Given the profundity of the misunderstanding of the basic functions of dual pistols, it seems to me that perhaps its real problem was one of timing. Not so much its animation times, more its time of availability.
If we compare the four newest sets, the only one that stands out from the others in its power level is demon summoning, a.k.a. "the shield defense of mastermind primaries." Essentially peerless, it has every good feature about any mastermind set, including a few brand new ones. Kinetic melee and electrical control, by contrast, are quite similar to dual pistols - not the best at everything, and requiring some finesse to leverage properly.
No one seems to mind that in the context of those two sets however. Why not? Probably because they've been around for half as long as dual pistols and demon summoning. Or, to look at it another way, because they weren't released concurrently with demon summoning, the "good" set of the lot.
What can be done about this, now that the dual pistols is bad meme has had time to become thoroughly entrenched on the forums? I don't know, how much does it cost to form an awareness campaign with the Ad Council? Probably a little more than is merited by a video game balance misunderstanding.
Oh well, I suppose the important thing is that those of us who bother to learn the intricacies of the set are rewarded for doing so, much as those who stray from the cloying hooks of nickelback and coldplay often stumble upon hidden gems off of the well-trodden path of the pop charts.
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I wouldn't call Archery's Tier 1 and 2 powers inferior to DPs Tier 1 and 2. They look about even to me. If anything Archery might be slightly better because Snap Shot recharges quicker and both Archery powers have better Accuracy and End.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The funny part is that you go on to ignore the fact that archery pays for this by way of its tier 1 and tier 2 blasts being straight up inferior to those from any other blaster set. Dual pistols' t1 and t2 blasts are so far ahead here that I don't think I would have brought this up if my goal were to show that dual pistols relatively underperforms for single target.
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Tier 1
Pistols
Acc: 82.5
End:4.16
Rech: 4
Dmg: 62.56
Rng: 80
Snap Shot
Acc: 86.63
End:3.536
Rech: 2
Dmg: 52.55
Rng: 80
Tier 2
Dual Wield
Acc: 82.5
End: 6.864
Rech: 6
Dmg: 82.58
Rng: 80
Aimed Shot
Acc: 86.63
End: 5.2
Rech: 6
Dmg: 82.58
Rng: 80
@ThrillKiller
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Actually, the scrapper board banged the heck out of Kinetic Melee from a numerical standpoint. The truth is just the opposite; while it appears to underperform because the complicated animations give the illusion of time and the inherent damage boost power isn't intuitive, numerically it is a good set and up to par with the other scrapper primaries.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Kinetic melee and electrical control, by contrast, are quite similar to dual pistols - not the best at everything, and requiring some finesse to leverage properly.
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(I don't know anything about Electric.)
I do agree with you that you can't talk single target damage without comparing the entire chains though. Archery tier 1 and tier 2 attacks are lower, but I will point out that if you try to leverage any other ammo except Fire that DP has the exact same values; it's Fire ammo that basically brings those attacks up to par. That still leaves us with Executioner's Shot as a problem with the set.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Compare Archery to other sets or to DP with Fire ammo and it does fall behind.
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Originally Posted by Simian_Stalker
I wouldn't call Archery's Tier 1 and 2 powers inferior to DPs Tier 1 and 2. They look about even to me. If anything Archery might be slightly better because Snap Shot recharges quicker and both Archery powers have better Accuracy and End.
Tier 1 Pistols Acc: 82.5 End:4.16 Rech: 4 Dmg: 62.56 Rng: 80 Snap Shot Acc: 86.63 End:3.536 Rech: 2 Dmg: 52.55 Rng: 80 Tier 2 Dual Wield Acc: 82.5 End: 6.864 Rech: 6 Dmg: 82.58 Rng: 80 Aimed Shot Acc: 86.63 End: 5.2 Rech: 6 Dmg: 82.58 Rng: 80 |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
I'll give you executioner's shot. I took it and used it while I was leveling my blaster up and while it does look fantastic, dropping it was an extremely easy decision at high level. In my view, piercing rounds more than makes up for not having a "real" tier 3 blast, because it fills a very similar role but trades straight up single target power for what I would call a much more interesting, and much more complex, mechanic. I don't even use it for its -res but that's yet another layer to it that a conventional tier 3 blast simply doesn't have. But, I do see how many wouldn't feel that it was worth trying to make the most of a power that is only numerically comparable to blaze if you always hit two or three targets with it.
