A Different Sort of Question. (Touchy subject matter ahoy!)
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2011-01-04 21:11 in Virtue
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This makes sense.|
Originally Posted by The_Spartan
Not naw, but HELL naw. Dude, you basically just said "Uh, wait until you're just about to cyborz before you say 'I hay, I got a pen0r, kekeke! Still wanna go through w/it?' and that is foul.
See, UNLIKE IRL, we can't see the undeniable features that many intersexed people have. Adam's apples, shoulder and hip structure and things of that nature that tend to give it away. You can play "The Crying Game" if you want, but I don't think there's any harm in using the tag. The tag's a courtesy. Stop worrying about what sounds politically correct and what doesn't. You should be more concerned with how it's gonna affect the quality of whatever relationships you develop both ICly and OOCly. Might as well be upfront 'bout it all. Sure, you'll get a leg humper or eight, but there ain't no damn futa-burnin' party out there lookin' to tie you to the front a buick and crash it into burnin' buildin'. Sure, there are some lold*ckgirl" type folks out there, they're everywhere. That's why we have the ignore button. Funny how so many folks forget 'bout that thing. You're really making this more complicated than it has to be. |
And, unless there's something else you'd prefer, I'd go with the Intersexed tag. It's shorter and less specific than hermaphrodite and doesn't have the ERP connotations of Futa.
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
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which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)
There is one tag you can use which should clarify your roleplay style and expectations:
[Immersive Roleplayer]
Add this to your bio, don't worry about the futa tag, and people should understand that you're playing your character, not a steriotype.
Myself, I don't have too much experience with this genre. I mostly play male characters, with a total of 6 main male chars against 2 main female chars just because that's my comfort zone.
I have one female char who I had to shelve at lv 29 because she got involved in RP that ended up with her magic'd into a futa. OOC I wasn't sure how the heck to handle this, so IC she broke down, hung up her cape, moved away to somewhere in the states where nobody would recognise her, and tries to live a 'normal' life.
Y'know, like how the majority of cissexual women would propably react to magically sprouting male genitals.
I do know one intersexed person, and they actually enjoy futa RP, as it lets them have somewhere they can express themselves and be appreciated and even lusted after in a safe environment. I know one case isn't a scientific sampling of the population, but I doubt you're at risk of seriously offending anyone with your RP, or your inclination towards such.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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....You weren't? Here. Lemme help you.
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Originally Posted by Acanous_Quietus
I have one female char who I had to shelve at lv 29 because she got involved in RP that ended up with her magic'd into a futa. OOC I wasn't sure how the heck to handle this |
"People who take offense to IC actions OOCly need to learn to differentiate between the two... Or change their damn meds."
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One of the things I find frustrating about RP in video games is that people tend to shy away from playing their characters in ways that make their characters look stupid.|
Originally Posted by Catministrator
Just to quote this a second time... because I really don't know how I missed the chance to clarify this the first round: This is the precisely the kind of RP I'd like to have for characters like Eri. Those little life-moments that help define whom a personality truly is; from the funny to the uncomfortable - the distraught to the resolute - the flights of fancy to the serious... It's these kinds of things, in particular, that I most like to envision when I sit down to write my intersexed characters. Character development. That, I think, is the real core of it. True enough, such things could handily be done regardless of one's sex; but for me, at least, it's those special moments that arise when you don't neatly fall into either that thrill me the most.
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One of the all time best D&D games we ever had involved a half-orc barbarian who, convinced that Something Serious Was Happening, would not stop at ANYTHING until he had talked to the Mayor. He didn't actually know what to say, or have a good idea of what he could accomplish, but it was Time To Talk To The Mayor. So he was at City Hall trying to get in (after hours), lifting city guards and shaking them and yelling "I NEED TO TALK TO THE MAYOR. NOW."
This was awesome.
People love to look suave and smart and like they're on top of things, but it's not really what happens. Real people who've never met a transgendered person* before tend to be overwhelmed with questions they are too polite to ask. Bring in a drunk redneck, and HILARITY ENSUES.
