Something I want to ask about set Inventions.
By
Arilou,
Posted on: 2011-01-11 11:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Don't assume that all rare recipes are expensive, or all uncommon recipes are cheep.
I really should do something about this signature.
Rares are arguably easier to get than uncommons, ironically. Uncommons tends to be so cheap that people don't bother putting them on the AH (with a few exceptions) while you can get a ton of rare recipes from A-merits. (and if you don't like the ones you get you can sell them and buy stuff for them)
My fort is prety much a rare-only build (purples are just way too expensive)
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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This be true.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Don't assume that all rare recipes are expensive, or all uncommon recipes are cheep.
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In general with Rares they can be 10k. It's snagging the Salvage that might cost you a mill or two (case in point, the Ghost Widows Acc/Hold/Recharge typically costs 10k but the Salvage is about 1.5 mill for the Rare bit).
Wow. I so didn't read the word in the title of this thread as "set"...
I think I need to go to bed now...
They eat up far, far more inf than you think at first. Kinda like drugs and Warhammer.
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I approve of this statement on multiple levels.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
They eat up far, far more inf than you think at first. Kinda like drugs and Warhammer.
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I get where you're coming from here, and I tend to be a bit more involved with my planning then you, so that might color my advice some. But all that I mentioned before can be applied to Uncommons, if you don't want to get too involved. Yes, you have to account for the recipe being harder to found, usually through the market, but that's not much different from most of the Salvage you've been collecting so far either. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The problem is that this really doesn't seem to apply to Uncommons, as their price, rarity and lack of recipes at the University really does mean I'll have to hoard recipes and salvage ahead of time. I actually used to try to do that - make up a huge list of what salvage I need for how many of which recipe and mail that to myself, but I quickly reqlised it's just a huge pain in the *** to keep track of those things, especially since the game doesn't give me any means to do so.
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So to help break it down for you, and make it easier to handle in little bite sized chunks, here is what I would do:
Focus on one power at a time. This way you're not overwhelmed by how many recipes you need, or how much salvage you have to get. Just figuring out what to slot in one power is plenty complicated by itself, including how you want to Frankenslot and how expensive the particular recipes might be. So cutting it down to six or fewer at a time can be a life saver.
Use an out of game tool. I know, it sucks. But Notepad can be the difference between knowing what you need to get, and constantly checking the recipe to figure out what salvage you need to buy. Just list the Character name, the name of the recipe, and what salvage it takes. Use what ever system you want to make sure you can keep your recipes separate from each other. Use a spreadsheet program like Excel if you really want to get into it (I used a spreadsheet for my Warshade to keep track of about 30 IOs I needed to buy and craft, as well as the salvage I needed and had).
Even if you don't want to use an out of game tool, just focusing on one power at a time will make sending yourself an Email about what you need easier, as a single list can cover all your bases. It will still be complicated to a point, but this is just to break it down into bite sized portions of complicated, instead of a whole cake worth.
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Sam, I have been reading your posts for many years now, and though we've never met, or even corresponded, I've gotten kind of fond of you. It makes me a very sad panda to see you throw away money like that because of impatience. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
As I said before, my patience for Marketeering does not exist. It's just about enough to snag a full set of commons even if I have to pay 40 million for them (which I had to, last time), though I could see myself staggering Set Inventions slotting over the 50-to-Incarnate process. But not by too much.
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Please, just once, as an experiment, try this one thing: the next time you're all done playing for the day and you're about to log out, head over to the market. Put in a bid for 10 common IO's. Not the recipes: the already crafted ones. Whatever kind you want. Accuracy? Healing? Whatever. Any level you want, except 50. How about 45? 45 is nice. Almost the same bonus as a 50, much better than an SO, but much cheaper than a 50. Put in the bid for, say, 151,000 inf. Maybe the last 5 are all double or triple that. Maybe it would take a million or ten to buy one right now. But try putting in a bid for 151k. Or maybe less. How about either 151k or 1/2 the lowest price in the last 5, whichever is lower. Then log out.
The next day when you log in, maybe you'll have bought some. Maybe not. But no harm in trying, right? And if it turns out that you can buy a whole stack of them for that price, half the price that people were paying last night, or even lower, well... that's the value of patience. And you didn't even have to be patient! Ten seconds before logging out, ten seconds after logging in... there's no waiting at all! During the in-between time you weren't waiting; you were sleeping, or eating, or doing whatever it is you do with your life.
Now hopefully, if you had the same luck that I usually do, then you now have a relatively painless way to get what you want for a tiny fraction of what you were paying before. Of course, it might turn out that you didn't actually need a stack of those enhancements. In that case, you might as well get rid of them. Just sell them all for the same price you paid when you bought them. Then go play. Have fun. Ignore the market. If you're lucky, they'll all sell while you're doing other things. By the time you get back to the market, you might discover that the ten enhancements you listed for 151k have sold for 200k or 250k each. Or maybe not. And maybe the whole experiment will be so boring and awful that you'll never want to do it again. That's fine. Just try it, once, as a favor to me. And I'll tell you what, if you lose money on the deal, let me know. I'll email it to you, no worries.
