Well as far as helping the team...
Tranfusion- heals anyone near your target, as well as draining it's end and debuffing it's regen some, so it's good for keeping melee alive.
Siphon power- makes target hit for less damage, and buffs your damage, and anything near either your target or you at time you cast it.
Increase density- status protection plus enhanceable smash/energy resist (couple slots will get it over 35%).
Speed boost- increases recharge of powers, provides extra end, and slow/recharge resistance.
Transferance - major end drain on target, plus fills up your end and those of any allies near you or the targeted foe.
Fulcrum shift- use it on a large group to damage cap your allies, also drops damage of all foes hit
Left over from those assets is siphon speed, increases your own movement speed/recharge while decreasing foe's, repel, a situational positioning tool, and inertial reduction, group super jump and your replacement travel power.
Now, of course you're not helping in the same fashion as a dark/dark, but you're certainly helping the team none the less.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.
Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with. |
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Originally Posted by Angelofvalor
After playing dark/dark to around level 30 I perhaps will go back to him once I finish my ill/rad controller first. Anyways it just feels like there are to little of tools to help my teams, sure it helps your personal damage but playing a defender it just doesnt feel right, I highly enjoyed what tools I could use to help my teams and there where so many tools.
Sure kinetics is fast paced and its a fun and fast ride but it almost feels shallow like its not enough to bring it to 50. I am starting to think it might need a little work, sb is nice and all but its not everything. |
- Transfusion: one of the most powerful aoe heals in the game; debuffs enemy regeneration
- Siphon Power: boosts your own damage and damage of those around you; lowers enemy damage
- Repel: pushes enemies away from you
- Siphon Speed: boosts self travel speed; boosts self recharge; lowers enemy recharge speed; lowers enemy movement
- Increase Density: boosts teammate mez protection to knockback, hold, stun, and immobilze; raises team-mate resistance to smashing and energy attacks; protects against teleport
- Speed Boost: boosts teammate recovery; boosts teammate recharge speed; boosts teammate movement speed; boosts teammate slow resistance
- Inertial Reduction: boosts teammate jump
- Transference: removes enemy endurance; gives endurance to teammates
- Fulcrum Shift: lowers enemy damage; raises teammate damage.
Shallow... really. Just who do you think you are trying to fool here? Outside of repel and inertial reduction every other power has multiple effects.
Only two of those powers, speed boost and increase density, only boost your team-mate's stats. The other 5 powers boost your teammates stats at the same time they lower the enemies stats.
A kinetics is a frigging power-house of debuff and buff.
Also, here's a little clue for you: YOUR BUFFS ARE NOT FOR YOU
You are going to spend most of the fight sitting outside melee range casting your powers into the mob and letting your team-mates soak up the benefits. Play a kinetics right, and you can just pretty much skip your entire attack pool. You won't need it.
- You can put that nuke happy blaster into the middle of the mob and give them the protection they need to nuke, and get out alive.
- You can put that Tank or Scrapper who just crashed out on their Tier 9 right back into the fight.
- You can kill the stun on that player who just used a wakey
- You can protect your tank from Ghost Widow's Soul Storm.
- You can turn that controller pet that hasn't got any knockback protection into a killing machine with stat protection.
- You can damage cap brutes.
- You can kill regeneration on an Archvillain or a Giant Monster
- You can drain Hamidon's Endurance in LGTF in pretty much one shot.
- You can take away an AV's or GM's damage, giving that resistance based tank a bit of breathing room
- Not to mention a single shot of ID with just one resist IO is probably going to put fire, dark, and electric armors at Smashing Hard-Cap.
That being said, I will admit that Kinetics is not the set for everybody. To be a good kin you really can't do anything else but kin. The buffs and debuffs are some of the strongest in the game, and to balance the sheer power a kinetics can deliver and take away, many of the buffs and debuffs are short-lived.
Increase Density is a good case in point. It's the only anti-mez with knockback protection in the game. It's also the only player-targeted anti-mez that can buff a player's damage resistance values. So while the other anti-mezes, such as Clear Mind, Enforced Morale, and O2 Boost have timers of 1 minute and 30 seconds, ID only lasts just 1 minute.
While many other sets offer endurance boosting capabilities, Kinetic's Speed Boost is the only one that can keep a team stocked with endurance, slow resist, and recharge rate boosts, on just SO's.
Just keeping your team boosted with SB and ID will chow a good way into the 1 minute downtime on ID. Keeping up with Fulcrum Shift, transfusion, transference, and power-siphon, not to mention keeping your-own recharge up with siphon speed, will also eat into the downtime between ID applications.