I think the thing is... If you don't want ERP, the solution is not to hint or warn people that you don't want ERP, but to react in-character to the unwelcome in-character advances, if that makes any sense.
A while back, some guy asked my "fire blaster whose powers come from embarassment, thus, she wouldn't be caught dead in her costume" whether I ERP. At the time, I went with "not unless you're my spouse", which I was informed was "respectable" (and a minute later "disappointing, but respectable). That was creepy.
You know what? If the guy had just hit on me in character, it would have been a great opportunity for this character whose costume is designed to scream BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS at you to get all embarassed and explode in fire. Which would have been fun, not creepy.
So... If you wanna play this character, just be emotionally prepared to play through whatever happens, and try to remember to consider whether the character finds something creepy or friendly. You'll get everything from people who are convinced that you're doing it to invite sex to people who have a RL friend who just came out as trans and you're the closest they've met to someone who can tell them what to think about this.
Life. It's what happens.
[*] Sheesh. Apparently, the word which is short for either "transgendered person" or "transmission" is considered cussing. That's sad. I use this word IRL when talking to such people, and none of them have yet hit me for it, I assumed it wasn't all that offensive.
So, since this thread started, a guy on another board I frequent just had a very visible meltdown. He's sorta not-sane to begin with, but the topic of his meltdown was his belief that any and all transgendered people should be killed, and that anyone who doesn't think this is obviously the case ought to be locked up or put in a reeducation camp.
Why?
Well, see. If there exist any transgendered people, it's possible that you could end up having gay sex by accident, says he.
Now, I personally think the guy is pretty much insane, and if he weren't so pathetic, I'd consider him a danger to himself or others. (Luckily, the possibility of this nightmare scenario coming to pass is suitably remote; there is no way he will ever come into romantic contact with another human.)
But even though he is, to put it mildly, overreacting... This kind of thing can be a major source of squick for some people.
"Squick", if you haven't heard the term before, is a recentish coinage for "things that disgust you strongly" with the specific connotation of not making a moral judgement. It's there to distinguish between "this is repulsive and no one should be allowed to do it" and "this is repulsive to me personally and I'd prefer not to hear about it". There's a sort of two-way street here. Someone who is squicked by a given thing is carefully not making a moral judgement about it -- but is also at the very least hinting strongly that they don't have the option of just not minding it.
And that's where you run into an issue, which is that part of what makes RP fun for people is a sort of general consensus that we all know other people have boundaries and comfort zones, and that most of the time, people would rather you not push them far out of their comfort zones. And whether or not we like that people are seriously squicked by intersex people, trannies, and the like, some of them are, and it's not reasonable to expect them to magically lose their squick.
So if you're doing something where you know that a lot of people will find it very squicky, you probably ought to warn people in advance. It's a sort of meta-politeness thing.
I guess, the point here isn't just to ensure that the sort of RP you like happens, but to help ensure that other people don't get into something they find really disturbing. So I see the tag as a sort of compromise; it slightly hurts you chances of getting the kind of interactions you really want, but it massively reduces the chances of other people getting into something that freaks them out. From a net social benefit standpoint, I think it's a win. It is a kindness to people who would rather stay in their comfort zones, and one of the things that I think is important in RP is that it be safe enough for people to dabble a little and have it stay safe and fun.
((Note: Nonstandard Morphology))
And leave it at that.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
Seebs, that's a rather interesting conundrum.
How best to let someone 'see it coming' without actually, you know, being overt about it?
This calls to mind a rather strange fact about Iran. See, Muslim law has a REALLY BIG PROBLEM with homosexuality, to the point of throwing gay folks in jail or outright killing them. However... there's no real edict about switching genders.
This makes Iran a rather progressive country when it comes to people getting sex changes. Many get the procedures/hormone therapy/etc paid by their healthcare coverage.
Something to think about - if someone was born a man, and switched to a woman via hormone therapy and surgery, do we still think of them as male, or female? Or are they 'in between' (intersexed)? What about F2M changes?