The reason that doesn't bother me is not that I don't care about min/maxing, I most certainly do. Blaze itself is a huge outlier, however. It has, as I understand it, the highest DPA of anything other than perhaps corruptor blizzard which for obviously reasons is beyond the scope of this discussion. So, if dual pistols lacks an answer to blaze, it's time to look at what perks you get instead. For me, hail of bullets is such a huge perk that jealous thoughts of fire blast are ne'er to be found dancing through the vacant meadows of my noggin.
In summation, does dp suffer if a tier 3 blast is a high priority for you? Sure, but if it isn't, you're good to go.
I sent a PM to Black Scorpion, tried to send it to Synapse too but pms seem to be turned off on his account. But in either case I wanted to see if a dev can come to this thread and give an official response as to what Dual Pistols is supposed to be doing compared to the other sets. I have always felt this set lagged behind the others due to its incredibly short beta period that was rushed due to the reactivation weekend to promote GR with the flair of DP. This set is long over due for a buffing.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I'll give you using Piercing and skipping Executioner's. I find decent opportunities to open with Piercing and hit two or even three targets. It's the kind of attack I didn't like at first but is better than I gave it credit for once I learned to use it. With a 20 second recharge I haven't been able to make a full attack chain with only Piercing and the first two attacks.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'll give you executioner's shot. I took it and used it while I was leveling my blaster up and while it does look fantastic, dropping it was an extremely easy decision at high level. In my view, piercing rounds more than makes up for not having a "real" tier 3 blast, because it fills a very similar role but trades straight up single target power for what I would call a much more interesting, and much more complex, mechanic. I don't even use it for its -res but that's yet another layer to it that a conventional tier 3 blast simply doesn't have. But, I do see how many wouldn't feel that it was worth trying to make the most of a power that is only numerically comparable to blaze if you always hit two or three targets with it.
The reason that doesn't bother me is not that I don't care about min/maxing, I most certainly do. Blaze itself is a huge outlier, however. It has, as I understand it, the highest DPA of anything other than perhaps corruptor blizzard which for obviously reasons is beyond the scope of this discussion. So, if dual pistols lacks an answer to blaze, it's time to look at what perks you get instead. For me, hail of bullets is such a huge perk that jealous thoughts of fire blast are ne'er to be found dancing through the vacant meadows of my noggin. In summation, does dp suffer if a tier 3 blast is a high priority for you? Sure, but if it isn't, you're good to go. |
I don't think anyone expects DP to get a Blaze equivalent. IMO that attack is the cornerstone of Fire, even more than the AoE.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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First, it's the holidays. Second, I don't know with the recent departure of Castle that they will be able to comment on what DP is "supposed" to be doing. I think they will need time to get back from vacation and to evaluate where they take the game from here.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I sent a PM to Black Scorpion, tried to send it to Synapse too but pms seem to be turned off on his account. But in either case I wanted to see if a dev can come to this thread and give an official response as to what Dual Pistols is supposed to be doing compared to the other sets. I have always felt this set lagged behind the others due to its incredibly short beta period that was rushed due to the reactivation weekend to promote GR with the flair of DP. This set is long over due for a buffing.
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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According to Mid's the damage for DPs tier 1 and tier 2 do not change when substituting ammo. The overall damage is the same, but a portion of the damage is fire, cold, etc. I assume you are saying it falls behind due to lethal resistance in a bunch of mobs. Is this correct? If so, does it really fall behind that much?
