First q: Yes, you need to go all the way to villain to be allowed to do the patron arc which gives you access to the patron pools. This isn't due to some nefarious villan vs hero bias (although that would be hilarious given how often people complained about devs hating villains), but simply due to the fact that the patron pools, story-wise, are tied into something which only makes sense for a villain to do.
Second q: Yes, if you go full villain and get access to patron pools, you will still have access to it even if you switch back to hero.
Third q: Yes, you *will* lose your hero merits if you change alignment to vigilante or villain, so spend em all first!
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Thanks for the reply and confirmation!
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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If you don't spend them and switch quick enough, you could go with Cold Mastery. The effects can pretty easily be counter to your current theme, but I prefer the other powers in that set to Mace Mastery. Of course you'd have to wait till 44 instead of 41 for your shield if you went that way.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Thanks for the reply and confirmation!
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@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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I just want to repeat this because it is VERY IMPORTANT and some drive-by reader might see it.
| you *will* lose your hero merits if you change alignment to vigilante or villain, so spend em all first! |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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So all my 50s are scrappers, and my blaster just hit 41 so I'm a blaster noob. Anyway I was led to believe that the Cold Mastery shield (like an ice tank) encases you in ice as a constant graphic and the scorpion shield doesn't.
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Originally Posted by Gilia
If you don't spend them and switch quick enough, you could go with Cold Mastery. The effects can pretty easily be counter to your current theme, but I prefer the other powers in that set to Mace Mastery. Of course you'd have to wait till 44 instead of 41 for your shield if you went that way.
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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The Scorpion Shield at the very least has a glowing sigil that appears on your character every few seconds, and I believe it also gives you a slight glowing aura not unlike those you see in the Invulnerability powerset.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
So all my 50s are scrappers, and my blaster just hit 41 so I'm a blaster noob. Anyway I was led to believe that the Cold Mastery shield (like an ice tank) encases you in ice as a constant graphic and the scorpion shield doesn't.
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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Yeah, the ice shield encases you in ice. The scorpion shield still has a graphical glow, but it's much less ridiculous looking than the ice one. A pity, because the powers in ice mastery really are quite decent.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Arghhh...
I... can't... spend... my... hero... merits... for a minimum of a week. And I can't start the stupid process of going villain to get this power.
/bangs head against wall
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
If you want to take a vacation to Grandville to earn your Scorpion Shield, you can at least take some steps that way while waiting to burn through your Hero Merit stock. While they WILL all go poof if you complete the alignment change mission to go Vigilante, you can still run the 10 tips to unlock the vigilante alignment mission. Just don't tip over until you clear your stock out.
Edit: unless the reason you can't spend em for another week is because you've been saving them up to direct-buy a purple or PvP IO, and you need to get more before you can cash them out. In that case... yeah, you can take Ice Mastery as a filler if you really want a S/L defense shield, and then use the free respec they hand you upon completion of your patron arc to pick up the Scorpion Shield instead.
Rule number six of an empathy defender is NEVER underestimate a blaster's ability to die. I don't care if he has CM, Fort, both RAs, bubbles (both FF and Sonic), and is fighting next to a Storm defender with hurricane on. If there is a way to die in that situation, the blaster will find it.
Well I see two very things that make Mace Mastery win over Cold Mastery:
1) The shield is a T1 power as opposed to Ice Armor being a T2 power. So if you only want the shield from epics you won't have to take any filler powers. And of course, as mentioned, Ice shield is just ugly. Mace shield is just some glow effect.
2) The AoE immob in Mace Mastery is just...yummy for some blasters. Especially Fire and /Fire ones. It makes powers like Rain of Fire, Burn, and Hotfeet more effective since enemies can't run away then. Of course it's also quite helpful for AoE damage auras in general.
@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
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I was saving up for a PvP IO, but after a month and a half I had 14 and I need 35? I'm all for rare drops but seriously?|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Kumquat
Edit: unless the reason you can't spend em for another week is because you've been saving them up to direct-buy a purple or PvP IO, and you need to get more before you can cash them out. In that case... yeah, you can take Ice Mastery as a filler if you really want a S/L defense shield, and then use the free respec they hand you upon completion of your patron arc to pick up the Scorpion Shield instead.
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Anyway, the problem is I'm willing to spend, but for some reason they gate the spending. Why? I am already gated at the earning. It makes no sense to me, and in this case it is very frustrating. Arbitrary restrictions are arbitrary.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Just a nit to pick, burn doesn't provoke running any more.
