A Different Sort of Question. (Touchy subject matter ahoy!)

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Originally Posted by Catministrator Just to quote this a second time... because I really don't know how I missed the chance to clarify this the first round: This is the precisely the kind of RP I'd like to have for characters like Eri. Those little life-moments that help define whom a personality truly is; from the funny to the uncomfortable - the distraught to the resolute - the flights of fancy to the serious... It's these kinds of things, in particular, that I most like to envision when I sit down to write my intersexed characters. Character development. That, I think, is the real core of it. True enough, such things could handily be done regardless of one's sex; but for me, at least, it's those special moments that arise when you don't neatly fall into either that thrill me the most.

Then the only way you can get a universal, unbiased, and "surprising" reaction to this particular detail of your character, is to just not put it in your character description and let people find out on their own, through the way your play the character.

Think about it. Imagine the same Pixie scenario. If you put the "tag" in your character description, three scenarios would happen:

1. The player of the Pixie is turned off and just draws a big red circle around your character for a variety of unknown reasons, such as them thinking you're just here for ERP.

2. The player of the Pixie is turned on by this and would immediately approach your character because of a variety of unknown reasons, such as them finding this character detail interesting, or maybe they'd wanna get frisky and it's their thing.

3. The RP flows naturally and the player pretends they don't even know this detail. This RP could end bad or good depending on the characters.

However, if you don't put the tag, only one thing can happen: The RP flows naturally, the player doesn't know this detail, and the RP could end bad, good, comical, uncomfortable, awkward, funny, romantic, or a variety of other scenarios.

To me, the latter scenario is more fun. Because I like to let RP happen and sit back and watch my characters interact with others rather than trying to guide or force RP.

And those three things are precisely the central issue, for me. I see that inclusion of the tag as a way to filter out the first two entirely. The second on is a bit more difficult - but it's the first one that I'd like to completely negate. If my character is going to be a turn-away for someone; then I think it's only fair to let them know in a passive way that lets them see it before they even start the interaction.

It's the folk I'm more interested in, anyhow, who can see a tag and still pull a number three.

Edit: Or, to clarify a bit: I don't mind if someone draws a big, red circle around my character because my character isn't something they're interested in. I'd encourage that, even. If it's not one's thing, it's not one's thing - and that doesn't bother me a bit. The second is... Well. I just said I'd like to avoid it; but I'll admit - I misread just a moment ago. The second is something I'd like, as well. If they're approaching for the wrong reasons, then I can do my best to clarify my intents - but at least they're approaching out of honest-to-goodness interest. Number three is the big goal, in essence. Someone sees the character; decides they're interested in the material - and then let's it flow naturally from there.

What Bright Shadow is saying is that if the third is the goal, then not putting something is the best way to achieve it.

There's no way to put down everything that might turn another player off in a nice easy to read list, because people vary too much.

Put what people need to know in order to understand your depiction of the character in your description, and let everything else go naturally. If someone spazzes about a facet of your character when it comes up, well, that can happen about a lot of things under a lot of circumstances.

Sticking labels out front is going to make it more likely to filter out potential positive experiences, because of the potential for people to go "Oh, well, you're nothing more than an ERPer, there's nothing for me here."

And while some folks might say "Well, their fault for not being open minded" (and I have heard this from some folks before), my response has generally been: when you stick labels on your characters you're opting into a stereotype.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

And I'm saying that "not using a label" is not an option for me. I'm not saying it's not the best option - but it's one I refuse to consider, to put it a bit more boldly. I'm not trying to cut the stereotyping completely out of the equation - there's simply no way to do that while sticking to my guns. I do, however, believe that it can be cut down on by adopting some other means of phrase; and then associating what I do with that.

Why is a publicly displayed label important to you?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

Just went back and re-read this.. This seems to hint at something important in perspective.

I'd like to suggest an idea: Sometimes, not saying something is the best way to make sure it's heard.

When you try to distill some things to a simple phrase or a single word, you lose important meaning. You take away context, and you make it so that it's difficult for your audience to hear the actual message. They see the catch phrase, and then everything else that might change the meaning is missed.

