Quote:
No. You're reading the wrong numbers, as usual -- to conform to your bullheaded biases.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Difference noted. 35 points extra damage, or roughly 29%. thanks. Plus the toxic resistance.
|
Here, I'll bold the relevant numbers for you:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
5 slotted hecatomb without the damage proc but with everything else in smite is 124.9 damage.
5 slotted hecatomb without the PURE damage IO, but adding in the damage PROC is 153.66 damage. 5 slotted hecatomb without the Dam/rech IO, but with the Pure damage IO and the PROC is 157.5 damage 6 slotted hecatomb with everything is only 160.24 damage. |
But wait, it gets better. Once you add the ~150% damage bonus from Fury, that 4.2% difference drops to somewhere in the 2-3% range. The pure-damage Hecatomb IO wouldn't be worth it even if it didn't cost any influence. It is simply a matter of saving slots for other, more worthwhile tasks -- like, say, enhancing Hasten.
Oh, that's right. You didn't take Hasten. You didn't even know the recharge-reduction formula until I explained it to you a few minutes ago in another thread. But that didn't stop you from loading your build with purples and PvPIOs for the sake of recharge -- and then starting a whine fest in the market forum about how those enhancements are too expensive.
Panacea in Siphon Life is hilariously bad on two levels: You're spending massive amounts of influence for a PvP set (influence that the so-called capitalist pigs on the market forum are extorting from you), and then gimping one of your best attack powers to slot it. Likewise, your slotting of Midnight Grasp is terrible; it would be LOL-worthy enough if you'd slotted MG with five Gravitational Anchors, but you went with six, I guess because you were just jonesing for an excuse to buy another purple.
That's two of your best attacks gimped in the name of your bitterness-laced spending spree. Not just Siphon Life.
But I think my favorite wrinkle in your build as posted -- after all of your class-warfare rantings and all your pontification about how your personal experiences validate your build decisions -- is that you wrote a whole rationale for extra recharge in Dark Consumption, because presumably you have end issues, but you don't even have the comparatively cheap Miracle and Performance Shifter procs slotted. (Cheap as compared with purple and PvP sets, that is.)
In fact, you seem to place an undue emphasis on regeneration based on your slotting of Health -- which isn't a terrible idea on an Invuln build generally -- but just from using Siphon Life slotted as a normal attack, you'd get more healing over time than you'll get from those extra slots in Health. Including the Regenerative Tissue proc.
Those are just a few observations. Enjoy your super-expensive gimpiness. By the way, as one of the criminally minded capitalist pigs from the Market forum, I only have a handful of purples slotted across all of my builds. All of them are singular proc enhancements. I don't have any PvPIOs. All of my builds are better than yours, for a tiny fraction of the cost.
There is no broad segment of the game's population -- marketeer or otherwise -- that slots or even expects to slot as much expensive crap as they can on any one build purely for the sake of slotting it. The key is not how much influence you have, beyond a certain point. The key is how sensibly you use it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
The best Dark Melee attack chain, atlest according to my knowledge is this:
My build can run it, and here are my numbers.
Midnight Grasp->Smite->Siphon Life->Smite
Which takes 5.94 seconds due to animation time
240.43+157.5+181.88+157.5
=727.31/5.94
=124.13DPS
Your chain, would go MG->smite->gloom->smite
Which would also take 5.94 seconds
Which is 127.2+152.25+191.23+152.25
=622.93/5.94
=104.87DPS
There are people who, instead of listening to what is being said to them, are already listening to what they are going to say themselves.
I’m surprised ppl keep posting here.
But i have to go out and defend Blue_Centurion. I was once an ignorant noob (Imo I was still a noob until recently, still a newb when it comes to most of this game though) that wouldn’t listen to anyone even if they put facts right in front of me. I too created threads of me ranting that then got large amounts of replies with people disagreeing with my. Why hell, i think i was even banned once (I’m actually not sure about that last part). But eventually you actually try out what someone else says and then you are blown away. It just hits you, they were right . . . and I was wrong.