What do you say? You don't really want me to be a sad, sad panda, do you?
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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See, I don't actually mind paying too much money, provided I have that money to pay, and I usually have had it, at least recently. I don't see it as a waste. I see it as the price of impatience. I can pay less money if I want to do more work or wait a longer time, or I can pay extra and have the items right now. When given that choice and enough money to pay extra, then I will every time.|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
Sam, I have been reading your posts for many years now, and though we've never met, or even corresponded, I've gotten kind of fond of you. It makes me a very sad panda to see you throw away money like that because of impatience.
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As I said before, the less I have to deal with the market, and indeed the less I have to deal with enhancing and training and build planning, the happier I will be. Ideally, when I hit 37, I want to get a round of enhancements all in one go and then not worry about them again until all the way up to level 47, when I'll snag a set of 50s. I don't bother with level 45 Commons simply because they do cost a lot, and my level 40 Commons don't expire anyway, so I can skip a level at no real downside.
What you're suggesting I do is sort of a "project," in that instead of getting a full round of enhancements NOW, I get them a little at a time over a longer period, presumably running around with SOs in the meantime. While that's certainly doable, I see no reason to do it if I have a better variant. You have to understand that I "grew up" in the age of SOs, when each "enhancement level" mean that I'd go to the market and buy a full set. If I COULDN'T buy a full set right away, then that meant I was doing something wrong, didn't have enough money and was generally something I didn't want to do. Times have changed, yes, but I have not.
About the only time I can at all foresee myself turning a character into a "project" is post-50 when I won't be getting any more enhancement slots anyway, but at that point I'll already have a full set commons anyway, and I'm still not convinced I want to get into Sets. I guess it doesn't hurt to try, but...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You were the one that said you wanted to try sets, though. Either you want to try them or you just leave them alone.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
About the only time I can at all foresee myself turning a character into a "project" is post-50 when I won't be getting any more enhancement slots anyway, but at that point I'll already have a full set commons anyway, and I'm still not convinced I want to get into Sets. I guess it doesn't hurt to try, but...
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You also are concerned with cost becoming an issue. You can either expect to make some adjustments to bring the cost issue under control or you can ignore costs as an issue.
But the general consensus is, sets are only as costly as you let them be, as useful as you want them to be and as necessary as you feel they should be. Set IOs aren't necessary for certain builds and I think SS/Inv Brute is one of those builds. I think you'd be perfectly happy with just common IOs. Why not hold off on set experimentation on a character that you want set IOs bad enough on...like a main character you want specifically to feel more powerful or a more unique build.
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Of all the characters I've ever made, Crash (my SS/Inv Brute) is easily in the top three in terms of importance, if not right at the top, so if I'll be investing the time and energy into making a build I may never want to replicate, she would be the right one to put it on.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But the general consensus is, sets are only as costly as you let them be, as useful as you want them to be and as necessary as you feel they should be. Set IOs aren't necessary for certain builds and I think SS/Inv Brute is one of those builds. I think you'd be perfectly happy with just common IOs. Why not hold off on set experimentation on a character that you want set IOs bad enough on...like a main character you want specifically to feel more powerful or a more unique build.
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I realise that the cost and benefit of sets can vary depending on how I want to use them. The question here stems from the fact that I already know how I WANT to use them. It's now a question of what that will cost and if that will make enough of a difference to justify that cost.
The way I'd like to use Invention Set enhancements is as a substitute for my current Common enhancements, not as an addition to them, which is to say I'd like to try to shoot for a build which is entirely made up of level 50 frankenslotted Invention set enhancements, or at the very least retain the ability to give all powers with "comparable" slotting the same kind. Truth be told, powers like Resist Physical Damage don't really benefit from frankenslotting, since they only have one effect anyway, so obviously it would be impractical to slot ALL powers with some frankenslotting of sets, but at least all attacks and all toggles would be a good goal, and with seven attacks and three toggles, perhaps a manageable one.
I say "perhaps" because I have no concept of what such a thing would cost.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, I say, if the character is important enough, then any cost is justified to a point. For my main, I really need that PVP -res proc to finish off his build and I'd go so far as to participate in PvP to get a better chance at it (or similarly priced drops). But then, I've never had any sort of hissy-fit point of view toward PvP, it's just another side of the game. That said, while I would do lots for this character's build, I wouldn't do something dumb like buying inf for it.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Of all the characters I've ever made, Crash (my SS/Inv Brute) is easily in the top three in terms of importance, if not right at the top, so if I'll be investing the time and energy into making a build I may never want to replicate, she would be the right one to put it on.
