Katana and Shield Defense
By
Bunny_Slippers,
Posted on: 2010-12-01 11:56 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
The Katana attack set is two-handed. It's not that the sword itself can never be used except two-handed; it's that the animations for the Katana set are two-handed.
Correct, it's not just the weapon, but the powerset's attack animations.
Also... It is left handed.
So, shields would also have to be on the opposite hand.
Or the entire powerset reworked animation-wise.
And not just all of the attacks, but something with the base combat stance and the way katana works... I can't recall entirely what Back Alley Brawler had to say about that many moons ago... But there were reasons why Katana was done the way it was and why it would be a rather enormous undertaking to change now (I think the base stance is tied to it being left-handed and every single thing tied to that would need to be redone... Didn't sound like simply flipping the animations was an option).
These are the reasons why! 
@Zethustra
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... But... But... Broadsword is so slow! 
Thank you for the answers, y'all.
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
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It may be a bit slow, but it hits HARD. Plus, Perry makes it easy to softcap since Perry takes care of the Melee defense with one hit, so you can use your slots on Ranged and AoE defense.|
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
... But... But... Broadsword is so slow!
Thank you for the answers, y'all. |
I'm thinking about taking the Recharge on the Alpha Slot, so I can try to get my attack chain to be Perry-Headsplitter-Headsplitter-Headsplitter.
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I'd feel kinda bad for your opponent's noggins there, Local Man.
It would be nice if Katanas were given one-handed animations (that you'd be locked into if you have Shield as your Secondary) and Broad Sword get two-handed animations (that you'd be locked out of if you have Shield as your Secondary). Obviously, a clean switch between the two wouldn't be ideal, but it would be the easy way to do it (ideally, Katana would get more fluid, graceful motions, and Broad Sword would get more brutal, heavy motions).
Perry is the ultimate maneuver, named after the greatest warrior of all time "Perry McKillyourface."
Most of Katana's animations (including the fact that your left hand is on top) are screwed up for several reasons according to my Kendo-practicing friend. Not that CoH seems to worry about realistic fighting animations, but I would love alternate animations for Katana and Broadsword. My main character would use his "broadsword" two handed if it were an option.
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The issue is not that the Katana is used two handed, it is that when it is NOT held two handed, it is held in the left hand. So it is held in the same hand as the Shield would be. Broadsword's two handed animations (I think Headsplitter is two handed) can be replaced with a one handed one for the Sheild, because it's held in the right hand.
Dual Blades Katanas are able to have one in each hand because the animations are designed specifically around that. And IIRC, you cannot combine Dual Blades with Sheild. Because of course both your hands are full.
The only way it would work is if you could hold the Katana in the right hand if you had a Shield, and my understanding is that won't work, because the Left Hand stance is separate from the Right Hand and Dual Wield ones. Having a shield can't change you from Left Hand stance to Right Hand stance.
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It's a well known fact that it is impossible to parry any attack using Perry.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
Perry is the ultimate maneuver, named after the greatest warrior of all time "Perry McKillyourface."
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Just look at him:
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Oh, there you are Perry.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
It's a well known fact that it is impossible to parry any attack using Perry.
Just look at him: |
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Headsplitter is one handed like the rest of the set. I agree with your assessment, though - just pointing that out. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The issue is not that the Katana is used two handed, it is that when it is NOT held two handed, it is held in the left hand. So it is held in the same hand as the Shield would be. Broadsword's two handed animations (I think Headsplitter is two handed) can be replaced with a one handed one for the Sheild, because it's held in the right hand.
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I wasn't sure. Two handed animations CAN be used with Shield, though, for instance Heavy Mallet I'm pretty sure is two handed, and it uses a different animation with Shield. So the issue is not that Katana is two handed, it is that it is lefthanded.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Headsplitter is one handed like the rest of the set. I agree with your assessment, though - just pointing that out.
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Which I'm sure is part of some SINISTER Nemesis plot.
It's worth noting that real-life katanas are sometimes dual-wielded but NEVER used with a shield.
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No, Headsplitter and all the other crappy animations in Broadsword use a similar swatting, doesn't-make-sense-for-a-cutting-motion attack animation as War Mace and Battle Axe (both sets which don't look horrible with the said animations but don't look particularly stylish either).|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The issue is not that the Katana is used two handed, it is that when it is NOT held two handed, it is held in the left hand. So it is held in the same hand as the Shield would be. Broadsword's two handed animations (I think Headsplitter is two handed) can be replaced with a one handed one for the Sheild, because it's held in the right hand.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
It's worth noting that real-life katanas are sometimes dual-wielded but NEVER used with a shield.
