How much would you sacrifice for your tanker?
By
abnormal_joe,
Posted on: 2010-10-31 12:41 in Tankers
i really wont sacrifice my tankers primary goal and thats to be powerfully tough.
as to damage wise.im a fire/fire tank as my main.it would be easy to sacrifice quite a bit and still be damaging.but i try to make sure both are untouched. this has lead to using every darn respec ive ever had to make that happen.
im totally obessed to making my fire tank both.
I usually have to give up offensive powers (which give me fun) to be a good tanker and pick them up if I have spare time.
Quote:
Really? In my opinion, the 'perfect' tanker would be indestructible. Inflicting damage is an afterthought. Give me ultimate defenses, plus Taunt and some kind of AoE damage or debuff to help me hold aggro and you can have the rest of my offensive abilities.
|
Originally Posted by Flints
Obviously the "Perfect" tanker would be a synergy of all 3 with no conflicts/restraints, every build has personal preferences, and every powerset has its weaknesses.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
If I need to sacrifice too much offense (i.e. a working attack chain or all AoE) for defense, I won't use the build / powerset combination. While the primary objective is to be as close to immortal as possible, it just isn't enjoyable for me if I can't deal good damage.
Both of my tanks (Ice/SS/Soul and SD/DM/Soul) have good damage, they're as indestructable as is needed and also provide good team utility (AoE -ToHit and -DMG, SD also provides +Def while Ice provides more -DMG and -Slow).
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
One of my tanks, an Ice Armor/Stone Melee, became a heck of a lot more effective after I backed off the idea of even having a smooth attack chain and just slowed down and stopped trying to scrap.
It all depends on the tank, but in all "reality", if I'm dead I do no damage. Defense before damage.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
None....
Thats why I also make Brutes..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I usually get in about 5 or 6 attacks on a tanky and still do content.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
? Any tank should be able to attack just fine (as in take most of their attacks and slot them well, not to mention use them) as well as tanking for their team. When you're on a team, managing aggro is priority one, but attacking is and can be a part of that. Tanks have a secondary and a primary: use both.
|
Originally Posted by Ang_Rui_Shen
One of my tanks, an Ice Armor/Stone Melee, became a heck of a lot more effective after I backed off the idea of even having a smooth attack chain and just slowed down and stopped trying to scrap.
|
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Sure, but give the most weight to the primary. Most of my tanks have all 9 powers from the primary and about 5 from the secondary.
|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Tanks have a secondary and a primary: use both.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
on average I would say 7 primary...not 9...
Quote:
That's way too generalist to make sense, as that really depends on the powersets you have (depending on the set and your goals with it, you might want more or less of either the primary or secondary). You really shouldn't have to skimp on your offense to have good defense as a tank: you might have to cut back on some offense in your APP, but not your secondary (or you can grab from both, whatever floats your boat). |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Sure, but give the most weight to the primary. Most of my tanks have all 9 powers from the primary and about 5 from the secondary.
|
My Fire/Fire tanks quite well, and he grabbed as much as he could from everything (while still being able to slot well). My WP/DB has every attack from his secondary and is ridiculously resilient. Same thing for my Invuln/Mace. Considering you can get nice recharge, +HP, or +defense bonuses from IO attack sets, there really is no need to underslot attacks, either.
I'm not saying Tankers should ignore their primary, I'm saying you have a secondary as well: you're not somehow being less of a tank because you focused on your offense some. Even before I19, we had enough power picks and slots to do so. After, it's going to be even easier.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
There's more than enough power choices to take enough offence that you can't use it all in an attack chain and still have all the defensive powers plus tough & weave, so I can't see anyone "sacrificing" durability for offence.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Sure, but give the most weight to the primary. Most of my tanks have all 9 powers from the primary and about 5 from the secondary.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
That's way too generalist to make sense, as that really depends on the powersets you have (depending on the set and your goals with it, you might want more or less of either the primary or secondary). You really shouldn't have to skimp on your offense to have good defense as a tank: you might have to cut back on some offense in your APP, but not your secondary (or you can grab from both, whatever floats your boat).
|
I do think your statement "You really shouldn't have to skimp on your offense to have good defense as a tank" is a reasonable and accurate one. My position, though, is that I can usually find another power in the power pools or epics that will make my defense BETTER.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
Definitely a YMMV thing, but on the whole I agree with Grey Pilgrim. The problem with saying "defense first!" is that:|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Well, this is a YMMV situation. I disagree. I think it makes perfect sense. Of course, my goals don't vary. If I make a tank, I have two goals. Personal survival and team survival. If I want to deal a lot of damage, I'll play a scrapper.