Now if you try to keep up with the best Kin's in the game, such as Rave Kitty, you are going to be in for one BORING play-session since you'll pretty much be doing nothing but laying on the kin powers.
If you aren't looking for that level of commitment to the team, it's very possible that kinetics is not going to be a set for you to play.
I can sort of see where the OP is coming from in terms of the set being shallow, as it does perhaps rely too heavily on just a couple of key powers - Speed Boost and Fulcrum Shift.
Don't get me wrong, the rest of the set certainly contributes, as je_saist has quite thoroughly mapped out, but none of that really provides the mitigation other sets do, nor does it pull the set ahead of the pack for offense.
With Fulcrum not coming until 32, the early levels can feel a little underwhelming. Your debuffs are single target, and even if you do have the patience to keep a team ID'd the damage resistance it provides is only useful against fairly specific enemy groups. You do have a pretty beefy melee heal, but other sets are providing much more complete protection to the team during this time. Meanwhile the famed kinetics offense hasn't really kicked off yet - you're looking at double or triple stacked siphon power, which although certainly helpful, isn't really streets ahead of the damage boost many other sets will also be providing (mostly through -res, though there's some +dam out there too). So that just leaves Speed Boost, and while it's a hell of a buff, it does make the set feel a little bit of a one trick pony (although that trick will get you welcomed to, and indeed sought after by teams far and wide).
Course, once you do hit 32 you get trick number two, and it's a doozy. Once you have Fulcrum Shift, the relative lack of mitigation fades into the background as you turn the entire team into supercharged juggernauts of destruction. It's still a pretty one-dimensioned set, but now you're truly the king of that dimension.
So if the OP hasn't already, I'd say at least stick it out until 33-34. Take the advice from this thread as to the other powers in the set, and then see how Fulcrum grabs you; it really is a game changer for Kinetics. You may still feel it's not the set for you but at least you'll have a fuller picture of how it performs.
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Like others here have mentioned, Kinetics is FULL of team-oriented powers, so I am not sure how you reached the perception that it is "shallow" or "lacking" in tools for teaming.|
Originally Posted by Angelofvalor
After playing dark/dark to around level 30 I perhaps will go back to him once I finish my ill/rad controller first. Anyways it just feels like there are to little of tools to help my teams, sure it helps your personal damage but playing a defender it just doesnt feel right, I highly enjoyed what tools I could use to help my teams and there where so many tools.
Sure kinetics is fast paced and its a fun and fast ride but it almost feels shallow like its not enough to bring it to 50. I am starting to think it might need a little work, sb is nice and all but its not everything. |
My own take on Kinetics is that it is TOO BUSY on teams. Between using Speed Boost on Everyone, Increase Density on every Squishy (plus defense-based Melee toons), Tranfusion, Siphon Power, Transference and Fulcrum Shift, there was very little time left over for my Kin/Elec to use some of his own attacks.
However, if you were actually speaking of the "solo-ability" of Kinetics, that is a completely different subject. Could you elaborate your point some more ? Many people would be able to speak more specifically regarding your concerns in that way.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I have several 50 defenders and my 50 Kin/elec/elec is a heavy contributer to the team. Especially at the end of the game where most people (hopefully) have set themselves up with solid personal defenses (even the squishies), you can focus less on team defense and more on improving the teams performance. A kin, in my opinion, doesnt necessarily protect the team, but make the team perform to its maximum potential. I cap your damage, I make sure you never run out of endurance, I make sure (at least the melee's anyway) that you never die with my gigantic heal that is available every 3 seconds (I got a ton of recharge). Speed boost is an awesome power. Fulcrum shift is an awesome power. Just because they are amazing doesnt make the toon one dimensional. For arguments sake lets take 2 powers away from other sets. Lets take away Deflection shield and insulation shield from forcefield and see how well that set performs, Heal other and fortitude from Emp, Rad infection and enervating field from rad, acid mortar and ffg from traps, etc. Without these powers, these sets would seem pretty shallow too. Sure, alot of sets get those powers early. I wont dispute that. But it's not that long of a wait to get to 32 to be able to bust out the steamroller.