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So, if this Brute is so important to you, then it shouldn't be a big deal to sacrifice a little time (either to put down some bids and wait or dip into some marketeering or plan out a course of salvage/recipe transfers...anything to make things less painful) to draw out more uniqueness from your build...even less so if you aim low.
I frankenslot the hell out of every toon.
I rarely have a full set of anything(well thunderstrike multiple times on a singel blaster here and there).
To me, its all about the actual %value of the enhancements combined. So even my thugs/poison MM(arguably the most IOed toon I own), still has some level 25,30 and 40 enhancements in some powers...but the full value of the enhancement attribute is likely capped under ED rules.
I'm honestly not sure how to get around your issue with wanting to see all level 50 enhancements...it just seems insane to me once you get the max value for the attribute you're enhancing on the power. I'd even go so far as to say it's next to impossible in some instances.
I've seen cases where a level 50 recipe is selling for 10 million, but the level 45 is selling for 450k. Guess which one I bought!
As for the the market thing, I too don't have the time or patience to get into it seriously, but I'm thankfully well off enough that I can pay more for some of the insanely priced salvage/recipes when I don't want to wait.
I honestly think that the biggest weakness of the market is the fact that if you're into a toon now, you have to keep waiting a few days to make him more awesome each time you level. If I don't get a result from a bid within a day, I'll pay more just so I don't have to put 'placeholder enhancements' in slots that I want to slot with specific sets. That grinds my gears.
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Snipped for brevity (though you did leave out Titanium Coating for resistance |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
I'll come back to my earlier comment Sam.
Even if you ignore everything else Slot the 5-6 of each of the uncommons at 50 from the sets Crushing impact (melee) Thunderstrike (ranged) Multi Strike (PBAOE) Detonation (TAOE) Doctored Wounds (Heal) Red Fortune (def) And forget about the rest of it. |
).I knew if I read far enough in this thread somebody would say exactly what I had Mids open to say, with numbers.
The other bonus here? The level 50 recipes are generated in higher volume than any other level. The demand may be highest here, but so is the supply. Prices for uncommons really aren't so bad at level 50. Even crafted.
I bought 10 full sets of Thunderstrike shortly before the market merge, just to see if I could. They were all crafted, and I paid 650,000 per piece (because I don't like paying less than the crafting fee). When I've been too lazy to raid a base bin to find the right piece of Crushing Impact, I don't think I've ever spent more than 2-3 million crafted, and recipes can be had for even less.
The goods are out there at level 50, they're pretty affordable, and they will improve performance.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Pretty much, yeah. When I swap level brackets, one of the things I look forward to is that infusion of performance, and I just don't get that when I have to stagger that over days or even a week. Now, once I get to "the end" and there's nothing else to look forward to, enhancement-wise, than a slow upgrade into better enhancements, sure, that I can deal with... Maybe. But as for normal levelling, I'd sooner pay more and get my stuff right now.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
I honestly think that the biggest weakness of the market is the fact that if you're into a toon now, you have to keep waiting a few days to make him more awesome each time you level. If I don't get a result from a bid within a day, I'll pay more just so I don't have to put 'placeholder enhancements' in slots that I want to slot with specific sets. That grinds my gears.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
I bought 10 full sets of Thunderstrike shortly before the market merge, just to see if I could. They were all crafted, and I paid 650,000 per piece (because I don't like paying less than the crafting fee). When I've been too lazy to raid a base bin to find the right piece of Crushing Impact, I don't think I've ever spent more than 2-3 million crafted, and recipes can be had for even less.
The goods are out there at level 50, they're pretty affordable, and they will improve performance. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You buy commons? They is a rip off.
You can pick up set IOs for 100 inf or less.
I really should do something about this signature.
Some of those are pretty good ideas (except tickets, which require me to play the architect and EW!!!). The problem with longer-term planning, however, especially such that requires out-of-character resources (as in, the resources of other characters) is something that's hugely problematic given how I switch between them, and how I sometimes leave characters alone for years at a time, meaning their resources will be taking up space elsewhere.
For the moment, I realise I'm buying Commons at hugely inflated prices because of my impatience and laziness, but I seem to be able to absorb the cost just about every time, so I'd sooner do that if I had a choice.
The problem is that this really doesn't seem to apply to Uncommons, as their price, rarity and lack of recipes at the University really does mean I'll have to hoard recipes and salvage ahead of time. I actually used to try to do that - make up a huge list of what salvage I need for how many of which recipe and mail that to myself, but I quickly reqlised it's just a huge pain in the *** to keep track of those things, especially since the game doesn't give me any means to do so.
If I could, for example, make a planned build in the game and have it always track which recipes I need and what I need to make them all in real time automatically, then the process would be significantly easier, as I'd just make as I go. I know I can probably use Mids' for that, but even that doesn't actually track what I need RIGHT NOW, just what I need total overall.
Oh, and the text editor for e-mails is evil and it hates me. I refuse to use it ever again.