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Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
2) The AoE immob in Mace Mastery is just...yummy for some blasters. Especially Fire and /Fire ones. It makes powers like Rain of Fire, Burn, and Hotfeet more effective since enemies can't run away then. Of course it's also quite helpful for AoE damage auras in general.
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I wondered why the spending was gated too -- but unfortunately I think you've discovered the answer: Spending is gated to help deter people from switching alignments regularly.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I was saving up for a PvP IO, but after a month and a half I had 14 and I need 35? I'm all for rare drops but seriously?
Anyway, the problem is I'm willing to spend, but for some reason they gate the spending. Why? I am already gated at the earning. It makes no sense to me, and in this case it is very frustrating. Arbitrary restrictions are arbitrary. |
That said, if I'm right about the devs' intentions here, then it really is crappy that Villain Epics require an alignment shift, but Hero Epics don't.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Also possibly gated to prevent gigantic market manipulation of extremely high cost recipes.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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Hero epics don't require you to run through a story-arc just to unlock it though, and if your intent was to get villain epics from the get go, you should have side-switched immediately or easier still just go from prae to vills for new characters.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
That said, if I'm right about the devs' intentions here, then it really is crappy that Villain Epics require an alignment shift, but Hero Epics don't.
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A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread
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How? By people hoarding absurd amounts of Hero/Villain Merits and then spending them all in one go and flooding the market? That doesn't seem like a credible danger, even if you do subscribe to the notion that massive (and ultimately profitable) market manipulation is even possible. It just takes too long to earn H/V merits. If someone really wanted to go to the extraordinary effort you're describing, they can use alts to do it even now.|
Originally Posted by galadiman
Also possibly gated to prevent gigantic market manipulation of extremely high cost recipes.
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But if you're right, then why not limit regular merit spending?
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Originally Posted by Tangler
Hero epics don't require you to run through a story-arc just to unlock it though, and if your intent was to get villain epics from the get go, you should have side-switched immediately or easier still just go from prae to vills for new characters.
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As to the rest, what if I have a whole stable of characters who were level 50 long before Going Rogue was even a glimmer in the devs' eye? What if I now want to respec a large number of them because of a huge, imminent change to every single one of their builds -- like, say, Inherent Fitness?
Saying, "You should have done X," potentially several years after the fact just doesn't strike me as a compelling argument. Anyone Villain-side has immediate access to Hero Epics, whereas anyone Hero-side has several rather large obstacles blocking access to Villain Epics. The subject of this thread may be the largest of those.
The introduction of side switching and Praetoria only makes the disparity look sillier. Now more than ever, alignment is an arbitrary distinction.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Yeah I looked into that for a while but PvP recipes don't seem to be in line with game, I hear alot of people say these are rare and the values for them should equate that?????. Sorry but they are orange recipes not purple not platinum not made of Gold. |
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I was saving up for a PvP IO, but after a month and a half I had 14 and I need 35? I'm all for rare drops but seriously?
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If Orange PvP recipes are 35 merits why arn't pve orange recipes the same price they are suppose to be the same rarity, so the line that these pvp recipes are rare just dosen't cut it for me.
What people price these pvp recipes on WW/BM are entirely up to them but with the new merit system in action now it seems the devs seem to condone the over-pricing thats going on.
They need to change the colour of them really to show there rarity is higher then say a LOTG 7.5
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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Perhaps for you and your gameplay style, certainly not for everybody.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
The story arc is a thematic issue -- and theme must almost always yield to gameplay considerations.
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Switching sides is neither hard nor time-consuming, even with the limits they've imposed (such as they are). I recently took a Praetorian mastermind blueside, and when she's high enough level I will be briefly swapping to red for access to scorpion shield and that alone. Once done I will likely go right back to blue-side with a smile on my face.
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My gameplay style is irrelevant. In fact, when I'm choosing builds, I almost always go for style over mechanical effectiveness. The desire to choose a given Epic pool is, in fact, largely influenced by thematic concerns.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Impact
Perhaps for you and your gameplay style, certainly not for everybody.
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I'm talking about game-design principles. A fun game with a shallow story generally sells better than an un-fun game with a good story. When possible, sure, game designers will mold the mechanics to fit the theme, but there are any number of thematic compromises that aren't given a second thought. In this case, we're talking about one set of pools that are tied to certain story arcs, and another, analogous set of pools that aren't. Theme alone isn't justification enough to explain such a wild mechanical inconsistency.
You wanna argue that Hero-side APPs should be tied to story arcs? I'd be fine with that.
