Legality and Age for Media
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2011-01-06 20:06 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Whatever Dur. If you want people to know something that you're thinking on a forum, don't allude. Write it down. I'm not a mind reader, I'm just reading what you wrote. And one thing you wrote and and then used as support for your belief about the Superman case seemed wrong, so I looked it up. It was wrong, and regardless of your beliefs about how copyright *should* work, it's not how they do work.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
No. Anyone who read what I said and wasn't trying to pick a fight would know that I disagree with the entirety of copyright law and that there are many things wrong with it that lead to ridiculous law suits. You must forgive me for expecting people to read and understand based on the full context of what I wrote and not pick at little things that are not relevant to the topic.
Again, "the way you thought," is a completely stupid thing to say. The only thing I got wrong is the length of time a copyright is in effect. What I thought and still think is correct. I also eluded to there being other things that go into effect which was the whole point of bringing up the Superman thing in the first place. |
I'm not saying people should constantly look things up, but if you have to put "i believe , I think" or other qualifiers before you make a statement about anything other than your opinion, maybe you should take a second and google. You might learn something.
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in a case of 'do as i say, not as i do'.......
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../10/c9214.html
"EMI Music Canada Inc., Sony Music Entertainment Canada Inc., Universal Music Canada Inc. and Warner Music Canada Co. have reached an agreement to pay songwriters and music publishers for outstanding "pending list" claims and to resolve a proposed class action lawsuit."
the tidbits = The CRIA members were hit with the lawsuit in October 2008, after artists decided to turn to the courts following decades of frustration with the rampant infringement (I am adviser to the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic, which is co-counsel, but have had no involvement in the case). The claims arise from a longstanding practice of the recording industry in Canada, described in the lawsuit as "exploit now, pay later if at all." It involves the use of works that are often included in compilation CDs (ie. the top dance tracks of 2009) or live recordings. The record labels create, press, distribute, and sell the CDs, but do not obtain the necessary copyright licences.
Instead, the names of the songs on the CDs are placed on a "pending list", which signifies that approval and payment is pending. The pending list dates back to the late 1980s, when Canada changed its copyright law by replacing a compulsory licence with the need for specific authorization for each use. It is perhaps better characterized as a copyright infringement admission list, however, since for each use of the work, the record label openly admits that it has not obtained copyright permission and not paid any royalty or fee.
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5563/125/
and, just to add, the 'settlement' had been sitting in a desk drawer collecting interest on the funds the entire time they were waiting for the 'artists' to call them and collect. the group can then be said to have made a profit from non payment.
ForbinProject said - "Funny thing about this issue is that every single person arguing they should be allowed to download stuff for free would be screaming bloody murder if they were the writer who wasn't getting paid for the stuff they wrote/created."
apparently they did. and apparently the DISTRIBUTION companies are the ones at fault here. i'd also be willing to bet various required body parts that the situation has not, and will not, change on the part of distribution companies pulling the dollar out for every penny passed on. every arguement i see on this topic ends up boiling down to 'save the artists' and you know what i AGREE. save the artists, and shoot the distributors.
oh, and just to add distribution infringement = 167$ per track in this cased. current law allows up to 20,000$ per track. that's less than 1% of the available penalty per track.
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From the other side...
An author who would be a bestseller if even half the pirated copies of her book turned into legitimate sales.
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Originally Posted by Furio
Yup. Support the artists, or they will be no more.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
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Also still you do not know if people will buy the book or not. They could in fact buy the book after some reading of it. There will be some that do not, but a way of course to circumvent that is host your own digital copy which people can get with easy access on their Kindle or Ipad.
Personally i like digital media and don't care for a physical copy so even if i want to buy it and do... I'm still going to pirate it. Make it available for digital distribution.
Starphoenix, we get it. Just pirate stuff and don't tell anyone.
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Not quite correct.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
it bothers me only when the same guy does it multiple times after it being explained.