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Compare Archery to other sets or to DP with Fire ammo and it does fall behind.
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@ThrillKiller
Quote:
No, Mid's does not currently have the functionality to add the extra Fire DoT to the DP attacks damage when Fire ammo is used. There is a substantial additional DoT component when Fire is used.
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Originally Posted by Simian_Stalker
According to Mid's the damage for DPs tier 1 and tier 2 do not change when substituting ammo. The overall damage is the same, but a portion of the damage is fire, cold, etc. I assume you are saying it falls behind due to lethal resistance in a bunch of mobs. Is this correct? If so, does it really fall behind that much?
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Actually if people are going by mids numbers and mids neglects to mention the fire dot with inferno rounds, that might explain a lot of the negativity about dp's damage. In most cases, the dot is exactly the same as the dot of the corresponding fire blast attack, if applicable. Bullet rain, for example, hits for almost exactly the same damage as fireball, both of them packing a large dot with an 80% chance to proc.
That would also explain why people seem to be using the 206 base damage number for hail of bullets when, dot included, it's more like 266, for an average of something like 250.
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Yeah, and even City of Data's Dual Pistols info is a little difficult to interpret at a glance. It seems like Pistols doesn't get any extra Fire DoT from the Incendiary Ammunication. (Nor any slow or -damage from cold and toxic rounds.)|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
No, Mid's does not currently have the functionality to add the extra Fire DoT to the DP attacks damage when Fire ammo is used. There is a substantial additional DoT component when Fire is used.
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The rest of the powers don't seem to follow any clear pattern at a glance either. Dual Wield gives you 82.58 damage base, plus 4 * 7.07 extra fire damage with the Incendiary rounds, which is a 34% bonus. Empty Clips gives you 56.92 base damage, plus an extra 3 * 7.07 fire damage, which is a ~37% bonus.
Bullet Rain gives you 62.52 base damage, plus an extra 3 * 7.07 fire damage for a 34% bonus. And on and on. All of the above assumes I'm interpreting the numbers correctly -- that the second set of PvE lethal numbers is replaced by the first set of PvE fire numbers, with the second set of PvE fire numbers representing the bonus (corresponding to the cold and toxic debuffs).
I'm also not sure from reading those entries what the probability of the fire DoT is. I guess it's probably 80% to follow Fire Blast's example, but I can't be sure. If so, then the over-time benefit of the incendiary rounds hovers between ~24% to ~32% extra damage. Both are tremendous numbers, though it's arguable that Dual Pistol's generally long activation times diminish the extra damage available to the set relative to the damage of other (non-Fire) blast sets.
If any of my interpretations are close, though, it's pretty clear that Dual Pistols isn't terrible. Seems like it's most likely a middling performer, which may or may not be unacceptable to the individual player given what I believe to be the comparative weakness of Blasters as a whole AT. (At least at the high end of IO builds.)
In other words, and to make a long story short: Playing a middling-performer set on what is perceived to be a powerful AT may be easier to swallow than playing a middling-perfomer set on the game's hard-mode AT. YMMV.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Quote:
Correct, Pistols gains no DoT from fire ammo. The other attacks do, though, as you've pointed out. However, as PleaseRecycle (correctly) pointed out, this effectively locks you into using Incendiary Rounds if you want to do anywhere remotely near decent damage, and as such destroys the set's primary gimmick for blasters. (As has been mentioned, it's a much better Defender blast set.)|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Yeah, and even City of Data's Dual Pistols info is a little difficult to interpret at a glance. It seems like Pistols doesn't get any extra Fire DoT from the Incendiary Ammunication. (Nor any slow or -damage from cold and toxic rounds.)