Not mentioning something isn't hiding it, it's ensuring that when it comes up, it comes up in its proper context, and is seen as it truly is.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

Again; courtesy to my fellow RPers. There are people who aren't going to like the material - and I'd like for those people to be able to see it and move on without saying a word; no trouble on anyone's part.

And then there are folk who -are- interested in the material; either in a superficial level or one similar to my own.

In the end, it's a way of filtering out the folk I might be interested in interacting with from the folk I might not be - and whom, similarly, might not be interested in interacting with my characters. Without hunting down every last one and offering a lecture.

Still, I feel it deserves a certain level of... tact... beyond a mere.. ahem.. 'lolfuta' tag.

But not listing it isn't the way to go. Call me a bull-headed lassie if you must; but the option was never part of my original considerations - and was never meant to be something to discuss in my own, personal case. It's still worth talking about for others, though, I think. You bring up good ideas! They just aren't what I'm, personally, looking for here.

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Originally Posted by Catministrator And I'm saying that "not using a label" is not an option for me. I'm not saying it's not the best option - but it's one I refuse to consider, to put it a bit more boldly. I'm not trying to cut the stereotyping completely out of the equation - there's simply no way to do that while sticking to my guns. I do, however, believe that it can be cut down on by adopting some other means of phrase; and then associating what I do with that.

See, here's the thing. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to achieve.

Including the label would filter your RP to only those who would enjoy this particular detail about your character. As sad is it sound, you wouldn't get a lot of people to go "Oh, this character is a Futa/Intersex/Whatever! But I'm going to not meta game and have my straight male character to approach her and hit on her anyways, cause that's what my character would do in such a situation!" (e.g. Scenario #3 in my previous post) short of your close RP friends.

If that is what you want, as in you want to RP only with characters and players who would be interested in such a thing, then sure...go ahead, go nuts and include the label!

But if you want to not filter out your RP and experience your character realistically (e.g. Some people would make fun of her, some people would find her awkward, some people might love her, some people would be curious about her), then putting the tag would not help you even remotely achieve this.

Humh. How to put this in a simpler light...

The kind of RPers I like best are the folk who can read such things as a 'label' and then act as if it didn't exist, in-character. I like to believe that most good RPers are of this sort - and those are the kind of people who, I feel, are also the most likely to provide what I'm after. On the same token, not all of those same people are going to enjoy the nature of the character - why, they might even find it downright disgusting and offensive. Then, as a means of avoiding potential out-of-character conflict later on down the road as one person might discover something that completely drives them away on an out-of-character basis - even after hours upon hours of involvement - it's worked best, for me, to simply have it out up-front before anyone becomes involved.

... I'm not quite sure that was it. Does that make any more sense?

Let me put it this way.

If I started RPing with someone, and something like this ended up somehow coming up in RP, and wasn't thrown into people's faces, I'd roll with it, go with how my character would go, and story would move on.

If I came across someone, and a label like this was in their bio, I'd pass them up and look for other people to interact with.

Because if you willingly choose to stick a label like that on yourself, with all of the controversy that goes with it, then you're saying "Yeah, I'm part of all that."

Coming up with a new label and putting it on yourself isn't very viable either, because THEN you have to explain it to everyone who goes "What does that mean?" and unless you want to go into a long in-depth character-based conversation every time, you'll have to fall back on existing terminology, which has the same problem as just using it in the first place, except then you've had to spend the time typing it by hand instead of having it in your description. Or putting it in a bind, which is kind of weird.

Ultimately, if you're really trying to play a character that isn't defined by this one trait, putting a label in place IS a misrepresentation, and it's not a courtesy to anyone.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

Quite plainly, I've met enough folk who -don't- assume this whole 'Label = stereotype' thing to know better. If someone wants to feel that way - all right and well enough. But they're not the sort of person I'm looking for or catering to, either.

