Defehnse vs Resistance

I weant to know about Defense and Resistance for Tanks. I have read the excellent treatise on defense that is on the boards. It just confuses me when I then look at the entire Tank arch type.

My issue is this, Tanks are best at resistances. and have the highest caps there of any AT. But building for defense makes more sense on any arch type. Brutes (or Scrappers!) can soft-cap defense. which means that a Scrapper is as tough as a Tank 98% of the time (except for debuffers, certain specials, etc) yet Scrappers do much more damage than Tanks.

It's like the Devs made a whole arch-type built around the color Red. (only you get this much red, you get more red saturation than any other arch type), then when designing the actual for the engine for the game were like "Red, huh, that aint so useful, F it"

So, do Tanks get significantly more Defenses at least on the Defense based Tank armor sets, or is that like microscopically more than Brutes and Scrappers get to build off of?

Combining both defense and resistance makes Tankers excel beyond what other ATs can do. Almost any AT can soft-cap (45%), or get to 32.5% (so a small purple gets them to 45%) defense in a few categories. The melee ATs can soft cap in more categories, especially if their powers include defense. Tankers can soft cap and have a ton of resistance to go with it, depending on the set they choose.

The difference in base values is significant. A Shield Defense Tanker can hit the soft cap on all positions without using set bonuses. That leaves the rest of the slots for them to focus on recharge, damage, and hit point bonuses. A Shield Defense Scrapper or Brute has to devote more than half of their slots to reach the soft cap, in most cases.

The true value of Tanker mitigation is when they combine defense and resistance. Stone Armor, Dark Armor, and Invulnerability are the three sets that have tons of resistance to go with soft capped defenses. I would actually rate them in that order for survivability and resistance totals. It should be mentioned that hitting the defense soft cap for Dark Armor is significantly more expensive than on the other two. A tanker that layers resistance, defense, and healing can survive a lot more than one who only uses defense. Take a look at Dech's Survivability Analysis thread if you want to see a quantitative analysis of survivability in different situations. The spreadsheet there is the easy way to calculate things.

Well, for MOST content, if you're fighting even-con foes, then yeah, you probably want to play a scrapper. But, there are some situations which call for more survivability, better crowd management, and where damage isn't a priority. That's when a Tank shines.

When people recruit for a TF, their priorities are such: A tank, some buffs, some debuffs, then damage. In that order. Occasionally buffs/debuffs take priority over a tank. But damage? With enough control and debuffs, any team can melt anything. A team of all damage dealers can still run into problems. But add one meat-shield and those problems go away.

I find that the so-called special circumstances that penalize this-or-that means of damage mitigation are more and more common, frankly. On paper analysis is well and good, but unless all you wanna do is farm, then your build is gonna have its weaknesses exposed at some point.

And if all you wanna do is farm, then you can make even a fairly squishy character work for a given repeatable mission. Otherwise, not so much. You can be cruising along at */x8 difficulty and suddenly hit a brick wall -- whether that wall is the ludicrous, energy-based DEF-debuffing of Paragon PD, the copious psi/toxic damage among Carnies and Arachnos, the absurdly high innate ToHit of Rularru or Devouring Earth, the preposterous and often auto-hit DEF debuffs from Circle of Thorns, the insta-gib energy drain of Malta Sappers. Whatever your poison, one thing's sure: There is a poison out there for your build. DEF is about as brittle as it's ever been, at least since Issue 7 -- if only because now we players now have more incentive not to cherry-pick our opponents (tip missions, Incarnate content and the carrot for running TFs).

Don't expect that trend to change.

Tankers have weaknesses just like anyone else, but they have a good deal more margin for error -- more time to react, more HP and higher caps to which to buff themselves (or have others buff them), better aggro control so that they can afford to spend a few moments here and there chompin inspirations or trying to find that half-forgotten temp power when the fit hits the shan.

With all the buffs/debuffs thrown around by high-level mob factions these days, you really can't just look at any given build's DEF number and declare it enough. Enough is subjective. Layered mitigation is where it's at, and Tankers have the highest potential layering by default simply because they have the highest hitpoints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

The Tanker AT depending on the build and the choice or powers ( as well as the intelligence of the builder ) IMO will always be the most survivable AT possible. I have IO'd brutes to the soft cap and it was MUCH more expensive to do so than a tank. I dont have any defense based scrappers and in all honesty I find scrappers the most boring AT in the game. Ive made two and thats probably all I will ever make.

A scrapper is not as tough as a tank. A scrapper at the soft cap will have less hit points than a tank and their resistance cap is much lower than a tank as well.

Thank you, that answers my question quite authoritatively everyone. i suspected some of what you said, but it is nice to get the exact information, filtered by people with actual play knowledge. i may have even learned a few things, hope I retain it.

It looks like for me I will concentrate on a Dark/Invul when I want a Tank. I actually have a Dark/Invul as a Brute which is my main. He is built for recharge, which i already know is not "optimal", but I have my reasons, i have tons of fun, and i love it. But for those times when i really, truly, want to hold damage for the team I will think about this build for tanking, built to softcap Defense with 1 in range, and then just cramming whatever other bonuses fit in easily. Maybe look for a guide when i'm ready. Again, thanks.

I think you should also note the effects of debuffs.

Defense debuffs are common, and are not naturally resisted unless you have a power that specifically resists them. All tanker defense sets have a defense debuff resistance power in them, if I recall. I'm not all other ATs do, and the ones with debuff resistance have lower values.

More importantly, resistance debuffs are resisted naturally by resistance: If you have 90% resistance, you also have 90% resistance to resistance debuffs. This gives tanks a very strong advantage against resistance debuffs, as their cap is much higher and their base resistance values are larger. A scrapper at his cap of 75% resistance will feel 2.5 times as much debuff as a tanker at his cap of 90%.

These incremental factors -- higher health, layered defense and resistance, much better debuff resistance -- all combine to make tanks much more hardy than other ATs.

Tankers have weaknesses just like anyone else, but they have a good deal more margin for error -- more time to react, more HP and higher caps to which to buff themselves (or have others buff them), better aggro control so that they can afford to spend a few moments here and there chompin inspirations or trying to find that half-forgotten temp power when the fit hits the shan.

With all the buffs/debuffs thrown around by high-level mob factions these days, you really can't just look at any given build's DEF number and declare it enough. Enough is subjective. Layered mitigation is where it's at, and Tankers have the highest potential layering by default simply because they have the highest hitpoints.[/QUOTE]

So true, I had a awesome inv/ss tank post GR. Could tank anything bar psi. Didnt need buffs or heals. Now since the release of GR and the new preatorian story arcs he melted in a second against the new clock work? Much to my disbeleif my mighty tank had fallen. So thats the truth behin every tank has an achillies heel, even with soft cap defenses and hard capped resistance.

pffffffffffffft My Inv/Nrg laughs at Psi... you might THINK he is gonna die.. but he wont..

Success is measured differently by different people, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

If your secondary or ancillary sets have cone attacks linked into them, try to use a little mobility or your environment towards your advantage. Not only will it line up opponents for better shots, but it will severely limit their ability to maintain optimal DPS by either forcing some of them to use weaker ranged attacks since you are no longer quite within their melee range or it will force them to waste time attempting to relocate, which reduces the amount of incoming fire being placed on your character.

I find this particularly effective with Energy Torrent and Foot Stomp. I tend to alternate between jumping into the pile and hitting them with Foot Stomp, then leap back about 15 feet to line them up for Energy Torrent. Because Foot Stomp forces a return to their melee distance at regular intervals, it keeps them clustered without forcing you into a contest of pure statistical reliance.