Personally, while I am very happily 'taken', if I were single I'd not let something as simple as a y chromosome get in the way of a good relationship, as long as my partner had the looks and personality that attracted me to them. The 'wrong' parts downstairs might be a bit of a squick, but not so much that I'd run screaming. Others may have more of an issue with it, tho'.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
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Ooh, I'm a bit guilty of this at times, but I've got a few characters that exist pretty much exclusively to seem not be suave. (Though one happens to be a little kid, so looking suave and smart compared to adults would ruin the immersion!)|
Originally Posted by seebs
People love to look suave and smart and like they're on top of things, but it's not really what happens.
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Originally Posted by seebs
I think the thing is... If you don't want ERP, the solution is not to hint or warn people that you don't want ERP, but to react in-character to the unwelcome in-character advances, if that makes any sense.
[...] You know what? If the guy had just hit on me in character, it would have been a great opportunity for this character whose costume is designed to scream BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS at you to get all embarassed and explode in fire. Which would have been fun, not creepy. |
I've had a couple of situations like that happen to me. My solution? Well, since I was on my excessively snarky toon, I just shot back any smart *** reply I could think of. I'm not sure how the other party felt, but they seemed to be talking in character, so I'm assuming they recognized that I was in character, and thus didn't take it personally...
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Originally Posted by seebs
[*] Sheesh. Apparently, the word which is short for either "transgendered person" or "transmission" is considered cussing. That's sad. I use this word IRL when talking to such people, and none of them have yet hit me for it, I assumed it wasn't all that offensive.
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Originally Posted by Rabid_Metroid
((Note: Nonstandard Morphology))
And leave it at that. |
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Originally Posted by Soul Train
The 'wrong' parts downstairs might be a bit of a squick, but not so much that I'd run screaming. Others may have more of an issue with it, tho'.
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From a legal standpoint you're protected, and meant to be treated, as the gender which you identify and present as - be that male to female, or female to male, or whichever. This covers you under discrimination, any partnerships you might strike up and so on.|
Originally Posted by Soul Train
Something to think about - if someone was born a man, and switched to a woman via hormone therapy and surgery, do we still think of them as male, or female? Or are they 'in between' (intersexed)? What about F2M changes?
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Ethically though....ehhhhh. I'm naive enough to hope the majority of people ascribe to the same belief I do, and go with the 'who they identify as' mindset, but not so stupid as to think this is the case in practise. A lot of progression needs to be made on that front, bleh.
In Highschool my Algebras' teacher's son actually had hormonal imbalances to where he grew bewbs, he was still strait and considered himself so. The only time this would drastically affect someone is when they're still developing in the womb.
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You mean your Algebra teacher's son, right?|
Originally Posted by Stryph
In Highschool my Algebra's son actually had hormonal imbalances to where he grew bewbs, he was still strait and considered himself so. The only time this would drastically affect someone is when they're still developing in the whom.
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And it's 'womb'. (Sorry to go off topic with the grammar Nazi tangent, but... uh... Bad habit of mine?)
The extent to which HRT effects an individual person varies quite widely, actually. Some people are unfortunate enough to just about even out the hormonal levels, while others would develop and change to quite a significant degree. It's biology, not a binary yes/no thing.
We're talking about your medical history, your testosterone levels, age, height, weight, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
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As someone who was born in Iran, I have to say that statement is false. Iran doesn't explicitly follow "Muslim Law" (even though it claims otherwise). If there are any procedures or therapies to get sex changes, they would be done under the table as the government (which believes it is representing Islam, which it is not) sees anything that is not a heterosexual male or heterosexual female as a sinner and an abomination that is punishable by law.
Originally Posted by Soul Train
This calls to mind a rather strange fact about Iran. See, Muslim law has a REALLY BIG PROBLEM with homosexuality, to the point of throwing gay folks in jail or outright killing them. However... there's no real edict about switching genders.
