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Originally Posted by Veslin
Well, now that the other pets are starting to run into melee as well, it's been discovered that all pets are squishy, but the ranged ones just stayed out of the thick of things.
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My Bots: Not squishy.
Defense softcap: Well past.
pwned u: *pew pew pew*
The only issue I have with taking all agro on myself in BG mode is the insane amount of Mezzing that gets thrown my way. Yes, there are breakfrees for that, but still. Far as I know, being held drops BG mode just as it does a number of toggles as you are 'unable to command your pets in your current state'.
That aside, I've noticed that the attack/defensive command allows you to dictate targets while retaining BG mode, though there might be a slight 'gap' in the coverage when you issue the command.
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This strikes me as the key point. Back in the old days or so, I would read about people frustrated with pets they wanted in melee being a real hassle to get there. Now, we have people who want their pets to stay at range having trouble keeping them there. (For that matter, maybe there's still some of the first too. On my DS char, I notice if I'm fighting a group that's gotten spread out, I'll end up with one demon melee attacking where I want it to be, and another off doing ranged attacks from some odd position and taking far more damage than it probably would if it were meleeing, and thus more likely to be in range of my defensive powers.)|
Originally Posted by Vessel of Light
Durability isnt the problem, it is the fact that I can not control the pets to act in the manner that I want them to that drives me nuts.
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MM's shtick is supposed to be controllable pets I thought, so when the controls don't work very well... It's kind of a pain. And it's really too bad, because my Bots/Storm was amazing fun when the bots wouldn't start chasing after the enemies I'm trying so hard to keep away from them.
I know this is mainly a bots thing, but my demons are super squishtastic, unless I debuff things with poison, I lose demons left right and center.
And now they are not doing what they are told, which just means more dead demons.
However they do seem to enjoy ranged attack for the most part, but they definately dont substitue a good meat shield.
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I used to one of these said Masterminds. For whatever reason, I like the melee pets more (just a fan of undead stuff and martial-artist yojimbos, I guess), and it was incredibly frustrating to watch your pets fire off their lone ranged attack and sit and do nothing at range for 8 seconds, waiting for recharge. I actually gave up on Mastermind for a while because of it. With the changes, I find that mastermind is actually a good AT, and melee pets function exactly like they should, firing off their two ranged attacks, closing to melee and then cycling ALL attacks, both ranged and melee. On a recent Ninjas mastermind I made, I was SHOCKED to see this latter function, as I expected them to switch entirely to melee once getting to the enemy, but they continued to use ranged attacks between melee strikes, much to my delight.|
Originally Posted by Morganite
This strikes me as the key point. Back in the old days or so, I would read about people frustrated with pets they wanted in melee being a real hassle to get there. Now, we have people who want their pets to stay at range having trouble keeping them there.
MM's shtick is supposed to be controllable pets I thought, so when the controls don't work very well... It's kind of a pain. And it's really too bad, because my Bots/Storm was amazing fun when the bots wouldn't start chasing after the enemies I'm trying so hard to keep away from them. |
That being said, ranged pets with no melee attacks is just silly to see run into melee. I see little reason they could not do something like allow masterminds to choose which AI they want: the old one or the new one. Surely they have backup copies of the AI script and could let you choose which one you wanted to run.
We are NOT equal.
I really have to stop complaining about my bot ai. On test I soloed both the Honoree and the new Vanguard AV. The Vanguard AV was soloed without inspirations.
So I'm still fighting at Incarnate level before I19. 
The Case Against Hardcase- arc id: 438272
Clowning Around- arc id: 408447
Down the Rabbit Hole- arc id: 193055
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Now that's just crazy talk! Common sense has no business here!
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Originally Posted by Scene_EU
or keep melee based pets with inherent brawl, and give range based pets an inherent range attack with similar dmg/acc stats to brawl?
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Ow thought this bug was just me! This explains my Gun Drones behaviour!
Dear Op aint ranged pets supposed to be ranged and melee pets supposed to be melee?
Meaning they are balanced from their positions? if ranged toons are in melee and have not got aggro control (most melee pets have hide/heal/placate) they are just getting ganked?
that is not to say you cant get it to work but its still not WAI. I really don't see everyone being the same now range toons are gimped it means melee toons survive longer
Personally I find this working well for my zombies as now they run in and hit the enemy with AoE and cone vomit at point black range along with my Grave Knights. Just gotta heal them at the right time.
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I always wondered why its always that one bot. More the Drone then the Protector bot.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
How are you people having problems with your bots?
I have an occasional protector bot or drone run into melee range, but it's nothing a goto command can't fix. Hell, most of the time I want my bots in melee, because that's where I am and that's where my FFG is. It's just easier that way, and I don't have to "resummon all the time." Also, in response to the OP, there are tools to keep your melee pets alive. It's called bodyguard mode. If you can't figure out how to play your ninjas or necro well, I'm sorry. |
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
As was mentioned and I have chimed in a few times on other threads.. Provoke really does fix many of these issues. Forget controlling the pets control the mobs. Again You need some sort of defense cap to attempt this. Of course Traps and Force Field do this the best followed by Dark maybe.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Originally Posted by Veslin
I used to one of these said Masterminds. For whatever reason, I like the melee pets more (just a fan of undead stuff and martial-artist yojimbos, I guess), and it was incredibly frustrating to watch your pets fire off their lone ranged attack and sit and do nothing at range for 8 seconds, waiting for recharge. I actually gave up on Mastermind for a while because of it. With the changes, I find that mastermind is actually a good AT, and melee pets function exactly like they should, firing off their two ranged attacks, closing to melee and then cycling ALL attacks, both ranged and melee. On a recent Ninjas mastermind I made, I was SHOCKED to see this latter function, as I expected them to switch entirely to melee once getting to the enemy, but they continued to use ranged attacks between melee strikes, much to my delight.
