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You do realize that the logical conclusion to what you are saying is since there are good players and bad players to heck with game balance? I'm sorry but I want a balanced game.|
Originally Posted by _Force_
"It's not the Build, it's the Player."
You can sit and argue about what is "good" and what is "bad" all day. Fact of the matter is that a good player can take a weak power-set and excel at it, pushing it to the limit and out performing stronger sets, and visa versa any bad player can take an awesome power-set and make it very UNextraordinary at best. Stop looking at the numbers and instead look at the knowledge and skill of the person at the keyboard, because that right there is where it's at. |
Let me put it another way. The only consistent thing about the game experience from set to set is me. Maybe I suck at the game. Maybe I am good at the game. Regardless, I want all my character concepts to be realized without the frustrations of an obvious statistical imbalance getting in the way of my fun.
Now, if the set offers a different playstyle that I don't like that's completely different; I don't want to impose the style preference on other players. I would just skip those sets. But if I really like a character concept or style but the character is frustrating to play for statistical reasons then I would like the sets balanced.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Wait. Pursuing set balance is not negative. You assume I am somehow emotionally involved with the math of the set. I am not. My Dual Pistols blaster is character number 36 or something. I never said you couldn't have fun with Dual Pistols. I jumped in when people chimed up that the set should not be balanced and their reasoning was, IMO, faulty. I just want set balance.|
Originally Posted by _Elektro_
A lot of people chiming in on this topic have been around a long time. And you have someone like PleaseRecycle who is actually positive about the power set, and sure enough the nay sayers have him beat.
Those of you saying 'more people are saying they don't like than do like it' are barking up the wrong tree. |
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Someone actually chimed in and said you can't farm, or participate in a farm 'type' of environment? Huh? What are you smoking? I had no issue with cycling powers and I'm not I/O'd through the whazoo. If I had to wait on anything, while the fire dot ticked, I focused on LT's and Bosses (which were + 4 to me). The brute enjoyed the assistance, and actually said the minion clean up was nice, but the assistance on bosses was most helpful since that actually slows the process most. Dual Pistols has a VERY nice combo of both minion clean up, and single target hitting. |
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Here are my most prevalent, honest, thoughts on the set: -The Utility of the set lends to a flexibilty MOST blasters just don't have. - While I said I think the swap ammo power should be inherent it is continually omitted from arguing against DP. The ability to engage knockback for soloing is big. (A main reason I did not like my Fire blaster personally). - Swapping to fire in groups helps. Yes the other two round types need something more. - Someone else mentioned this but it is worth repeating: the unusual combination of attack types allows for a nice combination of slotting possibilities. - If I were to change one thing so far? I'd probably speed some of the animations that seem to root you too long, though I still prefer the ability to use a long animated cone that has knockback, compared to something like: Fire Breath. |
But you have to admit the following:
~ It would be nice to have a reason to use Acid and Ice ammo.
~ Executioner's Shot needs some love.
~ It makes little sense to have Hail of Bullets give only positional defense.
~ It kind of sucks having to click off Fire bullets to get the -Res from Piercing and then wait on the ammo recharge to go back to Fire in groups.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Long-time player here, and I think DP is fine. Of course, that's an opinion (and so is yours, and those of the nay-sayers).|
Originally Posted by _Elektro_
Someone contacted me ingame and said they agreed it was a fine set, and had wanted to tell me why they thought so but this person confessed they do not participate on the forums because of the min/max types that will bombard the issue with negative Hero-math. I'd say he's pretty bang on.
A lot of people chiming in on this topic have been around a long time. And you have someone like PleaseRecycle who is actually positive about the power set, and sure enough the nay sayers have him beat. |
There's a balance between "fun" and "math" that people tend to straddle. Some play purely for fun, and would play the most cursed-about combination on the forums just because they find it fun. Others are absolute min/maxers and will only play one or two sets in the entire game. I'm talking about people who don't own anything but SS/WP Brutes and Fire/Kin Controllers.