The rest of the powers don't seem to follow any clear pattern at a glance either. Dual Wield gives you 82.58 damage base, plus 4 * 7.07 extra fire damage with the Incendiary rounds, which is a 34% bonus. Empty Clips gives you 56.92 base damage, plus an extra 3 * 7.07 fire damage, which is a ~37% bonus. Bullet Rain gives you 62.52 base damage, plus an extra 3 * 7.07 fire damage for a 34% bonus. And on and on. All of the above assumes I'm interpreting the numbers correctly -- that the second set of PvE lethal numbers is replaced by the first set of PvE fire numbers, with the second set of PvE fire numbers representing the bonus (corresponding to the cold and toxic debuffs). I'm also not sure from reading those entries what the probability of the fire DoT is. I guess it's probably 80% to follow Fire Blast's example, but I can't be sure. If so, then the over-time benefit of the incendiary rounds hovers between ~24% to ~32% extra damage. Both are tremendous numbers, though it's arguable that Dual Pistol's generally long activation times diminish the extra damage available to the set relative to the damage of other (non-Fire) blast sets. If any of my interpretations are close, though, it's pretty clear that Dual Pistols isn't terrible. Seems like it's most likely a middling performer, which may or may not be unacceptable to the individual player given what I believe to be the comparative weakness of Blasters as a whole AT. (At least at the high end of IO builds.) In other words, and to make a long story short: Playing a middling-performer set on what is perceived to be a powerful AT may be easier to swallow than playing a middling-perfomer set on the game's hard-mode AT. YMMV. |
I think the underlying problem here is that my perception is that Incendiary Rounds' added DoT is necessary to bring Dual Pistols damage up to even "average", when really (given the set's gimmick) the set should have "average" DPS on its own and Incendiary Rounds should bring it up to "good". But DP's problem is not so much that the raw damage on the attacks is insufficient in general (Executioner's Shot is the only offender there) but that the set has no attacks under a 2.64 second animation time outside of its first two blasts, and as such has problems leveraging Defiance effectively as well. Personally, I think the set would be fine if it got the same sort of treatment Broadsword did a few issues ago, trimming the animations just slightly to bring its DPA up. If, with non-fire ammo, Empty Clips DPA was at least on the level of, say, Frost Breath (the next worst cone after it), and Bullet Rain were at least on the level of M30 Grenade/Explosive Blast/Neutron Bomb (the 'average' targeted AoEs), the set's AoE would be just fine; and if Executioner's Shot's DPA was brought up to at least Blazing Arrow level (not range! ES' range should most definitely stay 40'), then I think you'd have a good but not hideously overperforming set.
Or, the tl;dr version - It seems like Dual Pistols was balanced around the damage figures with Incendiary Ammo rather than balanced around its actual baseline figures, giving the result that the set takes a damage penalty for NOT using Incendiary Ammo, instead of gaining a damage bonus for using it (which should be the case).
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This. In addition, the tier one does less damage than comparable sets with no DoT or anything else to balance it. It also lacks the fast recharge of the Archery tier one. Executioner's Shot is just bad. It makes for a bad single target damage.
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Originally Posted by Reiska
Or, the tl;dr version - It seems like Dual Pistols was balanced around the damage figures with Incendiary Ammo rather than balanced around its actual baseline figures, giving the result that the set takes a damage penalty for NOT using Incendiary Ammo, instead of gaining a damage bonus for using it (which should be the case).
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Huh? The only set that does more than 1% more damage than pistols in its tier 1 is assault rifle, which does 8% more. Flares does 1% more, i.e. is identical for all practical purposes. Every other tier 1 blast does damage scale 1, same as Pistols. Archery and sonic do 16% less damage, though at least shriek is balanced by its resistance debuff.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
In addition, the tier one does less damage than comparable sets with no DoT or anything else to balance it. It also lacks the fast recharge of the Archery tier one.
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I would argue that the recharge times of the tier 1 and 2 blasts don't matter very much because with moderate global recharge and hasten you can chain them together indefinitely on any set. I suppose it's an advantage at low levels.