For me, this is a "simple" matter of Male, Female, Inter. For the most part, nobody labels 'Male' and 'Female' - they don't have to. It's usually a safe assumption based on appearance alone. But if it weren't? It might be nice to know. In this case, this isn't something that can be assumed on outwards appearances. Thus, it requires something if you want people to know; and I do want people to know. If they want to make a bunch of assumptions about it; then fie on them. The best I can do is find a happy medium somewhere.

Edit: Though, perhaps that's not quite entirely accurate, either. This would be agood time to step away from the conversation for a few and do some thinking, methinks.

Then you're just looking for justification for your trolling for futa-on-X dockings.

Oh you rascal!

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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress If I started RPing with someone, and something like this ended up somehow coming up in RP, and wasn't thrown into people's faces, I'd roll with it, go with how my character would go, and story would move on. If I came across someone, and a label like this was in their bio, I'd pass them up and look for other people to interact with.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say. And I imagine that's how most people who don't know Carministrator, as the player, would react. You have to be realistic and understand that being a "good roleplayer" or "professional roleplayer" (for lack of a better term) is a very, very, very loose and subjective term. And that people who share your particular RP traits or standards (regardless of what they are) are usually very few. So if you want to spark a lot of interaction with total strangers (both characters and players), you need to at least partially consider the "majority" and the "norm", be it positive or negative.

Ah! And here I think we've found the point I completely failed to make when I really should have. I knew there was something I'd missed.

I know all too well that the folk I'm looking for are very few; but those are the only people I -really- wanted to get involved in deep RP with. I've never RP'd in CoX before - I learned somewhere else; and I've noticed that things take on a much faster, indirect style than I'm comfortable with. I like to sit back, take my time, and get.. well.. wordy, with it. I don't think this is something the faster-paced folk are going to like, so I don't really mind saving them the trouble entirely if it means an easier time finding the minority I want. It's the main reason I just plain didn't consider this issue; or consider RPing, for that matter; for so many years. I'm not sure what I want and what's available are really a comfortable mesh.

Hmh.. I don't know if I'd call it 'good' or 'professional', though... I see it as a stylistic choice, more than anything. Poor choice of words on my part again!

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Originally Posted by Catministrator Ah! And here I think we've found the point I completely failed to make when I really should have. I knew there was something I'd missed. I know all too well that the folk I'm looking for are very few; but those are the only people I -really- wanted to get involved in deep RP with. I've never RP'd in CoX before - I learned somewhere else; and I've noticed that things take on a much faster, indirect style than I'm comfortable with. I like to sit back, take my time, and get.. well.. wordy, with it. I don't think this is something the faster-paced folk are going to like, so I don't really mind saving them the trouble entirely if it means an easier time finding the minority I want. It's the main reason I just plain didn't consider this issue; or consider RPing, for that matter; for so many years. I'm not sure what I want and what's available are really a comfortable mesh. Hmh.. I don't know if I'd call it 'good' or 'professional', though... I see it as a stylistic choice, more than anything. Poor choice of words on my part again!

And I think I fail to see is how you're relating your genre of RP to your style of RP. Just because someone may avoid you due to a certain tag in your character description, it doesn't mean they are "fast paced" or "wordy" RPers. And someone who approaches your character regardless of your character tags may or may not share the same style of RP.

Unless you have a tag in your bio that reads something like "Literate and Patient RP only, please!" (which would make you look like a total snob, in my humble opinion!), then there is no way to avoid certain styles of RP that you wish to avoid.

If you put "Futa" or "Intersex" or whatever in your character description, what's stopping someone who is interested in that sort of thing to come up to you and be like:

[Local] Awesome Dude: hey bb wut up
[Local] Awesome Dude: u wana drink???

If you put "Futa" or "Intersex" or whatever in your character description, what's stopping someone who is interested in that sort of thing to come up to you and be like:

Awesome Dude walks up to Random Gal, offering her a little smile. He looks about and takes a deep sigh, a playful look on his eyes before finally looking up to her. "Hey there. You looked like you could use a company." After a soft chuckle, he offers his right hand politely, a genuine smile on his expression. "I'm Matthew, by the way. Could I...interest you in a drink?"