I have a balance somewhere around the middle. A set has to be fun to play (which DP is), but it has to not have abysmal stats (which DP doesn't; they're about average). DP is in my comfort range, whereas something like AR or TA you couldn't pay me to play.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Sure, I will say most of this I agree with. But if I nitpick the 'other' blasters, I'm going to have some form of list as well.|
But you have to admit the following: ~ It would be nice to have a reason to use Acid and Ice ammo. ~ Executioner's Shot needs some love. ~ It makes little sense to have Hail of Bullets give only positional defense. ~ It kind of sucks having to click off Fire bullets to get the -Res from Piercing and then wait on the ammo recharge to go back to Fire in groups. __________________ |
I think Executioner's shot is very close to 'great'. It is a minor tweak away from being something great, instead of 'good'. I don't miss a Snipe, however, it would be nice if this had a slight tweak to compensate for that. But you can't have everything.
The Piercing issue is real. I think if they can fix that, I agree it shouldn't conflict with the ammo type you use.
That being said it's still more than playable. Let's put it this way, I wouldn't be surprised if the set saw minor tweaks, but it's far from the dog some people are putting it down to be.
Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)
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I feel sort of the same way, though I actually like Assault Rifle. And Radiation and Electric which could easily come up in these discussions.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I have a balance somewhere around the middle. A set has to be fun to play (which DP is), but it has to not have abysmal stats (which DP doesn't; they're about average). DP is in my comfort range, whereas something like AR or TA you couldn't pay me to play.
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But Psychic Blast... I don't think I could do it.
I have a DP/Dev blaster created strictly for concept. He definitely is more successful on a team than solo (though I forgot that the default ammo also adds knockback---will have to play around with that later).
Black Tanager 50 MA/SR Scrapper
Steel Brigade 50 Inv/SS Tanker
Will Scathlocke 50 TA/A Defender
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| My argument wasn't that the set couldn't AoE, it was that the set's AoE was only average for a blaster... |
I missed this the first time. I'm really curious about it. The AoE is "only average" in what way? Compared to Energy Blast? Like the discussion about Full Auto this is extremely difficult to evaluate because it depends on whether you want to measure sustainable damage, burst damage, damage versus opportunity cost (i.e. damage output versus the need to "manage" side effects like knockback), and damage versus groups of various sizes. By having a crashless nuke at all I would argue the set does not do "only average" in at least some categories.
I like dual pistols and I am a min/max'er. It wasn't inherently designed to be a top or bottom performing set, it is a middle road-er with some flair, 30 pieces of flair to be exact.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I personally like the feeling of calmly flying around raining destruction down on my enemies. Combat Jumping plus Hurdle is slightly faster but it's not a big deal (31 MPH vs 38 MPH) and you get a lot better protection from Hover when using long animating attacks. You don't need binds at all if you just ED cap Hover for flight, and if you don't want to spend a couple slots you can run a Hover / Fly bind. Of course I don't usually take Leadership powers or Resuscitate on Blasters so I have no need to quickly reach a teammate, but really I find Hover best for ranged Blasters (those who only use melee occasionally instead of as part of their normal attack chain) and Combat Jumping better for Blasters who regularly get up close and personal. In particular Hover makes tier 3 blasts easier to use since they tend to have longish animations (except Blaze) and short ranges but are absolutely vital to use in a single target attack chain if you want decent DPS. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Hover is perhaps the ultimate example of a power that is numerically advantageous in many cases that I could never stand to use. You lose so much maneuverability (even at the flight speed cap) compared to two slotted hurdle with cj that what you gain in safety and I suppose aoe ability seems hardly worth the loss in strategic contingencies. For one thing you're going to need a bind for hover, or perhaps a macro to power boost and then hover, apparently, in addition to the hopefully standard cj/ninja run bind. Maybe it's doable but I wouldn't feel nearly as confident in my ability to get over to the teammate that just went down and hit vengeance before he grumpily hosped or the lollygagging controller rezzed him. Or, to do a little bunny hopped circle around the room to distract my melee entourage so I'd have enough time to get back and fire off a resuscitation myself. I base this on typically being able to do that at least twice on a pick up 30 minute ITF.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I missed this the first time. I'm really curious about it. The AoE is "only average" in what way? Compared to Energy Blast? Like the discussion about Full Auto this is extremely difficult to evaluate because it depends on whether you want to measure sustainable damage, burst damage, damage versus opportunity cost (i.e. damage output versus the need to "manage" side effects like knockback), and damage versus groups of various sizes. By having a crashless nuke at all I would argue the set does not do "only average" in at least some categories.
