Wait... What Carnival of Light?

I think that the carnival side of things might actually be a very good fit for Praetoria, if the group was trying to represent what was missing from society. If fun is outlawed, only the outlaws will have fun, type of thing. I could certainly see Vanessa wanting her squads to look different, to be living embodiments of creativity, freedom, individuality. Rather than just another set of soldiers.

Esspecially if she wasn't happy with what some of those Resistance soldier types got up to.

Hells yeah! CoL respresent!

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

See, this is actually a very interesting point to work on, if not for one small problem: Vanessa is working with the Resistance. This doesn't change between 20 and 40, because this is what Calvin Scott tells Tina McIntyre after the mission in question. The Resistance themselves are modelled after the Freakshow in terms of general theme - they are chaotic, free-spirited, unstructured rebels who seem to enjoy action more than they enjoy culture, which is one of the points levelled against them.

The Carnival of Shadows, on the other hand, seem to have an entirely different thematic and motivation behind them, Fat Cat City notwithstanding. They appear to be a mixture between the decadence of high society and the rustic charms and wonderment of the old travelling circuses. This is a very unique thematic which only really becomes relevant in a free society of consumers, not one rigidly structured and with culture strictly controlled.

Were Vanessa DeVore a free agent out to employ her own brand of revolution through freeing the spirits and desires of the people of Praetoria, rather than through inciting anger and resentment (a hippie, in other words), then this would be a legitimate move. However, for whatever operational mandate, EVERYTHING on Praetorian Earth has to subscribe to this heedless duality between Resistance and Loyalists, much in the same way as all heroes get lumped in with Longbow and all villains with Arachnos. Vanessa is not, in fact, a free agent, but is instead one who answers to Calvin Scott directly, as do all of the Resistance, which limits the extent to which I can accept her freedom of action and association. There's this underlying "You're either Nexus or against us." mentality that serves to undermine the Resistances' otherwise good guy position and draw them into moral ambiguity which serves to counter the potential a Vanessa DeVore with less ugly hair can bring.

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I actually hope that - slightly off-topic - the duality of Praetoria will be loosened up quite a bit, allowing for third factions more easily. This would leave room for the Syndicate and their associates, for the Devouring Earth, for members of other states and other cities, for rival revolutionaries and, indeed, for Vanessa DeVore as a free radical leading her own resistance group unaffiliated with the capital R Resistance.

This would make for a far better story.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

One thing I never got was why Praetorian Earth Vanessa DeVore was dressed in this ridiculous outfit. I tend to want to "get" things that are presented to me, and this I simply don't get.

Primal Earth Vanessa's outfit is an extension of the evil carnival she has created, a sort of ring mistress in her evil travelling circus. It makes sense for her to look like she does because this is only natural for someone who created an organisation like the Carnival of Shadows. Effects follow causes in this way. Primal Earth's Carnival of Shadows represent a kind of mystical entertainment because Vanessa feeds on the decadence and simplicity of modern society.

On Praetorian Earth, however, effects precede causes. Primal Earth Vanessa DeVore is dressed loud enough to shatter glass, therefore Praetorian Earth Vanessa DeVore needs to be dressed in ridiculous colours and absurd short skirts, too. Why? Well, we're not sure yet, but we know this has to be like that, other wise, well... How would we know that's her? We have the effect - Vanessa's mannerisms and clothing - but we lack and cause for this. And this instantly makes me raise an eyebrow and ask "Wait, why?" This is never explained, and even when it is, it will just sound like a cross between a cop-out and a ret-con.

They built the world of Praetoria around "reflections" or Primal Earth characters but just... Never really got around to giving justifications to all of them, it seems. If the original City of Heroes followed a story bible that made it feel like there was a hidden plot behind every little event, no matter how insignificant, the new City of Heroes feels like there isn't enough plot to make even the stories we're seeing, and they're slapping the threads together ad-hoc. Which really isn't a good vibe to be getting from what could be a good story.

This I will actually buy. Not only CAN Vanessa leave her "psychic fingerprint" on her minions, she does that as a means of controlling them. Each porcelain mask a Carnival of Shadows wears actually contains a fragment of DeVore's soul which serves to both control the mind of the specific minion as well as to grant that minion psychic powers, or increase the minion's psychic powers if she already had those. We are never really led to believe that any of the Carnival ever had psychic powers of their own, and indeed most don't show the presence of any, only that it's Vanessa's own massive psychic powers that manifest through her minions.

In this you have a point. If the clockwork are capable of identifying psychic signatures, which given the Seer programme's success they probably are, then it makes sense why they would target the Carnival of Shadows based on Vanessa DeVore's mind being present in all of them. So this explains at least one problem in a way that's actually well consistent with established lore, grounded in precedent and without contradicting any other stories I'm aware of. This is GOOD!

It still doesn't explain why I'd bother picking on a random Carnie warehouse in a random part of town even though I know ahead of time they don't know anything, but we'll leave that for another time.