This makes Iran a rather progressive country when it comes to people getting sex changes. Many get the procedures/hormone therapy/etc paid by their healthcare coverage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
I try to build flaws into most of my characters. It makes for better roleplay, although in some cases it's really hard to play it straight.
on topic of gender reassignment surgery, personally I find it to be more cosmetic mutilation than an actual change in gender. Not that I judge anyone who wants it or has gone through it. Until there is an actual change from male to female reproductive capabilities (Or the reverse), the subject has just changed from gender x to gender neuter.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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"Reproductive capabilities"...? So what do you think of think of people who are sterile?|
Originally Posted by Acanous_Quietus
I try to build flaws into most of my characters. It makes for better roleplay, although in some cases it's really hard to play it straight.
on topic of gender reassignment surgery, personally I find it to be more cosmetic mutilation than an actual change in gender. Not that I judge anyone who wants it or has gone through it. Until there is an actual change from male to female reproductive capabilities (Or the reverse), the subject has just changed from gender x to gender neuter. |
EDIT: In addition, it's called 'sexual reassignment surgery' for a reason. Definition wise, 'sex' refers to the physical characteristics, while gender is the mental aspect. So no, there would not be a change in gender from a surgery, only a change in sex.
Sterile how? Old age? Surgery? Born Sterile? It makes a difference.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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How does it make a difference?|
Originally Posted by Acanous_Quietus
Sterile how? Old age? Surgery? Born Sterile? It makes a difference.
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If they're sterile from old age, does that mean they're not an old man or an old woman, but an old 'neuter'? Would ovarian or testicular cancer, which might require removal of the reproductive organs, make them less of a man or a woman? If they are born sterile, does that mean they'll never be a man or a woman?
Really, now, if you want to argue physical characteristics... Go right on ahead. But please, explain, because I don't understand how it makes a difference.
Being born sterile would make you fall under "Disabled". Old age, and you are still male or female, but passed the sexually abled stage of your life cycle. Finally, in case of surgery, yes, you have been neutered. That's sort of the definition of the term.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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I wasn't aware that there was a 'Disabled' gender or sex.
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Originally Posted by Acanous_Quietus
Being born sterile would make you fall under "Disabled". Old age, and you are still male or female, but passed the sexually abled stage of your life cycle. Finally, in case of surgery, yes, you have been neutered. That's sort of the definition of the term.
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Physically disabled is not a gender or sex, but it is a category people of a gender or sex can fall into. If you are physically sexually disabled, you may also fall under gender neutral, depending on the extent of the handicap.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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Being sterile wouldn't affect one's gender label...but considering that sterility is the physical inability to do something that a healthy/"normal" person can do (reproduce) it would count as a literal disability, in a technical sense - though it's not often referred to as a disability.
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Originally Posted by Kiana Wolf
I wasn't aware that there was a 'Disabled' gender or sex.
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Why did I -know- I would be slapped in the face with a Wikipedia article for my previous post? xD
Originally Posted by Soul Train
Aw, it's OK Bright, we all still like your dancing sister of battle avatar 
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
Although those details might not be relevent in this case. After all, alien species, those-are-sex-linked-traits-for-you-huh-human-physiology-sure-is-weird, yadda yadda yadda.
I don't know. The idea seems pretty simple, given a classification set which I think someone suggested in a post I can't find now. What to put in a bio so that people who are completely repulsed by the concept can avoid (which seems like a reasonable courtesy in the general case), that people who *aren't* completely repulsed would not see as something to avoid. (With a useful bonus being to also drive off people who are only interested in shallow ERP, perhaps.)
I kind of like the idea of having it mentioned in with (and in the style of) the rest of the bio, simply because anyone who's actually serious ought to be able to take the time to read your bio. And even if they don't recognize a term, I don't think that's so likely to lead to direct issues.
-Morgan. Of course, I'm the type of person who just made a character with a concept that sounds like a reason for shallow ERP largely to blatantly not do any ERP, so my tastes may vary from the usual...