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Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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This pretty much sums up my feeling about the set.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
Remember that Hail of Bullets cannot (with rare exceptions) be used every spawn. Empty Clips and Bullet Rain are about on par with other sets that have the standard "one cone and one targeted AoE" setup, and those are the AoE powers you get to actually use every time. The ability to use HoB to blast the heck out of every third spawn or so (or every other spawn with high recharge) does help, but only in certain areas. For instance, you can't really count HoB at all when deciding what difficulty to solo on because you have to fight half the spawns without it... or else lose a ton of time sitting around waiting for it to recharge before attacking the next group. Certainly it's above average in AoE on teams, though not as good as AR or Archery (they get their crashless nukes twice as often, which more than makes up for the lower damage), or possibly Fire if Rain of Fire can be used reliably (RoF takes a while to do its damage so it really only helps much against high level enemies who won't die in a few seconds). So best case DP is around 3rd or 4th in AoE power, and worst case it's right in the middle but with a pleasant boost to kill speed every 2-3 spawns. Well, actually worst case you can't use HoB at all because you won't survive being rooted in the middle of the enemy spawn for several seconds before things die... but I'm being generous here.
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I always assumed the a crashless nuke was the balancing factor for having redraw.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I missed this the first time. I'm really curious about it. The AoE is "only average" in what way? Compared to Energy Blast? Like the discussion about Full Auto this is extremely difficult to evaluate because it depends on whether you want to measure sustainable damage, burst damage, damage versus opportunity cost (i.e. damage output versus the need to "manage" side effects like knockback), and damage versus groups of various sizes. By having a crashless nuke at all I would argue the set does not do "only average" in at least some categories.
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
Remember that Hail of Bullets cannot (with rare exceptions) be used every spawn. Empty Clips and Bullet Rain are about on par with other sets that have the standard "one cone and one targeted AoE" setup, and those are the AoE powers you get to actually use every time. The ability to use HoB to blast the heck out of every third spawn or so (or every other spawn with high recharge) does help, but only in certain areas. For instance, you can't really count HoB at all when deciding what difficulty to solo on because you have to fight half the spawns without it... or else lose a ton of time sitting around waiting for it to recharge before attacking the next group. Certainly it's above average in AoE on teams, though not as good as AR or Archery (they get their crashless nukes twice as often, which more than makes up for the lower damage), or possibly Fire if Rain of Fire can be used reliably (RoF takes a while to do its damage so it really only helps much against high level enemies who won't die in a few seconds). So best case DP is around 3rd or 4th in AoE power, and worst case it's right in the middle but with a pleasant boost to kill speed every 2-3 spawns. Well, actually worst case you can't use HoB at all because you won't survive being rooted in the middle of the enemy spawn for several seconds before things die... but I'm being generous here.
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I agree that Hail of Bullets recharge time has to be considered. It should be part of the evaluation process because sustainable damage is something to be considered. However, it is not the whole picture. We cannot get to discard one part of the evaluation because another part renders a result we favor or disfavor.
As for AR vs DP, I'm continually flummoxed that folks (not just within this thread, but in general) calculate DPS down to the millisecond of Arcanatime but no one seems concerned that 10 enemies means 37% less damage than 16 before calculations even get started. Any comparison between powers has to address this. Powers with different target caps are not directly analagous. Everyone would (rightfully) cry foul if I said Dual Pistols had the best AoE based on the Piercing Round's base damage of 128, which it does to just 3 enemies. AR can hit 20 enemies for less damage in about the time DP can hit 16 for more. Which is better is subjective. If we say "well I don't fight that many enemies with AR because I can't hit them or survive against them" then you've actually taken a step back if we can find a DP who can.