For now, thank you for showing me this angle. I really like it

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

There's another timeline hiccup the Devs did recently: the new Positron TF. At some point you get sent by Azuria into Oranbega. Yet it's supposedly Laura Brunetti's arc in IP that not only reveals the existence of Oranbega as more than a mere rumor, but also has you breaking the mystic wards the Circle have been using to hide it for years. Up until that arc the location of their base of operations wasn't supposed to be known for sure. At level 15, Azuria simply shouldn't be able to say "hey guys, go to this lost city the Circle live in" and pop you straight there. For one, it's existence in the modern era is just a rumor at that point, and for another they (at that level) are supposed to have wards in place that prevent her from doing it.

Personally I blame Ouroboros. All that mucking around with time by the Menders has gotten our causes and effects all screwed up.

Which isn't helped by the fact that the map for Carla Brunetti's first mission has been bugged for about four years now, and isn't actually the lost city of Ornabega but rather a run-of-the-mill blue cave. It's almost embarrassing to see the entry pop-up talk about worked stone and pillars when I'm in a natural erosion cave slash 1850s coal mine. And, yes, I've bugged this. Repeatedly.

However, the new Posi is not the first to offend in this manner. The Hollows did this way back when it first came about in I2. Back then, the final mission from Talshak the Mystic (before the Caverns of Transcendence) sends you into the lost city of Oranbega without so much as making a point of saying this is anything out of the ordinary. They've been practically unable to keep their own story straight very much from day one from the moment they started adding to it, when I think back far enough.

Remember the Shadow Shard cop out teleporters? Sure you do! Everyone who goes there does. Remember the Mole Points? No? Well, apparently, neither do the developers, because they've apparently forgotten that the contacts in there are talking about how they're planning to set down another Mole Point further in in a few months. That was six years ago. Hell, it took them a year just to fix the invisible interior in the Mole Points, and no, I will never let this go.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'll just say that I've never actually had Harvey for a contact myself. I have tanked his arc for a blaster. I was trying to keep up with the story because it was interesting, and she was filling me in as we went. I do remember her mentioning Vanessa for the first time after we got the bands and being totally confused about who that was. My original point being that it would have been nice to get intro'd earlier.

However, I've pulled up the Wiki article for Harvey and I see the "revelation" is in one of his random missions, not in the arc. Is that one always his first mission? If so then that's the missing clue I never had before since I didn't enter the equation until the blaster got the arc and asked me for help.

It's clear to me now that they should have kept the original carnie boss in that mission instead of replacing her with Vanessa (I'm only assuming that's what happened since I haven't had a chance to play Tina's new arc).

I still wonder how she got on the Alpha Team in the Rikti war if she wasn't known to have any particular powers and was just a "socialite." She must have had her army of drones "volunteer" for the duty and remained anonymous... a powerful telepath controlling an army under Sister Psyche's nose who somehow didn't detect it... or chose to ignore it "for the greater good" or was just too busy to notice with all the background rikti psychic noise.

... Dangit. Quote failure.. I was talking about je_saist and replying to Eiko-chan, not you. Clicked the wrong quote button!

Went back and fixed my post.

It always needs a woman to fix things properly

Although Calvin's problems kinda come from two women in the first place :P

That is his first mission, yes, as all of his other missions depend on the knowledge gained from that one. It's very similar to Maxwell Christopher's first mission where you get him the undiscovered Nemesis intelligence that he keeps referring to in every. Single. Mission that he has for you from then on.[/quote]

I do believe so, yes. Leaving a nameless Carnie boss or a named Carnie boss or even some kind of special Carnie boss would have been far superior, and would have made the mission feel ever so slightly less like a kludge. Why does Vanessa care about my incursion at that particular time when she hasn't shown up ever before? How can she keep me from fighting HER, but not any of her minions? Why did we need this cameo? If it were just a straightforward "Go see if they know anything more." mission, I'd have probably rolled an eye or two, but not really been that bothered. It's filler, which is boring more than it's infuriating. It's when that turns into filler which stomps on established timelines that my left eye starts twitching.

I actually don't remember all of it. Everything I've said so far I've quoted off memory, so I may be forgetting things. I do know she was remembered as a famous person, but not as a famous VILLAIN, that much I know for sure. I may be misremembering what kind of famous person she was remembered as, but I do know for a fact that Harvey would not send heroes to her party if he knew who she REALLY was.

As I recall, Vanessa's jaunt in the Rikti war wasn't as mistress of the Carnival. In fact, the way they're introduced, they feel like they just showed up one day and started hosting parties, which in the 40s would put them at "some time recently." I believe Vanessa's heroics in the Rikti War were genuine and the result of her own will before she came under the influence of Giovana Scaldi, which seems to have tainted her mind.

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Also, remember that Vanessa DIES at the end of To Save a Soul, enacting a violent version of the "Her soul left her body and has stolen some of your endurance." trick. At the end of To Save a Soul, Vanessa's soul leaves her body, leaving it dead and, if I recall correctly, leaving her own original porcelain mask as the souvenir of that arc. I'd have to check if I remember right, but I do know that the final thing she does as she is defeated is a death rattle Psychic Wail with... Pretty grim wording on its combat spam.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

In that case, I've deleted my post against you. Sorry man. May you float in rotund peace.