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This is just so wrong it hurts. Kinetics lives and thrives in melee. Get in there, damage cap yourself, make with the killing. If you spend most of your time outside melee range, you're as bad as bad can be. You got what? Two powers that can't affect you, one of which is easily emulated (and stackable!) via Sipohon Speed/Transference? Here's a little clue for you: ALL YOUR BEST BUFFS ARE AS MUCH FOR YOU AS THE REST OF THE TEAM|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Also, here's a little clue for you: YOUR BUFFS ARE NOT FOR YOU
You are going to spend most of the fight sitting outside melee range casting your powers into the mob and letting your team-mates soak up the benefits. Play a kinetics right, and you can just pretty much skip your entire attack pool. You won't need it. |
Hop in, damage cap yourself (and debuff the baddies), maintain your siphon speeds, belt out your heal between blasting the **** out of everything you see. Nuke away and transference your end bar back and laugh your yambag off. Kinetics is one of those sets that, when played right, can run ahead of the team and obliterate spawns on their own. Don't get the idea that you are a buffbot; that's for suckers and idiots. Kinetics makes everything better, including you, so don't squander your amazing abilities by hiding outside melee and acting like a fool. If you're purposely avoiding getting your own buffs, you will hate kinetics and kinetics will hate you. A kin that doesn't blast is the worst of all possible kins, worse even than one that doesn't SB the tank every three seconds in case he feels lonely.
Please allow me to refer you to the only guide you need for kinetics. Note how it doesn't say "skip attack powers because you should never blast you damn buffbot"? Yeah. Try playing your kin as a murderous death machine that can also buff the team, you will probably like it a lot more. Kin is great on fenders because you can actually maintain serious damage output on yourself. Don't be terrible like je_saist wants you to be!
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I....I....I agree....sooooo much (cept for the mean to je_saist thing cuz I like je_saist) |
Originally Posted by Emberly
This is just so wrong it hurts. Kinetics lives and thrives in melee. Get in there, damage cap yourself, make with the killing. If you spend most of your time outside melee range, you're as bad as bad can be. You got what? Two powers that can't affect you, one of which is easily emulated (and stackable!) via Sipohon Speed/Transference? Here's a little clue for you: ALL YOUR BEST BUFFS ARE AS MUCH FOR YOU AS THE REST OF THE TEAM
Hop in, damage cap yourself (and debuff the baddies), maintain your siphon speeds, belt out your heal between blasting the **** out of everything you see. Nuke away and transference your end bar back and laugh your yambag off. Kinetics is one of those sets that, when played right, can run ahead of the team and obliterate spawns on their own. Don't get the idea that you are a buffbot; that's for suckers and idiots. Kinetics makes everything better, including you, so don't squander your amazing abilities by hiding outside melee and acting like a spaz. If you're purposely avoiding getting your own buffs, you will hate kinetics and kinetics will hate you. A kin that doesn't blast is the worst of all possible kins, worse even than one that doesn't SB the tank every three seconds in case he feels lonely. Please allow me to refer you to the only guide you need for kinetics. Note how it doesn't say "skip attack powers because you should never blast you damn buffbot"? Yeah. Try playing your kin as a murderous death machine that can also buff the team, you will probably like it a lot more. Kin is great on fenders because you can actually maintain serious damage output on yourself. Don't be terrible like je_saist wants you to be! |
But the murderous carnage that is a kin...so much.
The Kin is the only defender I've had (and i have pretty much all of them at or near 50 cept for traps, sonic and cold) where I feel like I am a contributing factor to the death ball. I mean, defenders make teams into deathballs. That's what we do. However, in other sets, after you have made them awesome the deathball goes rolling without you. Sure you add a blast in there, your debuffs help things out quite a bit. But the Kin is the only defender I've made where after the ball is rolling, you are just as much a part of it as the rest of the team. It's like poking a bull with a stick and freaking it out, then instead of watching it rampage all over, jumping on its back and yelling "How ya like me now?". Case in point. Kin/elec/elec defender, run into melee with the scrappers/tanks/brutes Aim+fulcrum shift (ding! damage cap)+Ball Lightning+Short circuit+thunderous Blast+pop a blue and see if theres anything left alive to use transference on. You have done you job as a defender by buffing the team and also throw down stupid silly fun AoE death.
I think its more of the fact that kinetics is one dimensional as someone said above and no never made it into 30s with one, but here is part of the issue, ok you have recharge, slows, heals yea so what many defenders get heals, extra damage then super damage for your team, now the last one sounds awesome but in many guides people skip to powers which are repel and the mass one I forget what its called so to me the whole point of the kinetics set is sb and fuclom shift, and personally I do not find that fun.
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There are guides where someone takes a kinetics defender and doesnt take transfusion, transferance, increase density, siphon power, and siphon speed? These were defender guides? Really? And there are many of them? |
Originally Posted by Angelofvalor
I think its more of the fact that kinetics is one dimensional as someone said above and no never made it into 30s with one, but here is part of the issue, ok you have recharge, slows, heals yea so what many defenders get heals, extra damage then super damage for your team, now the last one sounds awesome but in many guides people skip to powers which are repel and the mass one I forget what its called so to me the whole point of the kinetics set is sb and fuclom shift, and personally I do not find that fun.