Edit: Okay, it takes closer to perma-hasten recharge to chain them gaplessly, but that's hardly outside the realm of how people actually play. Didn't bother on my pistol blaster as I typically have things I would rather be doing than using my tier 1 and tier 2 blasts, the exception being while mezzed of course.
In response to Reiska, just how much of a damage bonus would you consider balanced? Without even turning on inferno rounds, or considering tier 9s, dual pistols has stronger aoe than energy, psy, sonic, elec and arguably ice. Turn on inferno rounds and it immediately gains, to use Obitus' low estimate, 24% beyond that. That isn't enough?
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That might have been an intentional design decision, though -- a developer-approved trade-off in non-Incendiary damage in return for extra flexibility.|
Originally Posted by Reiska
Or, the tl;dr version - It seems like Dual Pistols was balanced around the damage figures with Incendiary Ammo rather than balanced around its actual baseline figures, giving the result that the set takes a damage penalty for NOT using Incendiary Ammo, instead of gaining a damage bonus for using it (which should be the case).
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Whether you agree with that design decision is another matter -- and I think there's room to argue that the devs have always been a little too wary of buffing Blasters, have always been perhaps too eager to give Blasters big trade offs. But that's more an issue with the AT than it is with any particular power set.
The pattern in this thread seems to be that even those who dislike Dual Pistols on a Blaster (generally) like it on a Defender or a Corruptor. It's a small sample size, sure -- but for what it's worth, that trend jives with my own personal experience with non-DP Blasters, which goes back to launch day.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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No it doesn't... the gimmick of the set is that you can switch between four different ammo types that do different things for different situations. I would say that lethal is better for soloing on a Blaster due to the knockback (it's even fairly high rate). And there are times when chemical and cryo are useful. Unless you believe that all four ammo types should do the same damage, the only person that's "destroying the gimmick" is the player, by deciding that the only thing that matters is pure damage, and opting for fire all the time. I switch off of fire fairly often on my Blaster, even if it's the one I use the most.
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Originally Posted by Reiska
Correct, Pistols gains no DoT from fire ammo. The other attacks do, though, as you've pointed out. However, as PleaseRecycle (correctly) pointed out, this effectively locks you into using Incendiary Rounds if you want to do anywhere remotely near decent damage, and as such destroys the set's primary gimmick for blasters. (As has been mentioned, it's a much better Defender blast set.)
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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On my DP/Dark Corruptor I mostly only flip flop between Fire and Lethal rounds. The other two types I find I rarely need. The knockback in Lethal--and specifically the fact that I can turn it off once I've got enemies where I want them--is the most important part to me. Executioner's Shot has a 70% chance for mag 1.6 knockback, which just so happens to convert to knockdown when you use it on a +4, and unlike other powers it never goes off when I don't want it to.
Anyway, I still don't see how folks aren't counting Hail of Bullets in DPs AoE damage. That power hits like a freight train. Just because Rain of Arrows is better doesn't mean Hail of Bullets is poor. We just have a Seeds of Confusion/Mass Confusion comparison here. And Full Auto has already been shown to be more or less even with Hail of Bullets once target caps are considered, making that come down to a draw.
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I'd disagree with you on Energy, simply because Energy Torrent is a lot better than it looks on paper. Dual Pistols certainly outperforms Psychic, Sonic, Elec and Ice on AoE damage... but only because those four primaries are actually missing core AoE attacks (Sonic and Ice have no targeted AoE blast at all; Psychic and Elec have no cone), not because those four primaries simply have inferior powers.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Huh? The only set that does more than 1% more damage than pistols in its tier 1 is assault rifle, which does 8% more. Flares does 1% more, i.e. is identical for all practical purposes. Every other tier 1 blast does damage scale 1, same as Pistols. Archery and sonic do 16% less damage, though at least shriek is balanced by its resistance debuff.