I do think your statement "You really shouldn't have to skimp on your offense to have good defense as a tank" is a reasonable and accurate one. My position, though, is that I can usually find another power in the power pools or epics that will make my defense BETTER. |
1) you can get to the point were the remaining options for increasing your defense are incremental at best, and likely to improve your survability only marginally.
2) attacks draw aggro and contribute damage to a team, both of which help you perform your function as a tank. There is certainly a point where you will be aiding your team more by having sufficient, well-slotted attacks than by incrementally increasing your defensive powers a tiny bit more.
Bottom line for me is that since you don't have to sacrifice offense to have sufficient (and more) defense to handle any content in the game, you are doing your team no favors by doing so.
P.S. FWIW, there are times when I take all 9 powers from my primary, and many times I don't. It depends completely on whether the I see enough benefit to give them 'build room' and whether they suit my playstyle. (I don't take rezzes for the second reason.) I think the smallest number of secondary attacks I've taken on a tank is five, but usually in that case I take a pool or ancillary attack as well. I don't think I've ever rolled a character (I play melee exclusively, pretty much) with fewer than 6 attacks.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
If anything gets sacrificed, its damage for def/resistance.
Brutes, scrappers, and blasters satisfy my thirst for damage. Tankers satisfy the need to laugh in the face of... anything...
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
I'm of the opinion that a mature tanker build shouldn't have to sacrifice much if anything. I always approach my tankers from a Primary/Secondary mindset... in other words my primary purpose is to protect the team; my secondary purpose is to contribute damage.
Coming from that direction I look first for powers/bonuses that allow me to get and hold aggro (this includes attacks by the way for punchvoke) and powers/bonuses that allow me to survive that aggro. With that general mindset I then prioritize the powers available to me choosing bang for the buck, powers that help the most are taken ASAP while powers that though beneficial aren't as helpful are taken later or possibly skipped altogether.
Because of this I build my tankers for maximum practical durability and aggro management followed by as much damage as I can realistically get. More often than not a mature tanker can maximize both durability and damage output.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I'm with CMA, a proper tank build should have very few sacrifices. With inherent stamina I really don't see a need for ANY.
My tanks, TANK. They also solo tips missions padded for whole teams, run AE missions at good speeds, complete story arcs including EBs unassisted, and if the mood strikes me solo large chunks of TF/SF content if I don't want to wait on the team.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Any of my tanks can put out some offense. Some obviously better than others ( looking at YOU Energy ). However all of them are built to withstand punishment as that is my primary focus.
I am the first one in
I am the last one out.
I am the line.
I am the tank.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
None because the design for tankers are all Defensive Stuff, They don't need offensive Stuff. Tanker is Suppose to take the Aggro, while the rest of the team Take out the mobs.
|
Originally Posted by Flints
specifically, how much defense would you give up for offense and vice versa? Or how much defense/offense would you give up for team support?
Obviously the "Perfect" tanker would be a synergy of all 3 with no conflicts/restraints, every build has personal preferences, and every powerset has its weaknesses. For example, my 2 Ice/ Tankers (One at 50 IO'd out one at 43 on his way to be IO'd.) they both have or will have at 50, a full power-tray of attacks (9 attacks and taunt) These builds/characters are aggressive, and aggressive to play, but I've paid an awful lot to get them to that point, and I might end up paying and giving up a whole lot more to take and achieve perma-hasten for perma-hoarfrost on both of them. But playing in Mids (both i18 and i19 versions depending which one I open at the time) I've noticed with my third planned Ice tanker (Ice/Dark) I've got a chance to do things like soft-cap to Psi and Fire/Cold with one medium purple, or soft-cap to Fire/Cold/AoE with one minor purple, as well as being able to completely drain targets of endurance, The trouble is, there only maybe 4 fast recharging attacks in /DA, which are chainable but it doesn't add much for flexibility or enjoyment. So the choice is between going for the standard S/L/N/E build, taking a 4-power attack chain with some long-recharge "bag of tricks" powers and possibly ending up perma-hasten due to the recharge issue, this would effectively be the "classic" way of building it, with generic weaknesses to such things as psi and fire damage, or do I go for something that has incredible survivability and moderate aggro gaining at the cost damage and finally the choice of going like my other 2 Ice/ tankers and maxing the offensive? I would post the 3 builds but they're still in the tweaking/concept stages at the moment. |
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
Quote:
flames in 3.. 2...