IMO central to all of this the overuse of the generic term "damage." "Damage" in the context of a detailed discussion like this is similar to a word like "value" in an analysis of financial statements. If I tell you a business is "is valued at 5 million dollars" it matters whether we're talking about cash flow, liquid assets, long term assets, EBITDA, projected sales, or some combination of those things. This is the reason business financial statements contain documentation of their assumptions. It is not appropriate to boil everything down to 2 or 3 numbers and make all of our evaluations from there. And many times we actually take it a step further in our discussions, and in our discussion of powers basically do the same thing as when a financial analyst talks about a non-profit as if its goal was to make money, as we do when we bring Fire into the mix and pretend that damage/profit is the only consideration.
[EDIT: It occurred to me after the fact that one of the ways that Fire Blast should probably be analyzed, but seemingly rarely is, is with its bonus damage portion lopped off. That's because this extra damage supposedly is balanced to match the secondary effects of other sets. The resulting numbers would be entirely hypothetical, but would render a closer picture of intended balance, since secondary effects generally aren't reflected in damage sheets. I'm not advocating that this method replace standard analyses, but it possibly should be part of the overall evaluation package, in the same way financial advisors consider multiple financial statement documents in rendering an opinion.]
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It's not an either-or proposition, either. Taking Hover doesn't preclude you from using CJ and Hurdle (especially now that Fitness is free).|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
I personally like the feeling of calmly flying around raining destruction down on my enemies. Combat Jumping plus Hurdle is slightly faster but it's not a big deal (31 MPH vs 38 MPH) and you get a lot better protection from Hover when using long animating attacks. You don't need binds at all if you just ED cap Hover for flight, and if you don't want to spend a couple slots you can run a Hover / Fly bind. Of course I don't usually take Leadership powers or Resuscitate on Blasters so I have no need to quickly reach a teammate, but really I find Hover best for ranged Blasters (those who only use melee occasionally instead of as part of their normal attack chain) and Combat Jumping better for Blasters who regularly get up close and personal. In particular Hover makes tier 3 blasts easier to use since they tend to have longish animations (except Blaze) and short ranges but are absolutely vital to use in a single target attack chain if you want decent DPS.
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I have a hard time playing any Blaster build that doesn't have both. YMMV.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I consider Full Auto better for most situations for one reason: you can use it every spawn with good recharge. You can not use Hail of Bullets every spawn unless you are fighting things that take a long time to kill, like high end TF spawns. Certainly you aren't going to be using HoB every spawn solo, which is the only place survivability really matters. That means HoB has absolutely zero effect on what you can fight... you can't use it on every spawn so you have to be able to defeat a spawn without using it, therefore you have to adjust your difficulty based on what you can kill without HoB.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
As for AR vs DP, I'm continually flummoxed that folks (not just within this thread, but in general) calculate DPS down to the millisecond of Arcanatime but no one seems concerned that 10 enemies means 37% less damage than 16 before calculations even get started. Any comparison between powers has to address this. Powers with different target caps are not directly analagous. Everyone would (rightfully) cry foul if I said Dual Pistols had the best AoE based on the Piercing Round's base damage of 128, which it does to just 3 enemies. AR can hit 20 enemies for less damage in about the time DP can hit 16 for more. Which is better is subjective. If we say "well I don't fight that many enemies with AR because I can't hit them or survive against them" then you've actually taken a step back if we can find a DP who can.