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Using a shield with a katana (or any other set that is locked out of Shield Defense) really doesn't make sense...this is why I suggested an alternate look for Shields in the form of Strike Gauntlets. Basically, you can choose a glove option that would be rather larger than a normal glove (or consisting of different material like ice, energy or darkness) that would obscure the hand(s, arms and/or shoulders depending on how extensive the customization would offer). It's basically a gauntlet/forearm/pauldrone set as an alternate option rather than strapping a shield to your arm.
IMO, it would require less effort to do this rather than go in and switch the hand on Katana, flub with the hand nodes for Claws, Dual Blades and Spines *PLUS* give them sensible animations to work with a shield. The extra custom options (also available for other sets and not just the affected) would look great.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
It's worth noting that real-life katanas are sometimes dual-wielded but NEVER used with a shield.
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Pretty sure that's true of Martial Arts in general too, but there you go.
I think the most ridiculous toon possible would be one with the "huge" body type and an enormous manhole cover doing Eagle's Claw. Especially if it had those enormous "robot" legs from the Monstrous category.
Memory is fuzzy so I might be wrong, but: Wasn't there another tech reason for not allowing SD it be paired with Katana/DB? Something about the connection points, or nodes, or whatever only able to handle 1 thing? A sword AND the shield would need 2 points.
Again, fuzzy memory is fuzzy.
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It's because Katana uses the Two-Handed combat stance, which incidentally, is the same stance Archery and Assault Rifle use. |
Originally Posted by Bunny_Slippers
Memory is fuzzy so I might be wrong, but: Wasn't there another tech reason for not allowing SD it be paired with Katana/DB? Something about the connection points, or nodes, or whatever only able to handle 1 thing? A sword AND the shield would need 2 points.
Again, fuzzy memory is fuzzy. |
Dual Blades, Claws and Spines use the Two Weapon stance.
Shield defense uses either the Shield stance if there is no weapon, or the Weapon+Shield stance. It would NOT be a trivial thing to change the stance a powerset uses, since you'd have to redo the entire set from the ground up.
Couple points:
A) The combat stance issue is the same reason powers like Air Superiority and Kick cause redraw. Those powers do not use any of the combat stances that weapon sets use, and they would have to make a bunch of different animations for each power in order to make it work.
B) Every two handed animation that is used with a shield is actually a different animation from the normal one. A normal animation would use the No Weapon combat stance, while the Shield animation would use the Shield Combat stance. If it weren't that way you would put your shield away every time you attacked.
Got most of this info from Back Alley Brawler when I inquired why Kick causes redraw a year or two ago. There are significant tech reasons why the two handed powersets cannot be used with a shield. They would likely have to recode all the relevant powersets from the ground up in order to allow it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
the tech reason for no shield with katana, dual blades, spines, and claws was the sets took up the models "slot" (can't think of the appropriate term) for a weapon in that hand. The toon models can only have a certain amount of added things to them from powersets. The shield takes up the "slot" that would be used by the above mentioned powersets.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
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The term is "node"
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
the tech reason for no shield with katana, dual blades, spines, and claws was the sets took up the models "slot" (can't think of the appropriate term) for a weapon in that hand. The toon models can only have a certain amount of added things to them from powersets. The shield takes up the "slot" that would be used by the above mentioned powersets.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Now I understand! The Katana/Shield build is sick.
It has a code in the node.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
But how sickly broken would Spines/SD be? At least a tiny bit moreso than Fire/SD with respect to AoE, I'd guess. But probably *the* most OP'ed combo would be Claws/SD...
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(*nudge* he was making a pun...)
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
But how sickly broken would Spines/SD be? At least a tiny bit moreso than Fire/SD with respect to AoE, I'd guess. But probably *the* most OP'ed combo would be Claws/SD...
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Why can Katana not be paired with Shield Defense? I know the argument is or was that Katana is two-handed, and thus can not use shields. However, Dual Blades Brutes and Scrappers can wield two katanas, one in each hand, so that invalidates that argument. So what is the real deal?
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too