permanent level shifts which effectively gave us permanent reward "nerfs" as you're implying I'll bet there'll be people out there who'll try to AVOID any future content that would impose permanent level shifts on them.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I will be in no way surprised if it causes standard level-based rewards to be reduced. Think about it. Why would they give us the same reward for defeating stuff that's now explicitly easier to defeat? It would be like having a mode that gave us the same XP(debt)/Inf/Prestige as fighting +4s for being on the +3 setting.
I'm not going to openly complain if they leave the rewards alone, but I'm going to be pretty shocked. If does work this way, there's a definite downside from our view. We would have to accept reduced rewards (against existing content) to gain the other benefits of the more rare slots. |
I just can't see the incarnate system institutionalizing reward nerfage. What's the point of getting one of my 50s up to being a tip-top uber incarnate when it'll only be able to earn like +0 level rewards? I'd be better off (under that system) keeping my 50s as non-incarnates, or at the very least non level shifted.
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Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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I stand corrected. |
Originally Posted by Bringer_NA
Level 45, actually.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Reading comprehension failure. I was trying to give the original poster something familiar so that they could understand the principles involved. By reducing all their numbers by an equal amount (basic math principle), the picture should be made clearer.
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There's no such thing as a "permanent" level shift. You can unslot it and slot a lower level version of the power.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
There are people out there who like to set their mission difficulty settings up as high as possible to maximize their rewards. If something like incarnate slots gave us permanent level shifts which effectively gave us permanent reward "nerfs" as you're implying I'll bet there'll be people out there who'll try to AVOID any future content that would impose permanent level shifts on them.
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I just can't see the incarnate system institutionalizing reward nerfage. What's the point of getting one of my 50s up to being a tip-top uber incarnate when it'll only be able to earn like +0 level rewards? I'd be better off (under that system) keeping my 50s as non-incarnates, or at the very least non level shifted.
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Now stack level shifts on top of that. Does it really make any sense to you that these increasing powers should just mean that we get faster and faster at earning existing reward levels off of existing mobs? That doesn't make any sense to me. What makes sense to me is something like what happens when we outlevel mobs now.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
No, the alpha slot doesn't work lower than 47, remember?
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
No need to be rude. If you had said "If the level shift applied to a level 40..", you would have been entirely correct. I don't see why the concept of a 50 is that much harder to relate to.
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I did not say, as you implied in your first response to me, that the Incarnate system went to level 40. That was your mistake, not mine. The wording in the first line was fairly clear that it was an example, not a statement on what level it went down to:
"Ok, let's reduce this a bit. Say you're level 40 fighting level 43s."
See the word you skipped over? It wasn't "You can exempt to 40 while being an Incarnate." or "You can be an Incarnate at level 40." or even "You're an Incarnate level 40 fighting level 43s." All of those would have been stating what you implied.
The post goes further and in the second half brings it back to what the original poster asked, but in a better context than the original poster put forth.
As to why the concept of a 50 was "harder to relate to", well, the original poster got it wrong. They were applying the level shift incorrectly in their post so I wanted to use an example that they did know about.
"does that mean if I'm fighting 53s now it would be like fighting 52s if I have the level shift?"
They were applying the level shift as a -1 to the critter's level instead of treating themselves as +1 while the critters were unchanged.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Remember there was talk of a "level shift inspiration" that might be added to the game in the future that would allow anyone to gain a temporary level shift effect. These inspirations would presumably work for characters of any level, not just a level 50 Incarnate.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Incarnate abilities can be removed at any time*, so there's nothing permanent about any buffs/nerfs associated with them.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
There are people out there who like to set their mission difficulty settings up as high as possible to maximize their rewards. If something like incarnate slots gave us permanent level shifts which effectively gave us permanent reward "nerfs" as you're implying I'll bet there'll be people out there who'll try to AVOID any future content that would impose permanent level shifts on them.
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*"at any time" being 5 minutes outside of combat or after the cooldown for switching your last slot component, of course.
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I'd be better off (under that system) keeping my 50s as non-incarnates, or at the very least non level shifted.
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How many of your level 40 characters can solo a level 50 mission?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
There's no such thing as a "permanent" level shift. You can unslot it and slot a lower level version of the power.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Incarnate abilities can be removed at any time, so there's nothing permanent about any buffs/nerfs associated with them.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't even understand how you can not see the answer to this question. High-end Incarnate level power is going to make existing level 50 mobs the equivalent of gray con mobs. Sure, they might not mechanically be as bad at hitting and damaging us, but we're going to roll over them like they aren't there, and that doesn't even include the level shifts.