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| Switching sides is neither hard nor time-consuming, even with the limits they've imposed (such as they are). I recently took a Praetorian mastermind blueside, and when she's high enough level I will be briefly swapping to red for access to scorpion shield and that alone. Once done I will likely go right back to blue-side with a smile on my face. |
So our four day figure can become much, much, longer, and that's before we even get around to doing the Patron story arc in question and switching back (if that's your desire).
It just seems like an unnecessarily convoluted process, an arbitrary penalty for wanting to use Villain pools instead of Hero pools -- which are mechanically analogous.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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They are that valuable because, like purples, you will never lose the set bonuses, no matter how low you exemp. |
Originally Posted by Slazenger
Yeah I looked into that for a while but PvP recipes don't seem to be in line with game, I hear alot of people say these are rare and the values for them should equate that?????. Sorry but they are orange recipes not purple not platinum not made of Gold.
If Orange PvP recipes are 35 merits why arn't pve orange recipes the same price they are suppose to be the same rarity, so the line that these pvp recipes are rare just dosen't cut it for me. What people price these pvp recipes on WW/BM are entirely up to them but with the new merit system in action now it seems the devs seem to condone the over-pricing thats going on. They need to change the colour of them really to show there rarity is higher then say a LOTG 7.5 |
If you managed to kit out your entire character with nothing but PvP IOs and purples, you could exemp to level ONE and have the exact same set bonuses as at level 50.
People begged for an alternate means to get them, because they didn't like the fact that the only way to get them before was to PvP (which is how the devs seem to WANT us to get them). The devs said a while back that if purples and PvP IOs ever became available at a vendor it would be at extremely high prices.
As far as the rarity goes.....I PvPed for 3 days straight, and didn't get a single recipe drop. Not a one. I did the same thing PvE and I was swimming in recipe drops, at least a dozen of which were oranges.
So yeah, they ARE that rare, go spend some time PvPing and tell me if you still think they aren't.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Well if they are that rare then like I said they need to have there colour changed on them to represent that, cos orange to me dosen't mean they are as rare as purples and I have had alot more purple drops then I have PvP.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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My intent was to play the game in a fun manner. Once I hit my 40s I start playing in Mid's looking at end game builds. The fact that the only defense oriented epic power that has a subtle graphic is only available villain side is what I would call a design problem with the game. My options are break character and go villain for a stint, or break character and spend the rest of my career encased in a block of ice, or choose a much less powerful build. Probably a bad call for the system to have been designed to back a player into that decision.|
Originally Posted by Tangler
Hero epics don't require you to run through a story-arc just to unlock it though, and if your intent was to get villain epics from the get go, you should have side-switched immediately or easier still just go from prae to vills for new characters.
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The least pain to me personally is a stint into villain-dom to pick up that one power and explain it away story-wise in some fashion; symbiotic alien caused me to go evil, bad moral choice caused a fall from grace and redemption, etc.
PS: Yes most of my future blasters will sadly level as villains even and then switch once I have the epics even though I enjoy hero-side more because of this inefficiency in the design.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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The problem with this sentiment is almost all the powers in the game could "break character." That is, if you wanted the powers effects but had built your theme around a different powerset, effect, damage type, and so on. The only self-rez available to Blasters does fire damage, for example.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
My options are break character and go villain for a stint, or break character and spend the rest of my career encased in a block of ice, or choose a much less powerful build. Probably a bad call for the system to have been designed to back a player into that decision.
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| The least pain to me personally is a stint into villain-dom to pick up that one power and explain it away story-wise in some fashion; symbiotic alien caused me to go evil, bad moral choice caused a fall from grace and redemption, etc. |
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| PS: Yes most of my future blasters will sadly level as villains even and then switch once I have the epics even though I enjoy hero-side more because of this inefficiency in the design. |
Now, hopefully down the road something will be implemented to alleviate this issue.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Sorry to necro-post but I wanted to comment on something said in the post above me.
The Villain Tips have a few missions where you outright _kill_ an NPC. In one, you even cause someone's grandmother to have a heart attack and die as you attempted to "fool" a relative into doing your bidding. I'm trying not to give spoilers here so pardon my vagueness.
My point is I took a full hero to redside and back just for a PPP. I tried to work the rationale into my character bio as a brief stint with a cursed relic. But the Villain missions are definitely dark and evil. It makes it hard to play off as a ruse when you commit murder or manslaughter.
Let's say I have like 14 Hero merits gained slowly as I level, and I decided that Scorpion Shield is just too good to pass up.
First, I really have to go all rogue just to get this power, where as the villains get the hero APPs automatically?
Second, if I do this, do the quest line for the Villain pools, and go Hero again will I have that pool even if I respec as a Hero?
Third, will I lose all my Hero Merits I already earned?
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563