I would argue that the recharge times of the tier 1 and 2 blasts don't matter very much because with moderate global recharge and hasten you can chain them together indefinitely on any set. I suppose it's an advantage at low levels. Edit: Okay, it takes closer to perma-hasten recharge to chain them gaplessly, but that's hardly outside the realm of how people actually play. Didn't bother on my pistol blaster as I typically have things I would rather be doing than using my tier 1 and tier 2 blasts, the exception being while mezzed of course. In response to Reiska, just how much of a damage bonus would you consider balanced? Without even turning on inferno rounds, or considering tier 9s, dual pistols has stronger aoe than energy, psy, sonic, elec and arguably ice. Turn on inferno rounds and it immediately gains, to use Obitus' low estimate, 24% beyond that. That isn't enough? |
Even using Obitus' estimate of a 24% damage gain from fire rounds, all that happens with the fire rounds is that Bullet Rain ends up more or less on par with the other sets' targeted AoEs in damage, while Empty Clips is still awful. This would be fine, except that Dual Pistols gives up secondary effects to achieve this damage, and the other sets achieve this damage while still having their secondary effects.
What I can say for sure is that I don't support adjusting the actual damage of the attacks themselves - only the animation times of them, for that is where the actual problem lies.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
No it doesn't... the gimmick of the set is that you can switch between four different ammo types that do different things for different situations. I would say that lethal is better for soloing on a Blaster due to the knockback (it's even fairly high rate). And there are times when chemical and cryo are useful. Unless you believe that all four ammo types should do the same damage, the only person that's "destroying the gimmick" is the player, by deciding that the only thing that matters is pure damage, and opting for fire all the time. I switch off of fire fairly often on my Blaster, even if it's the one I use the most.
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* That said, I still prefer playing the DP to those other sets on the whole - the visual style of the set makes it just more fun to play. I just wish that I didn't feel like I was inordinately gimping myself to do so - it stands out if I duo with my friend's Archery/Fire blaster, for instance.
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It seems to me that the devs don't consider DPA as important as most players tend to, and I believe I can see why. Particularly with aoes, even if you have 150% global recharge before hasten, you will not have a gapless aoe chain just from your primary set. Alternate sources of good aoe are very limited for blasters - I don't know what PPPs they have access to but static discharge is the only "real" aoe available from a power pool, and aoes in assault sets have significant tradeoffs, largely being short range pbaoes.|
Originally Posted by Reiska
Even using Obitus' estimate of a 24% damage gain from fire rounds, all that happens with the fire rounds is that Bullet Rain ends up more or less on par with the other sets' targeted AoEs in damage, while Empty Clips is still awful. This would be fine, except that Dual Pistols gives up secondary effects to achieve this damage, and the other sets achieve this damage while still having their secondary effects.
What I can say for sure is that I don't support adjusting the actual damage of the attacks themselves - only the animation times of them, for that is where the actual problem lies. |
Given all of that, animation time is unlikely to be a real factor in terms of the aoe output of almost any blaster. At 200% global recharge, only assault rifle has anything you could call a seamless aoe chain and mixing in outside aoes would only harm its dps as it would cause redraw. Dual pistols has the next most crashless aoes and can also only just chain them gaplessly at such a ridiculous level of recharge.
In that light, from the perspective of anticipating the total aoe damage output of a farming player, dual pistols is harmed by its animation times at total global recharges exceeding 200%. Fire blast, on the other hand, can never chain its aoes even at the recharge cap and would have to resort to using blaze as filler, I suppose. Even the worst "real" blaster aoe does more damage than blaze in the world of hypothetical saturation, of course, so having gaps in which to insert single target attacks is not particularly enviable.
Anyway, my point in all of this, I think, is that the devs probably care how many demons you can mow down with an insanely specialized build designed to do nothing but that, as that has a real impact on the game. Dual pistols is probably the second best set for the hypothetical perfect farmer because it can throw down the second most aoe damage overall ceteris paribus. If its aoe animation times were reduced, its farming potential would increase.
