Fire Tank questions

So last night I realized that I'd never really played a fire/fire tank before, and I figured I'd give it a shot.

He was a lot of fun in low level Praetoria... he felt more like a scrapper than a tank, he just plowed through everyone without stopping. End wasn't really an issue either, though I expect that will change at higher levels. But I had some questions, and I've done some research (looking at guides in the forums, etc) but since there seem to be some important changes to the set since the last guide was published I was hoping some experienced fire tankers could chime in:

1. How necessary is taunt? I know taunt is a useful power because it cuts into the affected targets ability to use ranged weapons, but I would think of all tanks a fire/fire isn't going to have any trouble generating and keeping aggro. Is this generally true? Is there anything specific taunt does that a fire/fire can't do? (other than attracting targets from a distance?)

2. It seems to me that because the fire/fire powers focus on resists and a heal rather than defense (there isn't any defense at all in the set, right?) there's really no point in trying to hit the defense cap at higher levels. In general it seems the play style should be "resist damage for as long as you can, then hit your heal, resist damage for as long as you can, then hit your heal, resist damage for as long as you can, then hit your heal." Is this generally true? and if so, what supplemental powers should I get to make that easier?

3. The tier 9 power for fire/ seems very interesting. It appears as if you could legitimately make faceplanting a part of your tanking tactic: essentially you use your fire powers to get as much aggro as you can, everyone is focused on you, your defenses crumble, you die, then you come back, stunning the entire group long enough for you to get your toggles back and then you use burn and they all die a horrible firey death. That looks like it could work from the outside. Would it work in practice?

and finally...

4. How does burn work these days? The last fire/fire guide I saw was written for i16, and I thought in i18 they removed the fear component, at least to a certain extent? Is it closer to the OMG levels it had in i1?


Thanks for your help. Fire/Fire is a combo I really don't have any experience with at all, so advice from people who have actually used it will be invaluable!

Oh, one other question:

fire/ doesn't seem to have any knockback resistance, and in one of the guides I saw (i16, I think) the main suggestion was to slot one of your powers with an io that provided knockback resistance. Is there any reason why Acrobatics couldn't be used in its place? The main advantage of the io is that it doesn't cost end, but I think fire/ only has two toggles anyway...

ok to answer your questions

1. taunt is never nessecary but always helpful.if your gonna team alot its worth taking to help out the squisheys.plus youll find sooner or later you will have room or it.so it wouldnt hurt to grab it.


2.there is no defense at all so yes your relying on resistance and a heal for your survial.you can however soft cap your defenses but itll cost quite alot since you would be starting from 0 defense to 45% to hit the soft cap.

3.i wouldnt use rotp as part of the attack chain only cause when you get up they can be knocked back causing them to be out of burns range.plus it never looks good for a tank to always be dying..lol...i use it when its needed.for like some of them tougher tfs now.bobcat or neuron hit hard. better for "just incase"

4. burn is an oddball now for sure but way better. first off it can be buffed by using f.e. and b.u....sendly when it hit it give an initial damage hit then on top goes as a somewhat dot power. with a kin ive had 13 ticks of damage and with just f.e/bp i get like 10 ticks of damage off the mobs. very nice indeed and worth sotting up!

5. fire has no kb protection at all correct.acrobatics can help however itas another toggle thats very end heavy.most take i.o's to help with this.karma and steadfasts are the most commom used for kb protection. each one gives 4 points o kb protection and usually put in cj or tp or something to that nature.

Taunt - I swear by Taunt. IMO it's too important for a Tanker to pass up. When a squishy has a mob on him, Taunt is the only thing you can do to reliably get the mob off. Also, in some high level TF's Taunt is almost necessary for keeping the AV's on you.

Defense - Getting high levels of defense is the best way to get survivability on a resistance based set like Fire Armor. Along with defense, you should also aim for recharge so your AoE's and self heal are up faster, also important is getting HP, but defense will get you more survivability in general.

Self Rez - I took it but I respecced out of it. It's a nice thing to have, but not at all necessary. Some people swear by the self rez, some people see it as redundant. IMO, you're either gonna die a lot or not die at all. If you die a lot, the self rez will likely not recharge fast enough to be of consistent help. If you're not gonna die at all then the self rez won't be used.

Burn - I haven't played a lot with the new Burn, but I know the main difference is that the fear component was removed and the damage is less DOT and more up-front. It's a great power and to me it's the main appeal of Fire Armor.

KB Resistance and Acrobatics - Going for the KB IO over Acrobatics saves you a power choice, and that's the most important thing IMO. Fire/Fire can have difficulties with endurance until you get a lot of recharge into Consume. Note I never played Fire/Fire so maybe someone else can provide better input on this.

Hey, thanks for the responses! Of course they have spawned more follow up questions. Sorry for the question aggro.