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Using the base damage numbers given earlier and assuming 16+ targets, we get:
Full Auto: 180 damage * 10 targets = 1800 damage
Rain of Arrows: 225 damage * 16 targets = 3600 damage
Hail of Bullets: 250 damage * 16 targets = 4000 damage
You get to use Full Auto or Rain of Arrows twice for every Hail of Bullets, so on average Hail of Bullets is indeed slightly stronger than Full Auto (3600 base damage vs 4000). Is that enough extra damage to make up for the added risk and wider damage variation from HoB? That's up for debate, and will depend a lot on your build and playstyle. As for comparing HoB's 4000 damage to RoA's 7200... well, let's just say there's a reason my favorite Blaster is an archer.
Plus a high recharge build can use RoA or FA every single spawn, which means you actually get to count those powers when deciding what you can fight.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Obitus
It's not an either-or proposition, either. Taking Hover doesn't preclude you from using CJ and Hurdle (especially now that Fitness is free).
I have a hard time playing any Blaster build that doesn't have both. YMMV. |
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
Quote:
The immob protection is also very nice.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
I've never tried that, but I think I may now since I usually don't use all four pools on a Blaster. Combat Jumping be a LotG mule just as easily as Stealth and it has the added bonus being something I'd actually use often... even when flying it's a bit more defense for essentially zero endurance.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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We are getting quite a bit away from the OP here so I will just end with this. For me DP is below (not tremendously below but enough below that I won't play it) my minimum playability standards, as is Elec, and Psi. Add in my dislike for Gun-Fu animations and you have a set that I played once to 50 and deleted and will not play again until it has been buffed and alternate animations made available.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The problem is it is impossible to enhance two different sets equally with set bonuses because they are not apples and apples. Even if you could, how the set performs under IOs would still be relevant discussion. It IS worth knowing, IMO, that if Assault Rifle and Dual Pistols are IOed with the same amounts of Recharge, AR's nuke's lead gets smaller as the Recharge gets bigger. (This fact is for some reason not generally well known but affects all powers on long recharges. People still tend to quote base recharge values, perhaps for dramatic impact.) Add to this the fact that some IO benefits are indirect. Radiation Blast, for example, benefits tremendously from the slotting Defense of some kind due to its inherent risky nature.
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If the devs choose not to buff it or make alternate animations for it I won't play it and I'm ok with that. DP was not a set I was waiting for eagerly and the handful of concepts I had if I liked the set don't mix at all with the animations. Since there are several other power sets that meet my minimum criteria and are fun to play and I only have a couple of empty character slots left on my home server I'm not crying any tears over this.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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| Certainly you aren't going to be using HoB every spawn solo, which is the only place survivability really matters. That means HoB has absolutely zero effect on what you can fight... you can't use it on every spawn so you have to be able to defeat a spawn without using it, therefore you have to adjust your difficulty based on what you can kill without HoB. |
I disagree. Just because fighting some spawns is easier than fighting others doesn't mean that you don't actually have an easier time fighting one half of the spawns. You are basically arguing that if a player rips through one spawn and then attacks another that the damage they did to the spawn they just destroyed didn't actually happen because they can't immediately repeat it. In essence, that DPR is all that matters. But you don't "need" HoB to be recharged in order to attack any more than you'd need any other kind of attack. It certainly helps if it is recharged, but I don't see many people standing around waiting for it. I certainly don't. Energy Blast doesn't get an attack like this at all and is expected to perform. The fact that Pistols can pack this extra damage is an asset, not a detriment.
Anyway, my incomplete Pistol/Dark Corruptor's build's Hail of Bullets recharges in about 32 seconds, which is more or less every spawn. Compared to my plan for my Rifle/Cold Corruptor, it's neck to neck and even somewhat ahead in the nuke department because it does all of its damage in a burst during the opener instead of hitting 10 enemies at the start and then hitting others 15-20 seconds into the fight when it launches the nuke a second time.
