Alpha Slot 'level shift'

Yes, but if you're fighting level 21 mobs and you sidekick up to level 25 but the mobs are still level 21, then you are earning lesser rewards. The rewards are based on your level AND the relative level of the enemies you are fighting.

I'm with UberGuy on this one - I would not object if the rewards stayed the same, but I would be surprised.

Good point.

This seems likely to me as well. However if it is I hope they either start adding some repeatable, single player content of allow incarnates to use the difficulty settings to spawn enemies higher than +4. This will allow people who want to play with the incarnate powers and earn rewards without needing to form a TF/Trial. In the short term people will compensate by simply increasing the difficulty slider (i.e. run at +1 instead of +0) but with each level shift you will get people who now have to choose between running at their preferred difficulty or using all of their incarnate powers. For example with the level shift fromt he alpha slot it now becomes impossible to run at +4 without using a lower tier one and foregoing part of the power it grants you.

This is why I still contend the Devs "are not that dumb" to allow their top-end character rewards to have, in effect, built-in disadvantages like this. It makes very little sense that a character "tricked out" with the best equipment the game will offer could potentially become less effective in earning loot from defeating critters than a "untricked out" character could be.

I'm not currently in the Issue 19.5 beta so I don't have the answer to this yet. But I suspect the exact way level-shifting will work will only prove to be a net IMPROVEMENT to how our characters will work and will not come with any hidden/undesirable disadvantages.

Actually, nothing I know about level shift is technically covered by any NDA. I discussed the mechanics of level shift with Castle long (long, long) ago, and that was covered by my normal "I won't blab until the devs break radio silence first" informal agreement with him. I stayed silent until a player guessed at the mechanics *and* Positron basically confirmed that guess. At that point, I was free to discuss, and after I18 beta was over I was free to repeat outside of beta. I'm saying this partially so the mods don't think I've gone off the reservation. I'm NDA covered for lots of things, but level shift isn't one of them. And Positron confirmed the mechanics once, and even if that's not easy to find, its still technically publicly outed.

What I know is not everything, but I will correct some discrepancies between what I know and what was said in this thread. Level shift does not make the critters lower. It *also* does not make us higher. Changing actual combat levels changes a number of things for players and critters: it makes our health higher, our damage higher, etc. It *also* affects combat modifier tables: what most players call the purple patch. When we are a different level than our target, there are modifiers that kick in to make us hit harder or softer, and vice versa, depending on whether we are higher or lower than the target. This is a completely separate and independent effect.

Suppose I'm a level one attacking a level 49. Obviously, there are problems. I've got about 100 points of health, and I'm hitting for like two points of damage (with brawl no less). Worse: I am -48 to the target, so on top of everything else, my base chance to hit the target drops to 1%, my damage gets reduced to 1% of normal, etc. By being so low, everything I do gets muted against that target. I'm going to probably be doing 0.02 damage every twenty swings (the 5% floor would still apply).

If I side kick to a 50, I *become* 49. That means my health increases to above 1000, my brawl starts dealing about 10-20 points (depending on archetype), etc. I'm also even con to the critter, so there are no combat modifiers. If I were to somehow acquire 48 level shifts, I would also be even to the critter relative to the combat modifier tables. That means no penalties. But I would still be level one. So that means while I have no combat modifier penalties any more, I still have only 100 points of health, I still have only a couple points of damage per brawl. I'm not a level 49 with level 49 numbers. I'm a level one that acts like a 49 for the purpose of the purple patch only.

So, to reiterate, as far as I know, level shift doesn't make the critters lower, and it doesn't make the players higher. It will not make us level 51: there is no level 51 for players. The numbers don't exist. What it does is muck with the level difference calculations in the purple patch, and as far as I know that's all. Whether it also affects things like rewards is something I do not know at all.

All of this is a direct consequence of the devs saying level shift affects combat modifiers, by the way. That sounds like it could be open to interpretation, but it isn't. It is, of course, subject to change until its released.


One other thing: we're likely never going to see level 60 critters to challenge us when we have level shift. That would require the devs to add critter tables for level 56, 57, 58, etc. Instead, they will likely add level 55s with +5 level shift. That makes more sense: critters will eventually get level shift to counter our level shifts and even the playing field again, but probably only in content designed for highly slotted incarnates.

Sadly I expect this will happen, and unlike other arbitrary prejudices this form of elitism will -almost- be justified due to the content involved. Incarnate level TFs require alpha slotting to avoid face-planting every 10 seconds. Any future content will likely be hard enough that people who aren't level-shifted will be an extreme liability to the success of the missions involved.

Not sure if the Devs are actively trying to encourage this form of elitism, but they are going to get it whether they wanted it or not. *shrugs*

I can see it where if you don't early adopt, you will be left out of the cold.

TF forming Levelshifted Toons (no stalkers) only!-- will become standard even if the TF needs it or not.