When i use the term noob i mean someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about but thinks they do. However, newb means someone who doesn’t know what they talking about, so when they ARE talking about it they are actually asking for help from other players.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Quote:
This would require Smite to recharge in 1.32 seconds or less......|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Your chain, would go MG->smite->gloom->smite
Which would also take 5.94 seconds Which is 127.2+152.25+191.23+152.25 =622.93/5.94 =104.87DPS |
I would love to see the build that could pull that off
Quote:
Ya know, i just realized that..I was typing it out on my GFs laptop, and totally forgot the difference between siphon life and gloom's animation time. I'll have to rework that last attack, or just drop it completely. |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
This would require Smite to recharge in 1.32 seconds or less......
I would love to see the build that could pull that off |
Maybe shadow maul would be a decent enough replacement. B_C isn't giving me much to work with.
ok, so reworking the math here.
Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Gloom -> Shadow Maul
2.244+1.188+1.32+3.3 = 8.052 seconds, should be seemless.
127.2+152.25+191.23+226.3 = 696.98 total damage
=86.56DPS
About 40 or so DPS lower then my build, and i've kept all the same attacks you have, plus about equal recharge (112.5%, 182.5% with hasten, which allows hasten to be perma)
How about....
Smite-Gloom-SP-Smite-MG
he didnt take SP.. thats the problem. Its not in his build 
This is what he gave us to work with.
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|09A5|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
And this is what i manage to turn it into, which i don't think hes yet to take a solid look at:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1464;723;1446;HEX;|
|78DA8D935B4F134114C767BB5B96DE5B4AB9140AA51528141 6EA2D5C4C4C0049501|
|AC18A1A35D6B51DE84A539AB61879F303E0F5419FFC229A78 F7DB688CFAA8B19ECB|
|16F0CD4DFAFF9D39FBDF9973663AD9FB4B5E211E9C158A67B 16CD6EBF985DA6E433|
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
ahhhh
Yeah didn't see any build in the thread... sorry bout that
Quote:
I didn't quote your full post, as excellent as it was. What's sad is that I'm virtually certain that Blue_Centurion will not understand your advice at all. If he really slowed down and read your full post carefully, he's have a major epiphany. Instead he'll skim it and disregard it since "you don't get it". He really, truly believes he's building a super powerful build, not realizing how weak it is. |
Originally Posted by Obitus
[Tons of specific and accurate observations omitted.]
Those are just a few observations. Enjoy your super-expensive gimpiness. By the way, as one of the criminally minded capitalist pigs from the Market forum, I only have a handful of purples slotted across all of my builds. All of them are singular proc enhancements. I don't have any PvPIOs. All of my builds are better than yours, for a tiny fraction of the cost. There is no broad segment of the game's population -- marketeer or otherwise -- that slots or even expects to slot as much expensive crap as they can on any one build purely for the sake of slotting it. The key is not how much influence you have, beyond a certain point. The key is how sensibly you use it. |
One thing that reveals his lack of understanding is that he keeps saying things like "Siphon Life is no Knockout Blow." He's thinks big numbers rule. That's why he wants to slot Siphon Life for maximum healing. He doesn't understand that if you machine-gun moderate numbers they can add up to more than a slower cycle of a big number.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Your MG will do 233 damage, mine does 346.
Without damage IO, your SL will does 166, mine does 238.
(Those number with 50% fury, more or less. I don't know all the specifics of your build)
I still manage to get 66,6% acc/end, 88,5% dam/heal and 48% rech on SL.
So THAT's the difference in number. You're penalyzing yourself twice in DPS with that slotting.
If you're talking of aoe DPS, then yes continue using obliterate and Shadow Maul. The other attacks really don't matter, since they are single target.( 100 or 200 on one target is equally crappy compared to 75 to 10 target or 100 to 5 target.)
If you mean DPS damage, using obliterate and SM is a huge error. You might still do around the DPS of an SOed DM brute with a real single target chain, but you're a world away from a real purpled or well IOed ST chain.