Now stack level shifts on top of that. Does it really make any sense to you that these increasing powers should just mean that we get faster and faster at earning existing reward levels off of existing mobs? That doesn't make any sense to me. What makes sense to me is something like what happens when we outlevel mobs now. |
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
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Because the devs are not that dumb? I have never understood the position that just because this is a superhero game that the content needs to be so easy as to be unbalanced. The same holds for this lore-based notion that we're becoming gods. Why should a god find munging a mortal particularly rewarding? |
Originally Posted by Lothic
We are going to be end-game GODS once we have high level Alphas slotted. The Incarnate system is going to effectively "break" the balance of the game whether the Devs want it to or not. As a reward for all of our hard work creating these gods why would we not be able to roll over these critters very easily AND get good rewards for it at the same time?
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This is a progress-based game. When we level to 50 from 40, we either get to fight level 40s for no reward or exemplar down and lose some of our power. I expect the same rules to apply in some fashion for Incarnate abilities.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think I might have an answer for that: Those that want to challenge themselves.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Who in their right mind would bother creating a Very Rare Alpha and willingly NOT want to use it, unless of course it had a stupid disadvantage like the one that's being suggested here? Are you ever going to want to willingly shift down to say a Common Alpha once you have a Very Rare crafted? I didn't think so...
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Like Fulcrum Shift? Or Speed Boost? Or any buff/debuff that's been in the game since day one?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I will be in no way surprised if it causes standard level-based rewards to be reduced. Think about it. Why would they give us the same reward for defeating stuff that's now explicitly easier to defeat?
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See, I view Level Shift working on the same principle: It's a buff that elevates your comparative to-hit/damage values without inherently raising your actual level. In that light, it's a buff. Since we get similar effects from ally buffs/debuffs without XP/INF loss, I'm of the viewpoint that this would fall under the same category.
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I view it as working on the same principle as sidekicking/exemplaring rather than on buffing. If you're level 21 and you sidekick up to level 22 for a mission, you get level 21 rewards. Exemp down to level 2 for a mission and you get level 21 rewards. Except for the level of recipe drops. I'm talking xp/inf.|
Originally Posted by Turgenev
Like Fulcrum Shift? Or Speed Boost? Or any buff/debuff that's been in the game since day one?
See, I view Level Shift working on the same principle: It's a buff that elevates your comparative to-hit/damage values without inherently raising your actual level. In that light, it's a buff. Since we get similar effects from ally buffs/debuffs without XP/INF loss, I'm of the viewpoint that this would fall under the same category. |
So I agree with Turg, for completely different reasons.
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They shouldn't, since they con the same to any and everyone.|
Originally Posted by SailorET
Here's a curiosity: Will rikti invaders con blue?
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UberGuy pretty much believes the same thing I do about the shift, so I'm going to have to go with him on the reduced rewards. I don't see any reason as to why someone who's complaining about reduced rewards wouldn't just down-slot to what we currently have.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
These level shifts would effectively be "permanent" if you wanted to keep yourself slotted with Rare or Very Rare Alphas. Obviously anyone could unslot them, but then you wouldn't be under the possible level shift nerfage either. Who in their right mind would bother creating a Very Rare Alpha and willingly NOT want to use it, unless of course it had a stupid disadvantage like the one that's being suggested here? Are you ever going to want to willingly shift down to say a Common Alpha once you have a Very Rare crafted? I didn't think so...
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If the level shift actually nerfs rewards, then you can declare this system a failure. It would mean level shifted incarnates shouldn't even bother teaming with "normal level 50s" because to do so would mean no rewards or crappy rewards.
That would be a horrible way to segregate your population.
This is no different than uber raid gear making level 60, 70, 80, or 85 level players in WoW able to roll over non-heroic dungeon mobs. The gear makes you the equivalent of many levels higher, but you still get the same rewards. It is part of what is fun about earning that gear in the first place.
The truth is no one know how the level shifts are going to work. and even if there are people who know they cant talk about it since that's part of what that group in the I20 Beta's testing (you know with the signed NDA).
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I was reading through this page
http://goingrogue.na.cityofheroes.co...lpha-slot.html
and I'm wondering...the 'level shift' portion of the rare ability...does that mean if I'm fighting 53s now it would be like fighting 52s if I have the level shift? Do enemies con lower to me if I have that?