|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
None because the design for tankers are all Defensive Stuff, They don't need offensive Stuff. Tanker is Suppose to take the Aggro, while the rest of the team Take out the mobs.
|
Quote:
I don't 100% agree with this. While my own personal view and build style is build up my defences first not thinking about offensive stuff isn't the way to go. I say this because:|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
None because the design for tankers are all Defensive Stuff, They don't need offensive Stuff. Tanker is Suppose to take the Aggro, while the rest of the team Take out the mobs.
|
1) Inherents - the splash taunt created by Gauntlet by actually attacking can actually help you manage agro for a team. And now their is Bruising which is a decent 20% resistance debuff for your Tier 1 attack which helps with the damage output of the Tank and anyone else attacking that target.
2) Tanker Role - my definition of a Tanker role is more than just take the Aggro, its to protect the team. And a defeated enemy is an enemy is an enemy that won't be bothering a squishy AT!
3) "Sometimes a good defence is having a good offence" - Not all Tanks are created equal and not everyone does IO builds so need something extra to survive. Also a Tanker is not just a Primary set (I hate threads that try to analyse an AT but just by their Primary), it has a Secondary offensive set which can also provide tools for survival. Whether this be through slows (Ice), to hit debuffs (Dark) or just pure damage (Fire) these all add to a Tankers, and a teams, survival.
So while I agree to build Defence before Offence ignoring Offence is the wrong way to go and is ignoring half the potential of the tank and is just as bad as "Pure Healer" defenders!
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Quote:
|
Quote:
Truth. And a nice analogy.|
Originally Posted by Tired Angel
So while I agree to build Defence before Offence ignoring Offence is the wrong way to go and is ignoring half the potential of the tank and is just as bad as "Pure Healer" defenders!
|
To qualify my earlier post: I slot and work to maximize what I choose as attacks. I just won't sacrifice my tank's primary in order to do so.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
None because the design for tankers are all Defensive Stuff, They don't need offensive Stuff. Tanker is Suppose to take the Aggro, while the rest of the team Take out the mobs.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tired Angel
I don't 100% agree with this. While my own personal view and build style is build up my defences first not thinking about offensive stuff isn't the way to go.
|
If tankers aren't designed to do offense, why do they have a whole secondary that does just that? For show? Because the devs couldn't think of anything else to give them?
If that weren't absurd on the face of it, there's the fact that the tanker inherent, Gauntlet, is a way for tanks to tanks manage aggro by using, tah-dah, their ATTACKS. A tank ignoring their offense is one that is choosing not to use one of the primary tools they've been given to do their job.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
specifically, how much defense would you give up for offense and vice versa? Or how much defense/offense would you give up for team support?
Obviously the "Perfect" tanker would be a synergy of all 3 with no conflicts/restraints, every build has personal preferences, and every powerset has its weaknesses.
For example, my 2 Ice/ Tankers (One at 50 IO'd out one at 43 on his way to be IO'd.) they both have or will have at 50, a full power-tray of attacks (9 attacks and taunt) These builds/characters are aggressive, and aggressive to play, but I've paid an awful lot to get them to that point, and I might end up paying and giving up a whole lot more to take and achieve perma-hasten for perma-hoarfrost on both of them.
But playing in Mids (both i18 and i19 versions depending which one I open at the time) I've noticed with my third planned Ice tanker (Ice/Dark) I've got a chance to do things like soft-cap to Psi and Fire/Cold with one medium purple, or soft-cap to Fire/Cold/AoE with one minor purple, as well as being able to completely drain targets of endurance,
The trouble is, there only maybe 4 fast recharging attacks in /DA, which are chainable but it doesn't add much for flexibility or enjoyment.
So the choice is between going for the standard S/L/N/E build, taking a 4-power attack chain with some long-recharge "bag of tricks" powers and possibly ending up perma-hasten due to the recharge issue, this would effectively be the "classic" way of building it, with generic weaknesses to such things as psi and fire damage, or do I go for something that has incredible survivability and moderate aggro gaining at the cost damage and finally the choice of going like my other 2 Ice/ tankers and maxing the offensive?
I would post the 3 builds but they're still in the tweaking/concept stages at the moment.