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| As for comparing HoB's 4000 damage to RoA's 7200... well, let's just say there's a reason my favorite Blaster is an archer. |
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No, I'm arguing that if you can't beat a spawn at +0/x8 difficulty without faceplanting unless you use HoB to quickly cut down minions then you can't solo at +0/x8 at all unless you are willing to sit there and wait between spawns. On a Corruptor or Defender that may not be a problem because they take longer to mop up, but a Blaster using a crashless nuke can clear a spawn fast. Admitedly that's a more common situation with Full Auto or Rain of Arrows since they can be used at range, but with stealth you can also gain a second or two as the enemies react using HoB (especially the ones who choose to run up and punch you). I know on my archer I can solo on +0/x8/no bosses if I get RoA off, but if I try it with just Fistful and Explosive I generally have problems. And since I lack the global recharge to use RoA every spawn without a 10 second wait I prefer to solo smaller groups so I can steamroll them (I kill a spawn in 15-20 seconds, adding 10 seconds or so of downtime is harder on my kill rate than just dropping the number of enemies slightly).|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I disagree. Just because fighting some spawns is easier than fighting others doesn't mean that you don't actually have an easier time fighting one half of the spawns. You are basically arguing that if a player rips through one spawn and then attacks another that the damage they did to the spawn they just destroyed didn't actually happen because they can't immediately repeat it.
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Obviously if you can solo at a given level HoB is going to make every other spawn or so faster, but only if you can survive fighting the rest of the spawns without it.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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One trick I use for my DP is to go with smaller groups as a default and when my nuke is up herd two spawns together.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
No, I'm arguing that if you can't beat a spawn at +0/x8 difficulty without faceplanting unless you use HoB to quickly cut down minions then you can't solo at +0/x8 at all unless you are willing to sit there and wait between spawns. On a Corruptor or Defender that may not be a problem because they take longer to mop up, but a Blaster using a crashless nuke can clear a spawn fast. Admitedly that's a more common situation with Full Auto or Rain of Arrows since they can be used at range, but with stealth you can also gain a second or two as the enemies react using HoB (especially the ones who choose to run up and punch you). I know on my archer I can solo on +0/x8/no bosses if I get RoA off, but if I try it with just Fistful and Explosive I generally have problems. And since I lack the global recharge to use RoA every spawn without a 10 second wait I prefer to solo smaller groups so I can steamroll them (I kill a spawn in 15-20 seconds, adding 10 seconds or so of downtime is harder on my kill rate than just dropping the number of enemies slightly).
Obviously if you can solo at a given level HoB is going to make every other spawn or so faster, but only if you can survive fighting the rest of the spawns without it. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Lets hope that the new powers team will have a chance to look at DP to make some much needed changes that castle was afraid to make. DP is a good set but it fails for quite a few reasons. 1 is the swap ammo gimmick, back when this was in beta many players begged that we got build up instead and have swap ammo come with it as something you get inherrently later on but the devs werent having that. Maybe build up can be added and swap ammo giving inherrently. Second is the pathetic damage for the long *** animations, points finger at executioner's shoot. Seriously for how long these powers go off there is no reason for it to not rivial fire blast in damage. Above all else my biggest gripe is the chance to hit mechanic on the tier 9 power. Its recharge is double that of rain of arrows and full auto and it hits way less targets for way less damage. Right now I have the set paired with psi so I get 2 aoes in that brief time build up is going. At least then I have a chance of taking out most of the minions instead of just pissing them off. If they half the recharge of that power and give it regular tohit mechanics I can see DP working out as a great set. As it stands now the only way to get the most out of DP is to go with a ton of recharge sets or pair it with kinetics on a corrupter to maximize the possible damage potential by leveraging scourge.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
It works really nicely with Dark Miasma and Traps. Cor or Def. Which is hilarious, cause that's mostly what all the petless Mastermind pistoleers were. (giggle)
I started a blaster DP/Energy with it but only made it to 14 and stopped. Also the DP/Pain cor... stopped at 23. Was becomming painfully clear later level mobes were gonna hand me my tookus if I couldn't debuff/ghetto control them.