Of course, in actual gameplay with builds that range from fairly below average to well above average, dpa certainly does matter because you will often be facing enemies that are actually a threat to you and your being rooted in place is very helpful to them, so even if you could sit there chaining aoes all day you would still value quicker ones for survival's sake. All I'm saying is that edge cases do matter to game balance and people have done much crazier things to amass loot than stick a lot of recharge onto a blaster. Even with empty clips in particular being a relatively slow cone, I've found that dual pistols does not have unsurmountable survival issues when going full bore on aoe.
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My bad. For some reason when I revisited the numbers before responding to the last posts I totally misread the damage, or I read Archery instead. I apologize.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Huh? The only set that does more than 1% more damage than pistols in its tier 1 is assault rifle, which does 8% more. Flares does 1% more, i.e. is identical for all practical purposes. Every other tier 1 blast does damage scale 1, same as Pistols. Archery and sonic do 16% less damage, though at least shriek is balanced by its resistance debuff.
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I would argue that the recharge times of the tier 1 and 2 blasts don't matter very much because with moderate global recharge and hasten you can chain them together indefinitely on any set. I suppose it's an advantage at low levels. Edit: Okay, it takes closer to perma-hasten recharge to chain them gaplessly, but that's hardly outside the realm of how people actually play. Didn't bother on my pistol blaster as I typically have things I would rather be doing than using my tier 1 and tier 2 blasts, the exception being while mezzed of course. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
It's funny that the conversation has changed to how bad 'Executioner's shot' is, as well as some sprinklings of 'what is DP supposed to be?'
I've been experimenting a lot with my DP dude, and the combo of Piercing followed by Execution is the combo that people seem to be missing.
One thing I've been doing is reading what some people have been saying, then trying to replicate it or disprove it. Some of what's in this thread is nothing more than conjecture (my posts as well.) And I still strongly believe the set has to be looked at as a whole because we can tear apart any set on a -power by power- basis.
Someone most recently said Piercing sucks because it only works with normal rounds. I didn't realize this, and did testing that I recorded with many minions, and Lt's. (I didn't test bosses because I needed to do longer, repetitive tests against foes I could go toe to toe with).
Essentially the claim is only half true, which is confusing and makes me think there is something wrong with Piercing. This makes Execution worse, because as I opened with, I believe they are a combo... Piercing + Execution are very nice........ BUT they work best in a convoluted manner:
Normal round Piercing + Incendiary Ammo + Build Up (energy) + Execution is really nice.
But the 'normal' Piercing round ammo type is best, but if you use Incendiary, it still has a 'mild' -res effect, but not close to useful enough to justify.
The short version is Piercing DOES work with special ammo rounds, but very little compared to a 'normal' ammo round. But I verified at least 30 times that it does work regardless, but not near as well as it should. I think this is broken.
*If* it is 'working as intended', then it is far too convoluted to consider due to recharge times of ammo types, and the combo because a button mashing nightmare.
Aside from this, I still think the set is doing just fine. I do admit executioner's shot is not quite what it should be, but the combo of piercing, build up, incendiary, execution is really solid.
Again the utility of the set still is excellent. I test many, many times against spawns of minions, and Lt's that the 'normal' round which includes knock down is still extremely potent and may be still one of the most underestimated utilities of playing single player. (yes there are some AT's i'm running into that laugh off lethal, but still.)
I'm still enjoying the toon. I might be missing something, but I still think people are asking for too much to have this set over hauled. Sorry... but it's true. I'd be happy with a minor tweak at best.
Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)
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The issue here is how much return fire will you take before everything dies. That's a real factor when you start dealing with large groups. If another set delivers its AoE in half the time as DP the enemies will deliver half the return fire. That can make a huge difference in the size of the groups you can destroy solo and may make the difference in whether you can skip Aid Self or not.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Given all of that, animation time is unlikely to be a real factor in terms of the aoe output of almost any blaster. At 200% global recharge, only assault rifle has anything you could call a seamless aoe chain and mixing in outside aoes would only harm its dps as it would cause redraw. Dual pistols has the next most crashless aoes and can also only just chain them gaplessly at such a ridiculous level of recharge.