And speaking on it legally is useless anyways because it's a 2 second convo that everyone knows the answer to ... "Is torrenting x legal" "no" where x represents most things people ask about... obviously some things are legal to torrent. |
Is torrenting legal?
Maybe.
Is torrenting content that doesn't belong to you legal?
No.
If I produce Hyperstrike's Happy HD Hum-Along, use all original music that I've written myself, encode it with an unencumbered codec and kick it up on BT, that's perfectly fine.
If I produce Hyperstrike Horrendous HD Hum-Along, use songs written by other artists (or just rip CDs of the songs), pirate some A/V software to produce and encode it, then kick it up to BT, it's NOT fine.
As with all things, the devil's in the details.
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Not that I think stealing this stuff is right, but there's a fallacy in here.|
Originally Posted by GibsonMcCoy
But it is hurting us. Everyone who uses the flawed notion that "I don't have the money, but I want it, so I'll download it," causes a rise in prices for those of us who do purchase the items, cause people who own the material, or get residuals from each showing to lose money.
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You're assuming that the people who pirate the stuff would have paid for it in the first place.
In a surprisingly large number of cases, this is Just Plain Wrong. So counting every instance of piracy as a "lost sale" is boneheaded (and I'm putting it politely).
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This causes prices to rise, and causes even more people to use the "I'll download it" train of thought. Yes, adults will make their own choice in life, but it's not just adults downloading stuff without paying for it. This thread isn't going to stop it, or even raise a small blip on the radar of those that do it but I think here's the ultimate "Why Not To Download" PSA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg Warning NSFW (Contains over-exaggerated violence) |
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The long and short of it is that there's an excessive amount of greed and entitlement issues on BOTH sides of this argument and no real desire to find a happy medium.
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Originally Posted by starphoenix
If some person downloaded a certain file, then there is a good chance that they wouldn't have even paid a cent to the company if it was only available for purchase. Therefore, the whole idea of companies losing money because of piracy is flawed since they would only lose some business due to piracy. There is also the issue of reselling. If I purchase a new car, then I can sell it to someone else. With downloads and computer games there is no value to the product. I can sell or give away old games to a friend, but some of the more recent ones I can't since they are attached to my account. Which is why I prefer businesses like Netflicks and official Online comics where you can watch or read as much as you want for a monthly fee.
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Originally Posted by ShadeovBlack
You do not deserve to get paid for making something, you deserve to get paid if you can get someone to pay you for making something.
If you cannot make money making something because of piracy, you do not deserve to make money. You will inevitably get what you deserve, because you deserve what you get. |
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This sums up everything very nicely. I applaud you Hyperstrike.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The long and short of it is that there's an excessive amount of greed and entitlement issues on BOTH sides of this argument and no real desire to find a happy medium.
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I was simply going by the pirates I know of personally. I used to work for a game company. Several times I was approached by people at conventions who would come and blather on and on about how they loved our game, and played it all the time, but they had trouble accessing user created content, which was a special section of the website where users could upload and download third party models, skins, etc.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Not that I think stealing this stuff is right, but there's a fallacy in here.
You're assuming that the people who pirate the stuff would have paid for it in the first place. In a surprisingly large number of cases, this is Just Plain Wrong. So counting every instance of piracy as a "lost sale" is boneheaded (and I'm putting it politely). |
When I would ask for their forum names or account information they would stare blankly and say, "Oh, I didn't buy your game, I bought HOT NEW GAME, and just downloaded yours."
But you're right in saying that not everyone who pirated it would have paid for it in the first place. My statement was kind of general and I should have been more specific.
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| Actually what's causing the price to rise are all the ludicrous forms of access control the content providers (not necessarily the content owners and producers) are opting to put into new content. Some of it so bad that it actually winds up penalizing legitimate users more than the lousy *bleep!* who steal the stuff. |
This I totally agree with. Well said.
My views on when it is (morally) acceptable to download things for free are:
Movies - After they have been shown on regular (non-premium channel) television.