So basically... you're penalizing yourself by using two aoe attacks in a ST chain, and with two attacks that you slot as pure heal and immob.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Quote:
That is the attack chain for Scrappers. Siphon Life also recharges in 2.112 seconds and the total activation time for that attack chain is 6.732s (2.244+1.188*2+2.112) not 5.94s.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
The best Dark Melee attack chain, atlest according to my knowledge is this:
My build can run it, and here are my numbers. Midnight Grasp->Smite->Siphon Life->Smite Which takes 5.94 seconds due to animation time 240.43+157.5+181.88+157.5 =727.31/5.94 =124.13DPS |
For Brutes, the best attack chain for Dark Melee is MG/Smite/Gloom/SL/Smite/Gloom. It requires a significant amount of recharge in Gloom (needs to recharge in 3.3s), but it is reachable. In fact, with the alpha slot it becomes even easier to hit. For those interested, you need about 170% global recharge.
For comparison purposes, I used your damage numbers:
MG:
- damage: 240.43
- arcanatime: 2.244s
- damage/arcanatime: 107.14
Smite:
- damage: 157.5
- arcanatime: 1.188s
- damage/arcanatime: 132.57
SL:
- damage: 181.88
- arcanatime: 2.112s
- damage/arcanatime: 86.12
Gloom:
- damage: 191.23
- arcanatime: 1.32s
- damage/arcanatime: 144.87
MG/Smite/SL/Smite = 109.5 DPS
(737.31)/(6.732)
MG/Smite/Gloom/SL/Smite/Gloom = 119.48 DPS
(1119.77)/(9.372)
And because it's very important, this needs to be reiterated.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
If you want to optimize SL, then the only way to slot it is with 3 Golgi Exposure and 3 Nucleolus Exposure. That will make your Damage, Accuracy, Heal, and End Discount 94.93%
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Changing the pure damage in gloom, to the damage/rech allows me to hit that MG/smite/gloom/SL/smite/Gloom chain (3.222 rech in gloom)
Now, if we could just get a good attack chain using B_C's original build...
B_C, the problem that you are seeing is because of one very critical thing: you don't care to hear about the answer to the question you asked.
Let me explain. Here is your question:
Is my damage suffering by not using Siphon Life.
The answer:
Yes, Siphon Life should be slotted as an attack, and by doing so, will greatly improve your damage.
Your question was NOT:
If I keep Siphon Life slotted as a heal, am I losing out on damage by not using it in my attack chain.
If it had been, this would have been the answer:
No, if you're slotting it as a heal, then you'd not be doing as much damage with it as you would with other powers. HOWEVER, that is really a stupid idea, since it's one of your best attacks, that has a side effect of being a heal. If you slot it correctly, you can use it as both, and that is what you're looking for. Slot it with HOs or a combination of IOs that allow you to hit 96% Damage, 96% Heal, some accuracy and recharge. If you do THAT, then you can get both facets out of it in great amounts.
THAT IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN TELLING YOU TO DO. But you keep ignoring it. You can do what you want to do, and STILL have better results in the damage department by slotting it for a combination of damage and healing. And THAT will increase your damage output.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Didn't you know its a "Stubborn rich kid with fingers in ears" concept/thematic character he's working on? |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
THAT IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN TELLING YOU TO DO. But you keep ignoring it.
|
http://www.scene-and-heard.com/cov/covsig.jpg
Hey, will you guys take a look at my brute build?
A number of you guys seem to have a lot more knowledge than me. Additionally, I am willing to listen and learn. The theme of the brute is a toon to stealth SFs for speed, particularly low level SFs--Tarikoss, Silver Mantis, Renault, Mistral--and some lvl 24 Ouro arcs that I like. At the same time, it should be able to function in lvl 50 content even if it's not entirely optimized for lvl 50 content.
Also I like to run raging with all my toggles on.
What I need help with is an attack chain and possibly any tweaks to yield more (in this order) burst damage, dps, recharge, general survivability.
The current build, not the one I am posting, has plenty of survivability, less than the build I am posting, but if I had more killing power I could finish mishes sooner. And since we do speed runs, time is of the essence.
The build is an example of the budget I am willing to use. I actually have all of these enhancements in storage.