Put it with a massive debuff your foe set or at least a decent one and your good. Is it fair that the set NEEDS that help? Not really. Personal opinion. Is my DP/Dark Cor named Hexslinger (only spellcasting on a focus gun sould justify some of those moves... so magic it was hehe) my all time fav character? Yes... yes it is... and I have a still active Fire/Dark cor to compare. That toon is more damaging but... Oh... oh Hexslinger is.... Well fun. Looks spiffy and dang it, it's not too shabby. Would I say no to better secondary effects and the first blast enjoying those effects and Piricing round doing it's damage resist debuff no matter what ammo's slotted... perhaps having a slight defense debuff as it's extra theme when using lethal? I would surely not complain. Would I give up a blast for an AIM? yes. I canno't take and properly slot the full set and have all the fun of the secodaries too boot. Just not enough slots....
Anyway... Cheerio. Happy Holidays and all that!
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Blazing Arrow and Rain of Arrows are in the same set. Fail.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The best reason why dp would not be better off for executioner's shot being good is that hail of bullets would be a crashy nuke instead. There is no way they would have allowed both of those in one set, and by now I hope you can tell which one I prefer.
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Idly, Dual Pistols is the only blaster set I've 50ed, with Mental Manipulation secondary. And in all honesty, I love taking mine on large groups and just melting spawns with Bullet Rain + Psychic Shockwave + Hail of Bullets as needed.
I also recognize that my DP/Mental blaster does 72.5% of the single-target DPS my DB/WP scrapper does... and my DB/WP scrapper has a cone in her optimal attack chain, so her AoE damage is not exactly horribly lacking either. (Is it worse than the DP's? Yes.)
Short version: DP has serious problems in single-target DPS, and has at best average AoE if you don't pair it with a secondary that provides good AoE options like Mental. Empty Clips is arguably the second worst cone in any blast set, and Bullet Rain is stingingly average. Don't believe me? Let's look at some unslotted DPA comparisons courtesy of the newest Mids:
Cones (range/arc):
Archery: Fistful of Arrows 43.13 (50/30)
Assault Rifle: Buckshot 53.91 (40/30), Flamethrower 48.29 (40/45), Full Auto 42.27 (80/20)
Dual Pistols: Empty Clips 21.56 (40/30), Piercing Rounds 48.58 (80/5)
Electrical Blast: No cones in the set.
Energy Blast: Energy Torrent 45.5 (40/45)
Fire Blast: Fire Breath 37.81 (40/30)
Ice Blast: Frost Breath 30.16 (40/30)
Psychic Blast: No cones in the set.
Radiation Blast: Electron Haze 33.68 (40/30)
Sonic Attack: Howl 20.21 (50/30), Shockwave 16.85 (50/30)
Mental Manipulation: Psychic Scream 22.4 (60/30)
Shockwave is undoubtedly the stinker here. The only thing that saves Howl from being the second worst, IMO, is the fact that it slaps everything it hits with a 13% resistance debuff for 8 seconds, which increases the damage everything else you can throw does for a while; unfortunately, Sonic/ is ineffective at leveraging this well over a wide area, but it can mesh with some secondaries well nonetheless. Piercing Rounds is good... if you can make the cone hit enough things. I'll also evaluate it along with the ST attacks.
Surprisingly (and this is something I didn't realize before I did this), Energy Torrent is actually really good, even if the knockback is annoying.
Conventional targeted AoEs (range/radius):
Archery: Explosive Arrow 47.4 (80/15), Rain of Arrows 53.32 (90/25) *assuming all three ticks connect*
Assault Rifle: M30 Grenade 30.47 (80/15)
Dual Pistols: Bullet Rain 23.67 (80/15)
Electrical Blast: Ball Lightning 48.34 (80/15)
Energy Blast: Explosive Blast 30.47 (80/15)
Fire Blast: Fire Ball 66.35 (80/15)
Ice Blast: Only has Ice Storm, rain powers are hard to evaluate.
Psychic Blast: Psionic Tornado 22.2 (80/20)
Radiation Blast: Neutron Bomb 30.47 (80/15)
Sonic Attack: No targeted AoEs in the set.