TV shows - As soon as they are shown on a non-premium channel. Forgetting to set your DVR / VCR shouldn't mean having to buy a DVD.
Anime - As soon as the fansub is produced if it is being licensed by one of those companies who mutilate serious stories because they think all animation must be kid-friendly (hello, Funimation 
). If there's an English dub or official subtitled version that isn't censored then the "after it's been on TV" rule applies.
Software - Once it isn't available commercially any more, either because it is obsolete or the company that makes it has folded and no one took it over. (Feel free to download and play a cracked version of anything that has idiotic copy protection like StarForce that can screw up your computer, just buy the legit version first.)
Of course that's just my view on when it is morally acceptable. In the US, sadly the legal answer is generally about 50 years after whatever format it is in has become completely obsolete. Even if there's no chance of a legit version ever being offered again. 
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When the person who produced the content says that it's okay or when it hits the public domain. Not a nanosecond before.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
My views on when it is (morally) acceptable to download things for free are:
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Remember movies tend to be edited for content, time and language for TV. Therefore what you download is closer to what you would get on a DVD, which you would have to pay for.
TV networks are getting better at providing ways for the average viewer to catch up on missed or truncated episodes for FREE. Nearly all the major broadcast US networks provide the last five episodes of the current running series online either at their own network website or Hulu. Only CBS is somewhat stingy with free replays. This assumes the primary reason people seek out ways to download an episode of a currently running series is to catch up and not collect the season for future viewing.
Even BBC America caught a glimmer of understanding why fans of Doctor Who in the US are torrenting down the series. We don't want to wait weeks or months from when it was shown in the UK and we don't want to watch an edited for time version so BBC America can stuff in another three commercials an hour for The Graham Norton Show that's already two months old. So surprise, we get to see the latest Doctor Who Christmas special on Christmas. What a concept.
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This is how it is in the states which is a great reception. But in Canada it is not the same, we are denied anything like this for various reasons. We are only just getting some help with it on Netflix Canada.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Remember movies tend to be edited for content, time and language for TV. Therefore what you download is closer to what you would get on a DVD, which you would have to pay for.
TV networks are getting better at providing ways for the average viewer to catch up on missed or truncated episodes for FREE. Nearly all the major broadcast US networks provide the last five episodes of the current running series online either at their own network website or Hulu. Only CBS is somewhat stingy with free replays. This assumes the primary reason people seek out ways to download an episode of a currently running series is to catch up and not collect the season for future viewing. Even BBC America caught a glimmer of understanding why fans of Doctor Who in the US are torrenting down the series. We don't want to wait weeks or months from when it was shown in the UK and we don't want to watch an edited for time version so BBC America can stuff in another three commercials an hour for The Graham Norton Show that's already two months old. So surprise, we get to see the latest Doctor Who Christmas special on Christmas. What a concept. |
It is still good to see for people to have this option if they do not have a DVR system.
Well I just found out that everything isn't all peaches and gravy (???) here either. It seems that ABC decided NOT to put any of the second season of V on their site or Hulu, only telling us after two episodes aired.
Gee thanks ABC, I guess I have no reason to tune into your serialized TV series for the rest of the season since I can't catch up. Actually it sounds like they've given up hope for the series and are simply gave up that time slot to American Idol when it starts.
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Well I could cope with no V in the internet, cause it would mean trying to get it through netflix or DVR....but putting American Idol over it that is a travesty!
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Well I just found out that everything isn't all peaches and gravy (???) here either. It seems that ABC decided NOT to put any of the second season of V on their site or Hulu, only telling us after two episodes aired.
Gee thanks ABC, I guess I have no reason to tune into your serialized TV series for the rest of the season since I can't catch up. Actually it sounds like they've given up hope for the series and are simply gave up that time slot to American Idol when it starts. |
No Idol is on Fox, I'm saying ABC simply has accepted that Fox will own that time slot the same way ABC owned Monday nights at the beginning of the season with Dancing With The Stars. Doesn't matter what you have up against it since a good size chunk will be watching them.