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I could possibly, sadly, believe controller builds without the above mentioned. But a kinetics defender who only takes 2 kin powers? What are they picking in these guides you read instead of their primary? Group fly?
Secondly, we get recharge, slows, and heals. Sure, just like many other defenders. Ok so we have an awesome aoe heal, a -damage that buffs at the same time, a -recharge that buffs recharge and speed at the same time (self only but that only means you are going to be doing more buffs sooner), a power that lets you (once you get a bit of practice in) cap damage for the team in one shot. Lets you not only offer endurance recovery with SB, but actually cap the endurance of everyone within range of the target mob. I'm not saying its the best defender, (that probly goes to cold/sonic most likely), but to call it shallow or lacking is just plain incorrect. If you dont want to play one, thats fine, plenty of ATs to try and find your fit. But if you take away anything from this thread, please come away realizing that a kin is a great benefit to you on your team. (especially if you are an ill/rad like you mentioned, since +recharge will only benefit you with PA).
kin is awesome on any team.
the only down side is that it's a very very busy set if you want to maximize its abilities. I don't log in one of my kins if I'm after a relaxing session.
But other than that, it's the cat's meow.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Agreed on busy. I have the same feeling, if I'm in for a relaxing session I'll pick dark/dark/dark instead since its about laying down sweet sweet blankets of comforting -acc. But if I just had a bad day at the office, or am jacked up on red bull, I crank up the headphones and bust out the kin for some crazy over the top action.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
kin is awesome on any team.
the only down side is that it's a very very busy set if you want to maximize its abilities. I don't log in one of my kins if I'm after a relaxing session. But other than that, it's the cat's meow. |
I agree with most of the previous posts, except your buffs are for you, too.
Let's put a face on a few powers. Siphon power is a 25% damage buff per stackable cast for all teams in the AoE of you when casted. Where are you going to find a damage buff that is quickly repeatable? It's not coming from assault. The other side of the coin is that the target is debuffed in damage potential for all damage types including psychic and toxic by 25%. To get this on say a sonic defender you need 2 little sonic bubbles and sonic disruption on an anchor. Even with fulcrum shift, this debuff is the real deal! Base recharge time 20 seconds; duration 30 seconds, you can do the math on this.
Now for siphon speed, this, on the debuff aspect (straight form Red Tomax):
RunSpeed, FlySpeed, SpeedJumping -0.625 for 60s [Non-resistable]
JumpHeight -62.5% for 60s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
RechargeTime -20% for 60s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
Max RunSpeed -3.5 for 60s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Did you catch the part in brackets? NON-RESISTABLE, even by AVs.
Transference is the best endurance replenish available in the defender primaries, but it too is a formidable DEBUFF. You can sap bosses, AVs, even GMs (I have sapped the Kraken and Eochai down to NO endurance) on kinetics.
So, you can stack siphon power down to a 50% debuff on bosses (AVs do resist this debuff), you can gimp their movement and recharge, drain them down to no end, all without hitting speed boost and fulcrum shift. This is fabulous contribution, and you will still want to SB and fulcrum shift the team. The gravy powers, the "I win" powers that make steamrolling all the more fun between the chewy targets.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Kinetics is a great set.
I also kind of hate it. So you're not alone.
Speed Boost is an amazing power. Too good to not use. And that's the essence of its problem. Because of that 2 minute duration.
The way I've put it in the past, Speed Boost is a power that is "balanced" by frustration. I am easily frustrated. So I avoid playing my Kinetics characters.
But I am always glad to get one on my team, because the buffs are that good, and I'm not the one being frustrated by them.
I think the problem here is that Kin on paper is the opposite of what a defender is suppose to be about. Defenders defend the team through support and generally this is done through mitigation and debuffs. While Kin has mitigation and debuffs, there is only two that are AoE based and nobody really cares too much about the AoE debuff when what they really want is the buff part of it. Kin is vastly a defender through offense. In terms of American football, it's not smash mouth, or even a pro style offense. It's pure a pure pistol, run and gun, or spread offense. You throw so much at the target that the target simply feels overwhelmed, or from a defensive stand point maybe the 46 defense, or one that's just blitz heavy.