Re. knockback protection: if the best solution is to buy io's, when should they be bought? How expensive are they? For the most part I ignore io solutions in posts because they're always posted as part of a "this is my end build" description and I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that it doesn't reflect what the build is like level 1-49. I can't imagine effectively having no knockback protection at levels 1-49.

Re. taunt, yeah, I reckon it's still invaluable, I just figured fire was sort of a built-in taunting machine with the aoe damage field combined with gauntlet.

Re. defense... if you basically get all your defense through io set bonuses, then doesn't that mean you don't hit the defense cap till 50? Or until you get several billions worth of influence to buy it all, which is still basically 50? If defense is so important for survivability, how do you actually get to to 50? I hope that doesn't come off sounding snarky, it's genuinely something I don't understand, partially because I really don't understand the way the defense soft cap works. I know 45% is the magic number, I know combat jumping will give you 2.5% and weave will give you, uh... I can't remember... maybe 5%? That's 7.5% defense for a fire tanker, and the rest has to be built in with ridiculously expensive io set bonuses. That's a lot of work, and by the time you get to a level where you can afford to bump up your defense to the magic 45, wouldn't you already have come up with other ways to survive all the content you had to go through to get the influence you needed to hit the 45? In which case, why bother?

(Again, this is from the perspective of someone who doesn't grasp the mathematics behind it. Be gentle.)

Most -KB IO's are pretty cheap, and you should get at least one as soon as you can.

As for Taunt, I can tell you from my experience playing an Elec/Fire(a damage aura and lots of AoE damage) that your AoE radius won't catch everything, and some hard targets will often be lured by some better taunt auras(AAO from SD for example).

Getting defense isn't at all mandatory, but if you want to increase your tanker's survivability from IO's, it is the best way to go. Also, you definitely don't need to be at the softcap to make the bonuses useful, but the closer you get the bigger the impact on your survivability.

Edit: Weave and CJ's numbers may seem small, but they still add a lot to a Fire Armor tanker.

I agree with most of this advice. I'd like to add:

Ya gotta take Burn. I've used it extensively since the change and it's a very good power. I even use it for single targets now, let alone groups. Properly slotted (frankenslotted for the ed cap in damage and recharge) it's back up very soon after it burns out -- you can almost "perma" it without global recharge. It does a ton of damage while you do other things at the same time.

The main cost of taking Acrobatics is the power picks -- it has 2 pre-requisites unless you were planning on leaping anyway -- and the slots to get the end cost down. That's enough to persuade me to buy the IOs.

There's a third way between soft-capping defenses at the expense of your offense and not having any defense -- taking as much defense as you can without reducing your offense. Generally I can get between 30-35% defense to smashing, lethal, energy, and negative (fire is less critical due to your 90% resistance...cold is important but I ran out of slots, and it's very uncommon). This really extends the durability of the tank without what I consider to be significant sacrifice of offensive power.

Taunt costs 0 end to use, which is why I usually have it on my 'tanky' tanks. Running low on end? Go taunt bot for a short while and recover while not losing aggro.

I love the new Burn. Drops like a bomb, recharges quickly, and is dirt cheap (5.2 end). You're going to be surrounded by enemies anyways, might as well roast 'em.

I like RotP for a combat rez. I wouldn't suggest building combat strategy around it, but it is helpful for those times you do go down. Hitting the hospital and running back sucks, and it does look damned awesome. Plus, the knockback gives you a chance to toggle up before rejoining the fray.

My Fire/Fire is redside and definitely runs more like a scrapper at this point. Looking to shore up the survivability with her next few levels, but she's mainly meant for carnage.

Still working on revising my guide in my sig, but it answers most of the questions in here. I also covered the recent changes in replies later in the guide thread.

Anyway, to throw my two cents in, you do want to take Taunt. It used to make more sense to take it later for a Fire/Fire since you have other priorities, but I don't think there's any reason not to take it around level 20 or sooner, as you don't have to worry about picking up Stamina anymore. Taunt is useful in bringing foes at range closer, as well as making sure targets stay focused on you and not your teammates (especially true for AVs).

For survivability, Tough helps out a lot. Even better is to layer resists with defense (by grabbing Weave, defense buffs from IOs, etc.). Some people like to go as high as they can to Smash/Lethal, but I've gotten more mileage out of getting decent defense to all positions and Psychic damage. Decent meaning in the low 20s for me. It makes a noticeable difference. I do have a more S/L focused build, and its performance was much more uneven against the more exotic damage you find late in the game. Getting more recharge so Healing Flames gets up faster is also helpful for your mitigation.

Don't think of Rise of the Phoenix as a carte blanche to faceplant "whenever." Some people play like that, especially Fire Blasters, but a Fire tank (or any other melee character) is plenty survivable. Just think of it as an "oh crap" button when the stuff hits the fan. If you pop it fast enough, your teammates won't get hit by transferred aggro when you are defeated, and you have enough time to retoggle because of Rise of the Phoenix's effects.