Depends on how much level shift we're talking about. Right now, people do SK other people into task forces, even though that means they are -1 to the leader: not having level shift in a team where everyone else has one level of level shift would be similar. Now, if you lack level shift and the entire team has four levels of level shift, that might be a different story. It depends on what they are attacking. If the critters don't have level shift, then the team would be even to the critters and you would still be -4 (in a TF with level 54s). That's bad, but not nearly as bad as when you lack Alpha and you get shifted down -4 fighting 54s and end up -8 to the content in Tin Mage. At that point you are a pinata soaked in gasoline packed with rocket fuel.

We don't know how much level shift is in the total Incarnate system, or whether there are caps or limits to it, so its hard to extrapolate.

It may be "hard to extrapolate" just how much of a real disadvantage it'll be between level-shifted and non level-shifted people on a team. But I think you'll agree the silly elitism that exists out there which tends to discriminate against people being invited to teams for these kinds of petty reasons will likely latch onto this new "data point" to use whether it's truly significant or not. And sadly, like the number differences with the Alpha slot itself, I think the justification for this kind of elitism will actually be based more on verifiable, provable reality than just the run-of-the-mill baseless stupidity.

Whether there are quantifiable numbers or not, I'm pretty sure it will still be based on baseless stupidity. Baselessly stupid people don't suddenly grow a brain when confronted with numbers.

Usually makes the problem worse and they run away saying they are correct and you are just dumb. Then they take their toy out of the sandbox and will no longer share with you...

Anyway, I think you'll always have problems with pug's with tf's no matter what, and given a choice I highly doubt I would ever want to do something that is supposed to be endgame content with a pug. Hopefully most friends and SG's will give you the benefit of the doubt to know even though you may be a level less that you'll still benefit them. Now once you go past 5 levels below the mob, I would start questioning even my friends why they there. It's just the price of admission, and this is all for TF's.

BTW, thanks for sharing your insight on the mechanics Arcana. Reading what you wrote, I would take it as the rewards shouldn't be limited because the game still sees you as 50 and the mobs still at whatever level they are, so rewards won't change.... maybe

But I understand both sides of the discussion and can't really disagree greatly with either, so I guess we'll see in a week or two how it is.

That was me! Yay me!

Anyhow, I doubt that there will be any reward penalty for using level shift, since there isn't one for being buffed, slotting enhancements, using temp powers or using inspirations. All of those things make enemies easier to defeat but we still get full rewards.

if it only effects my combat table it wouldn't change anything about my pets. Imps are already useless as they are -5 .. I don't see that changing.

I'd guess that it would affect summoned pets the exact same way being SK'd to a higher level does... it's increasing your combat level so your monkeys would spawn at -1 to your combat level... in this case where your combat level is 51 the monkeys would be 50.

This is just my guess based on a level shift working like a SK. The only people who'd know for sure can't tell us.

<edit>
Ah, just read Arcana's description of the mechanics a few posts above. Still, I'd think that it should work the same for pets as it does for you; they should also function as if they were higher level for tohit and damage.

That might be one of the benefits of playing on a lower population server (rather than say... Freedom). On my home server of Protector, there seems to be a lot less discrimination.

When the calls for the various TFs go out over the global channels, there are usually enough responses to fill the team, and maybe a couple extra that get left out, who then go on to start a second TF. Of course, the 2nd TF may have to resort to needling others to help fill out the group, and thus takes a bit longer to form.

The end result, though, is that teams tend to be far more accepting of anyone (with the exception of the Incarnate TFs that require a slotted Alpha boost to be able to actually help the team). I've never seen anyone who was eligible to take part in a TF be turned away because they didnt have their alpha slot, even when attempting Master runs, and I would be shocked to see it happening in the future.

This.

I'm also a protector player, and I just can't imagine people turning people away for something as silly as not being level shifted. We invite people all the time that have just dinged 35 to the ITF, and that's essentially the same thing, if not worse (what with having less powers/slotting and all).

I mean, if we can run content now (such as Apex and Tin Mage, let alone normal pre I-19 tf's) on unoptimized teams with no issues, why would the sudden addition of a level shift as a mechanic change anything?

It's the same story on Guardian as well; forming a TF we very seldom turn anyone down if they meet the minimum level for the TF. Yes, the Incarnate TF's DO require a slotted Alpha but that's very nearly the same as meeting the minimum level to start the TF.

When I'm forming a TF I usually just shout out into the global channels and end up with enough players. Most everyone now has multiple characters available and if we end up with a really bad mix people are generally willing to swap to an alt. Still I tend to go with whatever shows up; if things are really out of sorts I'll swap characters since I have pretty much everything at level 50.

I don't really see this elitism in forming TF teams; if you're above the minimum level and you're early enough to get a slot I'll invite you to the TF. Yes, when forming I do first ask my global friends if they want in but that's a given in any team. Once I know how many slots I have open I start looking for teammates on a first come, first served basis. In my experience that's the way almost every other player recruiting for a team works as well.