I will edit this post with a link to my thread right after breakfast.
afk brb
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=244810
tia
Quote:
With gloom, the highest single-target dps attack chain is gloom/smite/midnight grasp/smite. The attack chain does not have siphon life. However, such attack chain requires a very high recharge such that midnight grasp can be recharged at the end of the cycle. If your global recharge can be 200%, you still need to slot midnight grasp with recharge reduction to hit ED.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
There is a hypothetical perfect Dark Melee attack chain. It is like Smite/Siphon Life/Smite/Midnight Grasp or something.
I do not use this attack chain. I leave out Siphon life, and add in Gloom and Dark Obliteration (for groups), and Shadow Maul (for groups). the question is, does anyone know, on a high recharge build, 117-200% recharge, whether the extra damage available from Midnight Grasp and Gloom coming up often mitigates the removal of Siphon Life. This is the entire question posed by this post. Any help in getting an answer there is much appreciated. |
Practically, single-target attack chain is only relevant when you're fighting AVs or tough bosses. In teams, you'll most likely interlace your single-target attacks with AoEs whenever your AoEs are up.
Here is my original post in this chain:
Okay. I have a DM/Invul that uses a ton of recharge. I am not using the classic DM attack chain. I rely heavily on Gloom and Dark obliteration from Soul Mastery. They are both purpled, and both up a lot. (ranged doesnt hurt either) I also use Smite as a finishing/placeholder attack (again purpled), Shadow Maul if it looks like I can get 2 or more (also purp'd), and of course Midnight Grasp, (purpd, although with rooting grasp, so not optimally enhanced)
I only use Siphon Life when down hit points-maybe once every 30 seconds in medium fighting, or every 15 in heavy mobs. Started as an early habit because at low levels the sucker eats end. Currently my recharge is around 117%, will respec into Hasten after i19 and get more recharge.
I have gotten quite the earful about how not using Siphon life is ruining my attack chain. I am throwing out tons of damage as is (especially since Soul Drain is tantalizingly close to perma)
Any opinions from fellow Brutes on attack chains here?
I have further went on to say that i know that not slotting Siphon life and using it for damage is hurting my attack chain. I actually run this character. i run it through tough high level content.
I have further asked for assistance (really a very specific clarification) in that i would love to see the numbers for the classic Dark Melee Attack Chain, using only SOs versus an attack chain created with no Siphon life, but throwing in Soul Mastery Gloom, also SO'd. Figure 120% global recharge for both attack chains.
Also, I cannot say enough that I run this character at high level content, in flashbacks, doing strike forces. Iplay the character a specific way, using Dull Pain and Siphon Life in what appears to be a completely different manner than is regularly used in the cities. i wil say this, the way I use it has saved my bacon, when i need a ton of healing power, more than once.
Again, i realize I am not "maximizing" the damage potential of this character. The question I am asking here is, substituting in Gloom into the attack chain, how do the damage numbers over a period of time really change.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
With gloom, the highest single-target dps attack chain is gloom/smite/midnight grasp/smite. The attack chain does not have siphon life. However, such attack chain requires a very high recharge such that midnight grasp can be recharged at the end of the cycle. If your global recharge can be 200%, you still need to slot midnight grasp with recharge reduction to hit ED.
Practically, single-target attack chain is only relevant when you're fighting AVs or tough bosses. In teams, you'll most likely interlace your single-target attacks with AoEs whenever your AoEs are up. |
Thank you so much Twilight Snow. I will be respecing in 2 weeks, at which time my build will have 125% global recharge, plus Hasten, and Midnight Grasp is six slotted with Gravitational Anchor. Hopefuly that will bring it up fast enough. I will write down this attack chain to test.
You bring up a very good point about Single Target damage, in general I am hitting Dark Obliteration a lot, and might squeeze the cone attack from Soul Mastery onto the build as well for more AoE goodness. I do fight AVs and such, but really, the toon is a survivable mosh pit member on big teams in general, tanking when necessary.