Not surprisingly, Fire Ball is the clear leader. Ball Lightning's #2 spot surprises me.
And what do you know? Bullet Rain is way down at the bottom here too, and not by small change.
PBAoEs (radius):
Dual Pistols: Hail of Bullets can't be accurately modeled in the current Mids (activation time is wrong in the database, I think it's wrong in-game too).
Electric Blast: Short Circuit 17.77 (20)
Radiation Blast: Irradiate 47.4 (20)
Fire Manipulation: Combustion 26.33 (15), Fire Sword Circle 34.28 (10), Burn 58.98 (8)
Mental Manipulation: Psychic Shockwave 32.58 (15)
Not much to compare here. I can't get HoB numbers, but honestly it only barely counts with its recharge. I ignored crashnukes.
How about the non-normalized ST blasts?
Archery: Blazing Arrow 81.68 (80')
Assault Rifle: Only has two ST blasts
Dual Pistols: Executioner's Shot 47.85 (40'), Piercing Rounds* 48.58 (80')
Electrical Blast: Only has two ST blasts
Energy Blast: Power Burst 59.1 (40')
Fire Blast: Blaze 159.04 (40')
Ice Blast: Bitter Ice Blast 108.06 (50')
Psychic Blast: Telekinetic Blast 103.22 (80')
Radiation Blast: Cosmic Burst 59.1 (40')
Sonic Attack: Shout 45.67 (40')
Let's see here. DP's true tier 3 ST blast is actually beaten out by its pseudocone Piercing Rounds. Shout would be the worst tier 3 blast here... but like everything else in Sonic Attack, it carries -13% RES, and even one stack of that debuff will push it ahead of Dual Pistols in DPA. Power Burst and Cosmic Burst aren't particularly good either. Blazing Arrow is very nice, but more overrated than I realized (though the fact that it has 80 range, and DOESN'T have Telekinetic Blast's huge knockback, weighs heavily in favor of it). Bitter Ice Blast is nice, and Telekinetic Blast is good in spite of the knockback.
And then Blaze is just retarded.
Been playing my DP/NRG for awhile and he is at 50. My suggestions are below:
1. Make Swap Ammo inherent and add Aim in it's slot
2. Adjust the damage of Swap Ammo, so that the ammo is 50% of the total damage. Currently when selecting Cryo Ammo with the Pistols power Mid's shows Lethal 43.79 and Cold 18.77 for a total of 62.56. I would make the split 31.28 each.
3. Increase the damage to Executioner's Shot to make the damage / animation time equivalent. Looking at Mid's I see the following and think just looking at these 3 powers ES is behind:
Executioner's Shot - Lvl 18
End: 10.4
Recharge: 10
Damage: 132.63
Blaze - Lvl 18
End: 10.4
Recharge: 10
Damage: 188.94
Blazing Arrow - Lvl 6
End: 10.19
Recharge: 10
Damage: 161.72
4. Increase the damage of Hail of Bullets so the damage is comparable to equivalent Tier 9s (AR and RoA) when recharge, range and animation are taken into account
Special Additions that have nothing to do with DP, but would make MY DP Blaster better
5. Add an MA secondary for Blasters
6. Make some adjustments to Munitions mastery, specifically turning Body Armor into a toggle equivalent of Temp Invulnerability of the Force Mastery APP
@ThrillKiller
It's a great Defender powerset, or a decent Corruptor powerset.
It's below average for Blasters.
The reason, simply, is that Dual Pistols 'pays' a lot in the way of damage for the Swap Ammo mechanic and the versatility of the secondary effects. On Blasters, those secondary effects are minimal with the exception of the Fire DoT, because Blasters don't have great control/mez effect modifiers. So to maximise the effects of Swap Ammo, a Dual Pistols player really should memorize what enemy mobs are weak to and then swap to the appropriate effect. Which is considerably more effort than is needed for any other powerset in the game.
Add to that the AOE-heavy nature of the powerset, and you have Blasters that draw aggro like a Trick Archer but don't have the damage to back it up.
Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)