Women are the devil bobby!

While this logic makes sense from a game design stance, it's actually the exact opposite of what happens lore wise. From a story perceptive Venessa and Giovanna come first and the carnival is an extension of their aesthetic tastes. Since Both Venessas fashion sense are likely being shaped by their respective Giovannas, who predate any of the dimensional differences we know of, there's not really any reason to expect the two to dress differently.

Hey, it's cool, man. You thought I was being a jerk and called me on it. You should!

I thought you'd been replaced by your evil Praetorian double : WalkingThinLady.

(obviously she's not your exact double)

OK, I can buy that. Giovanna does show up as your run-of-the-mill Carnie boss, but that could be explained as Vanessa shaping her mistresses to resemble giovanna. I have some degree of doubt that renaissance Italy popularised ultra-short miniskirts, but that's easy to gloss over as artistic license. If we assume that Vanessa's appearance and that of her minions are both shaped by Giovanna Scaldi's influence and tastes, then I can see a good explanation of why both versions would end up looking patently ridiculous, and why their minions might, as well.

This turns my doubt into curiosity as to how a travelling circus can be explained in an environment that really doesn't support the concept. And, yes, I'm aware that other cities exist, but I'm also aware that the environment, what with Earth being mostly taken over by the Devouring Earth, doesn't really lend itself to a travelling anything. It'd be interested to see how those can be explained.

It'd also be interesting to know why absolutely nothing on Praetorian Earth is an exact copy of its Primal Earth counterparts BUT THIS DID. The PPD are different, the Clockwork are different, the villains are different, the heroes are different, the signature characters, even when their names hold true across dimensions, are still different... Yet Vanessa is almost exactly the same, only good? Why? It'd be interesting to see how they justify this... If they ever do.

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In largely unrelated news, something has been bugging me about Tina's arc, to the point where I have to ask about it - what is the point of that entire story? In the old arc, the point was discovering and eventually averting an invasion from Praetorian Earth. This new story seems to have me discover the same thing. Anti-Matter is constructing an instant army with which to attack Primal Earth, and Tina acts like this is the first time she's hearing about "an invasion from Praetoria."

Here's the thing: My character brought the news of an invasion when she swapped over to Primal Earth at level 20. In the process of hunting down Metronome, he led my character and James Noble to a factory where War Walkers were being produced, and they became fully aware that Emperor Cole was preparing an invasion. I was under the impression, both from Calvin Scott and the Dark Watcher, that the point in sending Praetorians over to Earth was to warn of the Invasion and prevent the war. I know for a fact the Dark Watcher know, who would have taken it back to Vanguard, who would have brought it to Tina, considering the Warcher shares other equally important information with her.

So why am I suddenly surprised that Praetorian Earth is getting ready for an invasion? If ANY plot point in the entire arc deserved a ho-hum "Oh, that? Yeah, we knew about that already." response it would be the invasion angle, since the world of Primal Earth ought to have known about this since level 20 and been preparing all the way up to 50. So why is this treated as the big surprise that it isn't while Vanessa's true identity is treated as no secret despite it not having been revealed yet?

What am I missing here?

*edit*
Here's the one sentence which really got to me, from Tina: " If the Praetorians are planning any incursions into our world, we need as much warning as we can get." Lady, I warned you about the Invasion 20 LEVELS AGO! How much more warning than that do you need?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Or it could be that Vanessa became disturbed with the two different mindsets of the Resistance (one to freedom, the other to anarchy) and branched off on her own to loosen the hold of Mother on the seers.

The mask, however is not non sequitor at all. It's a symbol that Mother a) has become well acquainted with and b) is greatly disturbed by. What better icon for your faction to wear.

It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets

... Hit it ...

So Vanessa DeVore was obviously someone at least well-known as a hero at this point (her first soul-devouring came during the war, IIRC)

The time-period had instances of venetian fashion declaring what women go topless.

You know that "decadent corrupt carnival city" that shows up in every fantasy novel?

That's Venice with the serial numbers filed off.

You should read up on the information on the Carnival over here, Vanessa/Giovanna formed the group as vigilantes, their methods just means the world sees them as Villains.

Also, remember, Praetoria isn't a mirror world any more, it just takes existing characters, puts them in different situations, and sees how they develop. Vanessa's appearance doesn't change because it has it's rooted in Giovanna, who's personality was shaped prior to the changes. She sides with the Resistance because Giovanna would be unlikely to join the side that takes away her freedoms, and here methods are seen as less extreme relative to her allies, making her seem more heroic than her Primal counterpart.

Praetorian Vanessa is in the Resistance because she wants to free her daughter from Mother.

Is there anything in Praetoria that suggests the Giovanna of that dimension is even around?

Here's the description from Paragonwiki

Giovanna is the only reason for Vanessa to be wearing a porcelain mask.