So instead of ABC trying to put something very good from their schedule against Idol, they are happy to put a series that I doubt will have a 3rd half season. However to maximize ratings and possible future DVD sales, they won't provide replay online.
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As much as I hate to say it, downloading, technically speaking, is NOT theft. |
Originally Posted by QuiJon
It is not moral to steal no matter if the the product your stealing has value to you personally or not. You previous statement was basicly," if i wouldnt have bought it anyway im not stealing. " There are plenty of things i wouldnt buy, but if i took without paying for is still stealing. I wouldnt buy a Ford Mustang, that doesnt them mean i can walk onto a lot and drive off with one since they wouldnt have gotten my money for it anyway.
And before arguing that a physical item isnt the same as a download, yes it is, in the manner that its still a product you can obtain use for that should have been purchased if you wanted to obtain ANY leve of use from it. |
Per wiki
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| A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it. |
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Originally Posted by Gorndt
I think the law ought to be changed to say that if an IP hasn't been used for profit in 10 years, it's no longer protected and be surrendered to public domain. ...
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Siegel & Shuster and the rights to Superman are a special case because of how it was done initially. (Superman being sold to DC by outside parties, instead of someone who worked for DC creating the character) If memory serves the whole thing is only even possible because of a particular bill that was passed a while back that retroactively gave the heirs of S&S a chance to try to get the rights to Superman back.
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Originally Posted by ShadeovBlack
You do not deserve to get paid for making something, you deserve to get paid if you can get someone to pay you for making something.
If you cannot make money making something because of piracy, you do not deserve to make money. You will inevitably get what you deserve, because you deserve what you get. |
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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You're depriving the creator of royalties. Therefore, it is theft.
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Originally Posted by Agonus
As much as I hate to say it, downloading, technically speaking, is NOT theft.
Per wiki Notice the bold. For theft to occur, something has to be physically taken away from the owner, and in the case of downloading, you're only taking a copy. It's a big game of semantics, sure, but that's what some "filesharing" advocates use as justification. And if anything is ever going to be done to stop/slow/handle the whole filesharing mess, that definition will need to be adjusted for digital media. As I understood it a while ago, one of the main "issues" with the law is that Disney constantly lobbies to get the copyright law timeframes lengthened so they can keep the rights to their characters. They're terrified of, say, Mickey Mouse ever becoming public domain. Siegel & Shuster and the rights to Superman are a special case because of how it was done initially. (Superman being sold to DC by outside parties, instead of someone who worked for DC creating the character) If memory serves the whole thing is only even possible because of a particular bill that was passed a while back that retroactively gave the heirs of S&S a chance to try to get the rights to Superman back. /Morbo : "ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!" |
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So instead of using the term piracy it should be called forgery? Interesting.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Notice the bold. For theft to occur, something has to be physically taken away from the owner, and in the case of downloading, you're only taking a copy. It's a big game of semantics, sure, but that's what some "filesharing" advocates use as justification. And if anything is ever going to be done to stop/slow/handle the whole filesharing mess, that definition will need to be adjusted for digital media.
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| You're depriving the creator of royalties. Therefore, it is theft. |
Personally, I think the only way to combat forgery is for the artists to go after the bittorrent and other P2P sites with a cease and desist letter since music companies has lost almost all credibility. After all as recent news has shown, music companies are bigger crooks than any person who uses P2P software to download music.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
Yes, strictly legalese speaking, Copyright Infringement is not "theft".
Theft has it's own distinct definition.
Copyright Infringement is Copyright Infringement.
That said, it's stlll illegal. And for a lot of folks immoral and unethical.
-np
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*You* do not deserve free stuff.
This is a bit dated (three years ago). Still it is *not* just young people.
Also another interesting article which came out last year stating that the increase in Revenue and sales for the music industry:
Link