None of those scenarios have any relation to what your character is carrying between her legs, or whether or not the player has any knowledge of what your character is carrying between her legs.

And this is going far too into something that wasn't, initially, the idea. Regardless of what my reasons are - and I probably should have said that in the first place, rather than try and explain things... Goodness knows that's a sure-fire way to confuse even myself!... I am set - permanently, immovably set - on the idea of finding some way to indicate what I want to indicate without being overtly sexual about it.

But this might be a better dissuasion: Yes, I am, in fact, what you'd call a 'snob'. I see it more as sticking to strictly what I enjoy without looking low on folk who prefer things I don't... but, fleh. Debating that sort of thing never works out very well for anyone!

Though I should probably add... That 'light banter' RP.. the casual, fast-paced content.. I'm not looking for a tag for that. I can do those; but they aren't my main goal; nor what I enjoy the most. As has been said - it's not needed, there. But the more in-depth, time-consuming ventures - the lengthy developments I really aim for. Those kinds of things, I do want a tag for. These are the kinds of things that require a heavy amount of investment from the get-go; and nobody wants to make those kinds of efforts only to have them explode and dissolve later on because of something that could have been noted in the very beginning. A tag is just a simpler way of doing that without telling every single person who express interest "Oh hey, by the way..." - which gets enough sour reactions in it's own right.

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Originally Posted by Catministrator And this is going far too into something that wasn't, initially, the idea. Regardless of what my reasons are - and I probably should have said that in the first place, rather than try and explain things... Goodness knows that's a sure-fire way to confuse even myself!... I am set - permanently, immovably set - on the idea of finding some way to indicate what I want to indicate without being overtly sexual about it. But this might be a better dissuasion: Yes, I am, in fact, what you'd call a 'snob'. I see it more as sticking to strictly what I enjoy without looking low on folk who prefer things I don't... but, fleh. Debating that sort of thing never works out very well for anyone!

I wasn't debating, nor was I calling you a snob. I was merely trying to understand what you're trying to gain so I can try and give you a more helpful feedback. And I still don't see how indicating your character's sex, gender, or sexual preference helps you filter out unwanted style of RP. But okay!

D'oh. I'm sorry; I misread again. :x Anyhow, I edited the above post a bit more. If that still doesn't help, I'll try again.

Edit: Although... looking at the way I just wrote it... It seems like the best solution would actually be a little warning along the lines of 'Please read the Verse page before planning on anything in-depth!' - and then include whatever is deemed to be the best way of putting it over yonder. But that kind of assumes actually coming up with a Verse page for each character... I spent hours on Eri's and I still havn't found the energy to go back and give it a second look! ... Is there a thread for that kind of help somewhere? Although that's not ideal for an 'at-a-glance' summary; which is all most folk in any group are likely to give things at first.

I'm going to echo these sentiments completely.

Best to use clinical terms to avoid offending anyone. And, hey, there are plenty of clinical terms, each meaning different things... Y'know, if you ever want to vary the character concept or something. Intersex, hermaphrodite (though that one can rub some people the wrong way, apparently), pre-op transexual, assorted varieties of crossdressers... (Say it with me kids: Biology + psychology = Lots of knowledge on some surprising stuff.) I'm honestly not sure how people will react to those different terms (or the characters using them)... I'm pretty easy going about that sort of thing, so my opinion may be abnormal.

No point in drawing undue attention to it. Personal opinion: It will seem more natural if it just blends in with the rest of the biography. If someone knows what it means, no problem. If they don't know, they can ask. No real loss for either party for not drawing a huge arrow over it.

And as far as ERP itself goes... I'm of the opinion that as long as both parties involve consent, no one else has to hear or know about it and it just generally doesn't interfere in anyone's life, I don't care. Just please, for the love of all that is holy, be very, very, very, very careful with what channel you're talking in, if it comes up in-game.

I previous MMOs I have played, there have been people who have mixed up 'whisper' for 'global'... And while I am easy going about that sort of thing, it was... how shall I put it... Rather shocking. (To this day, I'm still not entirely sure if that person made an honest mistake or if they were trying to troll...)