Quote:
As was already pointed out, in order for that chain to work, you need gloom to recharge in 1.32 seconds. Which is just not possible. So that chain has to be thrown out, because its just not possible to go smite/gloom/smite which is what that chain ends up doing on the second rotation:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Thank you so much Twilight Snow. I will be respecing in 2 weeks, at which time my build will have 125% global recharge, plus Hasten, and Midnight Grasp is slix slotted with Gravitational Anchor. Hopefuly that will bring it up fast enough. I will write down this attack chain to test.
|
(gloom/smite/midnight grasp/smite)(Gloom/smite/midnight grasp/smite)
Look closely you have smite/gloom/smite which just isn't possible, when with your level of recharge.
I ask for assistance (really a very specific clarification) in that i would love to see the numbers for the classic Dark Melee Attack Chain, using only SOs versus an attack chain created with no Siphon life, but throwing in Soul Mastery Gloom, also SO'd. Figure 125% global recharge plus Hasten for both attack chains. Please plot out the attack chains long enough so that both recycle to the starting point and are usable again.
The goal here is not to see if the Classsic attack chain using Siphon life can be beat. It is purely to look at the difference in an observational setting.
Rarely will this attack chain be used, since that would mean that I was fighting an AV with nothing around it. that happens about 1% of the time in high level content. But again, we are examining.
Quote:
That's also evident in his treatment of SL vs DP. He's using DP as his regular heal and SL as a panic button. That ... so makes no sense to me.
|
Originally Posted by Sardan
One thing that reveals his lack of understanding is that he keeps saying things like "Siphon Life is no Knockout Blow." He's thinks big numbers rule. That's why he wants to slot Siphon Life for maximum healing. He doesn't understand that if you machine-gun moderate numbers they can add up to more than a slower cycle of a big number.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Using SOs, theres really no way you can hit 125 global recharge without hasten. Its not possible with SOs.. So, the only way to hit that level of recharge is with IOs. You factor in hasten, and your sitting on 195% global recharge, you assume ED capped recharge, and your at about 294% recharge, which is the baseline for VERY HIGH END IO builds.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I ask for assistance (really a very specific clarification) in that i would love to see the numbers for the classic Dark Melee Attack Chain, using only SOs versus an attack chain created with no Siphon life, but throwing in Soul Mastery Gloom, also SO'd. Figure 125% global recharge plus Hasten for both attack chains. Please plot out the attack chains long enough so that both recycle to the starting point and are usable again.
The goal here is not to see if the Classsic attack chain using Siphon life can be beat. It is purely to look at the difference in an observational setting. Rarely will this attack chain be used, since that would mean that I was fighting an AV with nothing around it. that happens about 1% of the time in high level content. But again, we are examining. |
the best brute attack chain goes as follows
MG->Smite->SL->Gloom->smite which the build i made you can do, seemlessly
this chain, using my build does about
240.43+157.5+181.88+193.11+157.5
=930.42 damage the chain takes 8.052 seconds to animate, so thats 115.55DPS
The only chain your build that sustainable, is MG-Smite-gloom-Shadow maul-smite which does
127.2+152.25+191.23+226.3+152.25
=848.23 damage, in the 9.24 seconds, so that's 91.91DPS
If you dropped shadow maul, and got shadow punch, and kept about the same slotting, you could higher DPS. but i can see the argument to keeping shadow maul. just for reference, here's the chain that would include SP
MG->Gloom->Smite->SP->Smite
127.2+191.23+152.25+74.26+152.25
=697.19 damage in 6.996 seconds, so that's 99.65DPS
This entire post, which seems to be in threat of being hijacked by a build discussion, is really, really straightforward. And i do want help on it.
There is a hypothetical perfect Dark Melee attack chain. It is like Smite/Siphon Life/Smite/Midnight Grasp or something.
I do not use this attack chain. I leave out Siphon life, and add in Gloom and Dark Obliteration (for groups), and Shadow Maul (for groups).
the question is, does anyone know, on a high recharge build, 117-200% recharge, whether the extra damage available from Midnight Grasp and Gloom coming up often mitigates the removal of Siphon Life. This is the entire question posed by this post. Any help in getting an answer there is much appreciated. Any efforts to explain why I build wrong, not so much.