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I am not on a crusade to increase DP's AoE effectiveness. With Fire ammo the set does fairly well. But playing Devil's Advocate I take a lot more damage running up to a spawn to use Bullet Rain and Empty Clips then I do with Explosive Arrow and Fistful. It's not just straight activation time either; with attacks that deliver a single burst of damage after a wind up I am not taking return fire during the animation time like I do when I throw Hail of Bullets.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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DPA is really of more importance when it comes to single-target DPS for exactly the reasons you state, yes: gapless AoE attack chains are unrealistic. (And frankly, despite how bad it looks "on paper", I'm fine with DP's AoE performance for the reasons you state, more or less.)|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It seems to me that the devs don't consider DPA as important as most players tend to, and I believe I can see why. Particularly with aoes, even if you have 150% global recharge before hasten, you will not have a gapless aoe chain just from your primary set. Alternate sources of good aoe are very limited for blasters - I don't know what PPPs they have access to but static discharge is the only "real" aoe available from a power pool, and aoes in assault sets have significant tradeoffs, largely being short range pbaoes.
Given all of that, animation time is unlikely to be a real factor in terms of the aoe output of almost any blaster. At 200% global recharge, only assault rifle has anything you could call a seamless aoe chain and mixing in outside aoes would only harm its dps as it would cause redraw. Dual pistols has the next most crashless aoes and can also only just chain them gaplessly at such a ridiculous level of recharge. In that light, from the perspective of anticipating the total aoe damage output of a farming player, dual pistols is harmed by its animation times at total global recharges exceeding 200%. Fire blast, on the other hand, can never chain its aoes even at the recharge cap and would have to resort to using blaze as filler, I suppose. Even the worst "real" blaster aoe does more damage than blaze in the world of hypothetical saturation, of course, so having gaps in which to insert single target attacks is not particularly enviable. Anyway, my point in all of this, I think, is that the devs probably care how many demons you can mow down with an insanely specialized build designed to do nothing but that, as that has a real impact on the game. Dual pistols is probably the second best set for the hypothetical perfect farmer because it can throw down the second most aoe damage overall ceteris paribus. If its aoe animation times were reduced, its farming potential would increase. Of course, in actual gameplay with builds that range from fairly below average to well above average, dpa certainly does matter because you will often be facing enemies that are actually a threat to you and your being rooted in place is very helpful to them, so even if you could sit there chaining aoes all day you would still value quicker ones for survival's sake. All I'm saying is that edge cases do matter to game balance and people have done much crazier things to amass loot than stick a lot of recharge onto a blaster. Even with empty clips in particular being a relatively slow cone, I've found that dual pistols does not have unsurmountable survival issues when going full bore on aoe. |
Of course, DP needs significant help in ST DPS too, and while ST DPS is irrelevant for farming, it's not irrelevant for TFs or trials where the focus is on a single enemy.
While I have no idea what the hell your DB/WP scrapper has to do with anything, or how we can consider a bunch of random numbers taken from mids and ignoring inferno rounds to be relevant to the discussion, I was hoping someone would bring this up:
Then we have the other last few posters making claims ranging from "trick arrow is a more damaging attack set than dual pistols" to the apparently popular belief that hail of bullets is weaker than either full auto or rain of arrows. We've even got one claim that hail not only does way less damage than either, but also hits way less (sic) targets! Fantastic.
I guess dual pistols must really be a below average set in the bizarro universe where any of this is true. I'm glad I don't live there.
Edit: Oh yes, and didn't someone say something about how dual pistols suffers because it requires you use so many more slots than other sets? It is literally the only blaster set where the maximum number of slots you could spend on the primary is 40 and not 45.