I see what you did there.

If you're only interested in RPing with people that like or are intrigued by or are curious of the fact you're FUTA and not metagame it, then what are you asking us for approval or input or advice for again? Are you just advertising so they'll look you up in-game? Or was this all just a careful troll, because it looks to me like you've already made up your mind on everything, including which term you want to use, and just want us all to clap and whistle and shout, "Well done! Way to stand your ground, in the oh-so-misunderstood and controversial genre of FUTA with FEELINGS. Here's your Oscar!"

If you're looking for a "delicate" way to put it in your bio, tough cookies. Good luck to you, tell us how it goes, because there isn't one. No matter what you say, unless it's something completely obscure like "Sex: Spork", essentially what you're doing is highlighting your toon's crotch and placing neon signs all around you that flash, "Look Everyone! She's Got a Dong! Does She Have Balls? Take a Chance!"

See, idgaf what sex your toon is. FUTA isn't really my preference but it doesn't offend me either so I'd most likely be indifferent-to-wary of you if we met in-game. Wary because FUTA are usually of the ERP flavor player and why would one of them talk to me? Why do they talk to ANYBODY. And I apologize. I'm sorry that my tone is suddenly confrontational when I've been mostly playful in the thread (mostly because I found your apparent goal admirable if amusing) but what I said above is honestly how this is looking, or as Magpie put it so much more succinctly:

Ahem! Well... bearing in mind that it's currently near five AM, and I'm on my last legs here... I'll.. try?.. and put this into some kind of sense.

I have, in a way, made up my mind about most of this. But that came somewhere halfway through the thread, before it became more a thing of questioning motives. I've been getting a fair amount of PMs in-game since this whole thing went up - so there's an awful lot of discussion not seen here that... might have actually been helpful to have included somewhere, now that I think about it.

The honest-to-goodness reason for the tag? Habit; and filtering. Elsewhere, I used such a thing as, basically, a way of 'fishing' for the kind of partner I wanted. I figured - if someone could look at that tag; and then pointedly look beyond it to the rest of the character that lie beneath it... and still decide they very much wanted something a bit more in-depth... then I might have had a match! If, however, someone decided that the tag was reason to ignore the rest of the character - either as a turn-off or as a means for cheap fun.. then they weren't what I was after.

But simply porting that same style to CoX wasn't going to cut it! I'll admit - I started with eRP. Soon, that wasn't enough to tickle my brain - but the nature of the place was still the same. I had to push and shove against the norm to find the story and thoughtfulness I was after. Here... I'm starting to get the impression that it's almost the opposite: that story and thoughtfullness are the norm, and I have to somehow push into that with these kinds of characters.

Or... something. Facewafflekeyboardnow. I'll try something more coherent in the afternoon.

If she's trolling, then she's working the long con on me and the people she plays with in-game.

The original question wasn't so much "should I say anything or not," but "what's the best way to say it." The OP might have benefited more from explicitly saying "and I am saying it no matter what," but it stands either way.

Not naw, but HELL naw. Dude, you basically just said "Uh, wait until you're just about to cyborz before you say 'I hay, I got a pen0r, kekeke! Still wanna go through w/it?' and that is foul.

See, UNLIKE IRL, we can't see the undeniable features that many intersexed people have. Adam's apples, shoulder and hip structure and things of that nature that tend to give it away.

You can play "The Crying Game" if you want, but I don't think there's any harm in using the tag. The tag's a courtesy. Stop worrying about what sounds politically correct and what doesn't. You should be more concerned with how it's gonna affect the quality of whatever relationships you develop both ICly and OOCly. Might as well be upfront 'bout it all. Sure, you'll get a leg humper or eight, but there ain't no damn futa-burnin' party out there lookin' to tie you to the front a buick and crash it into burnin' buildin'. Sure, there are some lold*ckgirl" type folks out there, they're everywhere. That's why we have the ignore button. Funny how so many folks forget 'bout that thing.

You're really making this more complicated than it has to be.

"People who take offense to IC actions OOCly need to learn to differentiate between the two... Or change their damn meds."