If somebody really like the defensive nature of Dark/dark, then playing a Kin can be a rather different playstyle to deal with and I fully understand if somebody doesn't "get" it. There are sets that I simply don't play because I don't "get" them either. Also note the sheer speed of the set forces a person to really think about if doing so much is really worth it from a bang for your buck standpoint. I have more times than I care to remember. It was a major point when I got burnt out from the set swearing to virtually never play the set again. It literally caused me mental anguish to even play the set. I took enough time away from it to play it again and I enjoy it. I think it's great set overall, but it's not for everybody. I think it's one of the few sets that really forces you to either like it, or not.
Utter high speed destruction of the enemy isn't mitigation? I mitigate damage by removing enemies (sorry, stole that line from my scrapper playing wife). But yeah, yer right, we dont "defend" in the classic sense. We amplify. Maybe we should get our our AT category, Lvl 50 Kin Amplifier...or Lvl 50 Kin Uberer....hmm...Uberer....I like it. Gotta ring to it. 
as someone around here once said,
"Death is the ultimate debuff".
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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This is great advice on how to be a bad kin.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Also, here's a little clue for you: YOUR BUFFS ARE NOT FOR YOU
You are going to spend most of the fight sitting outside melee range casting your powers into the mob and letting your team-mates soak up the benefits. |
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I have to agree. My Kin spends more time hovering over the Tanks head than anywhere else. How else am I supposed to get my own buffs.
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
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I have no idea what you mean by "the mass one".|
Originally Posted by Angelofvalor
in many guides people skip to powers which are repel and the mass one I forget what its called so to me the whole point of the kinetics set is sb and fuclom shift, and personally I do not find that fun.
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As for speed boost and fulcrum shift, they're some of the most useful and powerful buffs in the game. The set isn't just about those two powers though. If you don't find them fun then the set isn't for you, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the set is lacking.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Shallow... really. Just who do you think you are trying to fool here?
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You didnt say what your secondary set was. Since you like Dark/Dark might I suggest Kin/dark/dark. I had a blast with mine. And feel free to drop SB, I know many people that do. Just keep in mind a Kin without SB might not be popular.
Griff you did not read that right, I said skip 2 powers which is repel and increase density, and yea a few guides recommend skipping it.
And as far as going with the blatant judgement on me for not liking kinetics, never did I think playing a defender was just for me, and kinetics is for you in some ways, kind of silly thing to say, and dark/dark has nothing for you to be quite honest only if you choose to see it that way of course. And maybe your right, maybe it just is not for me, there is nothing wrong with a buffing set but this is a damage set, still calling damage migitation is like saying blasters have migitation, sure it helps but there are other things that can truly protect the group.
And I never had an issue with the fast paced gameplay, in fact it is what I usually prefer.
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ok. now that makes sense. see, how i read "skip to powers" when it should have been "skip two powers" and "mass one" as "increase density" instead of some other undisclosed power that has area of effect. So yeah, I'm sure plenty of builds skip repel (i know i do) and ID. ID is a good power if you have the room, but I agree that it is skippable if your build is tight. Now if you feel I was judging you, and that hurt your feelings. Then I apologize. My intention wasn't to hurt your feelings, but a reaction to based on my misreading what you typed. Also, the jokes about damage as mitigation was just that. A joke. Sometimes humor is lost in a forum setting and for that misunderstanding, I am sorry. Hope it didnt hurt your feelings. I think you have gotten all the input you need from your original post on the matter and hope you have a great weekend. |
Originally Posted by Angelofvalor
in many guides people skip to powers which are repel and the mass one I forget what its called so to me the whole point of the kinetics set is sb and fuclom shift, and personally I do not find that fun.
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Buffs do not just mean defensive powers. Buff is just a term for anything that improves abilities or stats.|
Originally Posted by Angelofvalor
there is nothing wrong with a buffing set but this is a damage set
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Kinetics is the most offensively minded set available to defenders, but it's not completely without defense. It can stack more damage debuffs on an archvillain than any other set can.
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Is it a damage set without the buffs? No. It's a damage set because of the buffs, hence it's a buffing set that buffs damage just like Sonic buffs damage resist.
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Originally Posted by Angelofvalor
there is nothing wrong with a buffing set but this is a damage set
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After playing dark/dark to around level 30 I perhaps will go back to him once I finish my ill/rad controller first. Anyways it just feels like there are to little of tools to help my teams, sure it helps your personal damage but playing a defender it just doesnt feel right, I highly enjoyed what tools I could use to help my teams and there where so many tools.
Sure kinetics is fast paced and its a fun and fast ride but it almost feels shallow like its not enough to bring it to 50. I am starting to think it might need a little work, sb is nice and all but its not everything.