That being said, ranged pets with no melee attacks is just silly to see run into melee. I see little reason they could not do something like allow masterminds to choose which AI they want: the old one or the new one. Surely they have backup copies of the AI script and could let you choose which one you wanted to run. |
The commands can be the same, but there meanings could be different to each range or melee set. As some sets have a mix of melee and range I see no reason why I could not give a different meaning of Stay for a ranged toon compared to a melee toon. Example Stay for range toon would mean Stay by me and don't move, do not pursue fleeing mobs. Whereas for melee it might mean Stay until attacked and then go fight. Only chase a fleeing mob 20 feet and then come back to me.
You could have a combo of numpad commands and other power bar buttons to help mix and match what you want. If you felt so suited to make it as complex or simple as you wanted.
Basically allow for standard commands and have the player the option of modifying the original commands by right clicking on them and then clicking radio buttons to activate different elements of the power.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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No. The delay in switching to the stance to Follow was to prevent MMs from abusing Bodyguard mode. It would have allowed MM's to have complete control over whom their pets attack and have the nigh invulnerabiltu of BG mode. When Bodyguard mode was first announced, I saw that exploit right off the bat. The devs anticipated the craftiness of the players.
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Then there's the fact that giving a pet the Follow command seems to suppress their AI entirely for about five seconds. That's probably intentional, to keep the pets from instantly gaining aggro again. But between standing around after a Follow command, and the time they waste trying to run to melee, they're spending a lot of the fight... not fighting. I really hope the devs are devoting some effort to fixing it.
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pet AI is worse now since i19. Giving commands is now like shouting at a dead deaf person.
My MM has better def, rech, res and acc with inherent fitness, but my bots got dumber. If I stick an alpha in, my pets will probably refuse to spawn when I summon them, or will spawn in the middle of a TF on another server. Programmed with Artificial Idiocy would be more accurate.
http://www.scene-and-heard.com/cov/covsig.jpg
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Even if that is true, the current functionality is a problem. You attack NPCs. Your pets spaz out and start running around at random, either to use melee attacks on targets across the room or to flee from any kind of persistent AoE attack. You use Follow to bring them back, and they stop doing anything for five seconds. They start attacking again, and immediately resume going berserk. You use Follow, and they stop doing anything for five seconds. The fact that Follow turns off their AI may be working as intended, but it is compounding the current issues with their AI. The unpredictable and uncontrollable AI is what I was referring to, and what I hope the devs are going to bother to fix.
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Originally Posted by Fuzun
No. The delay in switching to the stance to Follow was to prevent MMs from abusing Bodyguard mode. It would have allowed MM's to have complete control over whom their pets attack and have the nigh invulnerabiltu of BG mode. When Bodyguard mode was first announced, I saw that exploit right off the bat. The devs anticipated the craftiness of the players.
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Well, my thugs pets with soft capped defense is anything but squishy. However that is beside the point. If I wanted pets that melee more, I would've gone with another primary to begin with. To have the new borked AI make that choice for me is silly. All MMs might as well have only one type of pet if that was the intent. The fact that this new AI is absurdly buggy and uncontrollable only magnifies the problem.
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Originally Posted by Veslin
So, I hear most MMs complaining that they don't like how their ranged pets are now running into melee, and I have to say, it seems like the 'rangers' now just have to deal with the same problems Ninjas/ and Necromancy/ have always had.
People have always complained that the Ninjas and Zombies were squishy. It's probably the main reason they are the most rare types of masterminds (I still see more Mercs than these two). Well, now that the other pets are starting to run into melee as well, it's been discovered that all pets are squishy, but the ranged ones just stayed out of the thick of things. In my opinion, this now levels the playing field for all masterminds. Melee pets already have a disadvantage- they are single target. Under the old AI, they also died faster. They did not have any extra protection to mitigate the fact that they were melee, they didn't do more damage than other sets, there was no trade off for this propensity to die more often because they were closer to the enemy. So it was a double penalty for them, Single target AND they died faster. Now, all pets at least have similar survivability. Instead of only Zombie and Ninja users having to resummon all the time, now all masterminds have to do so. On a closing note, pets that do not have melee attacks (IE Phantasm) running into melee, I agree is rediculous. But minions all having similar lifespans because they all die to AOE melee attacks, that just seems fair to me. |
This bug is one of the greatest things to happen for undead and ninja MMs and the crappiest thing to happen for all the others.
I am happy as my undead do what they are supposed to do for a change but still want a fix for the more commonly used ranged minions.
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No it isn't. I didn't gain one bit of functionality that I didn't have with Goto. I lost control in the process.|
Originally Posted by Rebus_Sohal
This bug is one of the greatest things to happen for undead and ninja MMs and the crappiest thing to happen for all the others.
I am happy as my undead do what they are supposed to do for a change but still want a fix for the more commonly used ranged minions. |
It was only a "gain" for lazy players of melee pets.
Then there's the fact that giving a pet the Follow command seems to suppress their AI entirely for about five seconds. That's probably intentional, to keep the pets from instantly gaining aggro again. But between standing around after a Follow command, and the time they waste trying to run to melee, they're spending a lot of the fight... not fighting. I really hope the devs are devoting some effort to fixing it.