For Burn, like I said in comments in my guide, it is a must have now. I personally dumped Combustion for it, as it is so much better. Not as big of an AOE, but much more damage. Basically hits 5 targets near you with a big hit of damage, than does DoT for the rest of its damage. A little different than it used to be, but still quite good!

one reason for taunt is this:
•Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]

it forces enemies to come to you. since the fire tank is mainly PBAoE and damage is its secondary effect, it behoves you to get this power.

A fire tank is all about damage first, so to increase survivability, look into these powers:
-combat jumping
-tough/weave
-Primal APP - physical perfection
and possibly - manuvers

Now, if you want to delve into the world of IO's, I highly suggest slotting for:
Smashing/Lethal or Melee DEF (pick whether your going for positional or typed def and go with it. I say typed myself.)
Recharge - for healing flames and other AoE powers
Knockback Resistance (I say -8 is fine...thats 2 IO's)
Endurance Recovery and extra Damage

Once you get your Incarnate shard, I would say all are good fits except ACC. You dont need the extra DEF the second tier needs mainly b/c it doesnt do as much. I would pick END REDUX or RECHARGE myself. You have plenty of damage. Just look at the second tier secondary effects like +resistance or +heal or something like that.

Sloting your guy will take quite a bit of money, but you can do it. You may have to ticket farm or play the economy, but its do-able.

Just remember, get as much DEF, Resistance, and recharge as possible and you will be fine.
Don't feel like you have to nerf a build or pick up powers to do so.
Remember, now with three extra power picks, you can grab the concealment pool and
use those for LotG mules PLUS those powers come in handy at times.

Lastly, know that some people like burn and combustion and some dont, I like to use a 3 layered AoE attack Myself to pull people into my toggle taunt aura myself:
Fire Sword Circle - Radius 10 Feet
Burn - About 8 Feet..possibly a little less, plus you resist immob's with it too!
Combustion - 15 feet Radius
Blazing Aura - 8 Feet radius (toggle)

Pop Build up and FE, then run into a croud, use either combustion or taunt, then FSC and Burn. Smash on a few guys until the powers pop up again or use healing flames.

Play with it until you have an attack chain and you know the set's in's and outs.

Just a comment on the KB protect IOs. The level matters on them as you lose the protection when you go more then 3 levels below their level. Now since both max at 30 it is not so bad getting them at 30 but 26 and below you would still have no KB protection. Personally I try to get one at 10 and the other higher (max 30 is fine). That way you have a little KB protection at 7 and up and the full amount 27 and up.

Doesn't matter what level power you stick them in I believe just the level of the enhancement. If you buy with merits you can pick your level so just set to 10 when you buy. If you get off market then the lower levels usually cost more.

I may go with acrobatics, simply because the recipes for the IOs, while extremely cheap compared to, say, LotG, are still more than my mid-level tanker can afford right off the bat. Last night they were trading for 10-15 million on Virtue.

market note : the market is cross server and cross faction.

Also Acrobatics has been added back to my build since i19 so that I can save on slots, and as has been noted doesn't cost that much endurance.

Combat Jumping + Weave + steadfast protection: res/def will get you around 15% defense. I'd recommend Obliterations and Touch of Death to help up the melee defense.

Ah, I knew it was cross-faction, didn't know it was cross-server.

CJ + Weave looks like a good starting point. Do tankers get higher bonuses from those powers, or is it just their primaries where their defence bonuses are higher than other classes?

Slight deviation of topic here, but one of the things I do when I create a tank is I also create a brute with the same powerset. Yikes, that's a lot of damage at the low levels! But what's going to be interesting is comparing their survivability at higher levels. My theory is that at the higher levels, when the fire tank can properly slot out his attacks, he'll be able to last longer in more challenging fights because his resists and heal are higher, and that while he won't reach the peaks of damage that a fury bar can provide, the 3-slotted fire attack chains will be substantially more than adequate in most cases.

Have to admit that fury + fire damage is really addictive though. :-)

The Brute will be the better choice.

Fire/Fire is very weak and all it takes is a -recharge from any mob and you are dead. If you can't heal and you are "resisting" EVERYTHING - in other words everything hits you. Then you will die quickly. The Council will destroy you, Rikti will hurt you, Carnies will hurt you and the list grows daily of those things with -recharge powers.

The deal with Fire tanks was always kill them before they kill you. A Brute does it better. When your ultimate power is a self rez - you know how often you will be face planted.

A lot of people will tell you - Fire tanks are wonderful - but they are unless you have a pocket Force Field or Cold Defender, the squishiest of tanks and by quite a large margin. The Brute as you are finding Kills FASTER - they actually do as advertised, they kill before they are killed.

I am leveling a Fire/Electric tank as this gives me some way to mitigate damage as I have some knockdown abilities.