Are bases content? A theoretical excercise.

The wall you're going to hit with trying to put more content in the base itself is that bases, with all their decorations, are very taxing on the average computer, and that's just when you're in there by yourself. You add a team of people all firing off powers in the same room that already has torches burning and other f/x heavy things going, and you're right back to what made the old base raid system totally unfun for a lot of people.

Until they totally revamp the entire system, I'm not sure what you can add. If it were up to me, I'd put in a reason why SG "A" even wants to invade someone's base, but then that goes to why the original CoP trial wasn't well received. People didn't like the idea of putting in work to obtain something only to have it so easily taken by someone else. If there isn't anything else but PvP in a base, or using the mission computer to instance to other content, what are we really adding that has any value?

Yeah, Reference?

Most recent discussion with War Witch was that they were NOT going to be doing a engine re-vamp.





-np

After a quick re-read of the War Witch Q&A, you are in fact correct.

Disregard that statement. Complete misinformation on my part. I think I got crossed in hindsight/looking over the base comittee thread.

Now, to get back on topic. Rolling over the basic questions addressed, and keeping in mind the apperant community dislike for a purely raid focused system, I'm going to start laying out some alternative and simpler systems here.

System 1: SG tips.

The Sg tips system mirrors the standard tip system with a few SG specific differences.

When playing in SG mode, normal tip drops for a given character are replaced with SG tips. The difference is that unlike a normal tip, which when used becomes a temporary contact, an SG tip is intended to be analyzed utilizing base facilities. Yes, this prevents you from getting normal tips in SG mode, however given the drop rate for tips, which is pretty darn high, and the limit of 5 tips missions every 24 hours, I don't see this as a problem.

Standard tip - You find a piece of smooth metal... blah... you poke around with your contacts... Mission/choice.

SG Tip - You find a piece of smooth metal.

Now how do these tips ramp? With the standard tip system, you've got a bar for the moralities avaliable to you. Completing mission choices of a given morality adds to the bar. Fill the bar, you get a morality mission, right?

SG tips are a bit different. We'll begin by making the assumption that an SG tip mission is a mission that is intended for at least half a group of players, if not a full group. Thus, you've got more people getting the tips. The tips themselves are simply bits of evidence, data, rumors, etc. that alone are a smaller piece of a larger puzzle. However, when assembled, you have the whole picture.

In a game play system, this is accomplished by a bar visible at the mission computer. When an SG member finds an SG tip, they'll take it over to the proper facility to "analyze" it. This effectively eats the tip, and adds a point to the bar. Once enough tips have been analyzed, the SG now has all the requisite data to begin a mission!

SG tips, when examined will have a bit of flavor text, describing what the tip is, as well as suggestive text specifying what sort of analysis should be performed on the tip.

Example Tip Types:

*Physical object (Strange Material, Interesting fingerprint) - Analyzed by base facility (Specialized Analysis device e.g. Fingerprint database)
*Rumor (You heard NPC X say Y)- Analyzed by a contact (Phone call, face to face meeting, Mission computer.)
*Cipher (unknown writing/data) - Analyzed by a base facility (Computer, Specialized control aux item.)

*Other - Some tip types may have multiple analysis types!

So, we've got SG members finding all these interesting things, and calling in their personal contacts (some SG members may have different contacts! Cooperate!) and using base facilities (These cost prestige! Cooperate to get them!) to analyze them. Once we've filled that bar, we get a mission!

SG Missions:

SG missions are a bit different than normal content, and require some interesting teamwork to achieve. Whereas a standard mission is designed under the assumption that the entire team remains within arms reach at all times, plows through mobs, clicks glowies, etc. an SG mission is purposely designed to split the team in to two or more differing complementary objectives. While the base mission goals are still stated for all to see, what is different is the way the players are expected to approach the mission. Think of these and little pocket sized TF finales. They comprise a single mission, but it's a big tough mission that's going to require coordination as much as it requires a mass of well built characters.

Heroic Example - Help Dr. Awesome close a Rularuu portal! Part of the team needs to be with the good doctor fighting the minions of Rularuu at the portal, for if the good doctor falls, then the mission fails. The other part of the team needs to be on the other side of the portal, fighting their way through to set up the negative displacement pylon to complete the process.

Villainous example - Take over WSPDR and make your demands! Part of the team needs to be outside the building fighting off the RIP on the ground floor, if the RIP make it inside, they'll cut the power and your plans are foiled. The other part of the team needs to make their way inside, capture a technician, and force him to set up for the broadcast.

These are simple, but you're getting the general idea here.

The other place where SG missions differ from normal missions is the reward. SG missions pay in pure prestige, however if failed they can not be re-attempted without collecting the proper tips again. Successfully completing one will give you not only a shiny SG accomplishment badge, but perhaps new decorations, raid defenses, or schematics to go with it!

In this manner, it's a short order to set up *progressive* SG tip content. If completion of one SG mission is required to access the equipment required to analyze the tips for the next mission, then the SG can only climb the ladder by successfully completing the mission.

This addresses only a fraction of what is possible with base content, but its a start. I'll make a later post about configurable facilities when I've finished simplifying the system.

/unsigned

I am against any kind of "either/or" "all or nothing" system that requires players to stop supporting their SG to gain access to individual content such as the morality arcs. Back when we had Base Salvage, it dropped in addition to regular rewards when in SG mode, so as to not penalize people for supporting their SG. The devs changed SG mode's inf penalty to be no more than 50%, when it used to be 100% at higher levels.

Also.... making it so SG mishes are geared for larger groups (like CoP is set up for) is going to exclude small groups or new ones, even if they have all the equipment in place. Having a few of those is fine, but making it so that's all that you're getting out of base mission options is not a good idea.

I'm not going to support that. Give smaller groups a reason to get excited about this system as well.

The idea is to encourage base use. Set it up like TFs if you want to, where it requires 4-8 players to start instead of any one firing it up solo, but no more of this idea that it has to have multiple teams of players to be something SG-oriented as the only option please. SG missions don't have to be something that mobilizing the entire SG is required to complete. Add in more of those if you want, but only once other content is introduced that smaller groups could attempt.

Paying purely in Prestige.... again, I'm not going to support that. None of this all or nothing stuff that already went out the window years ago, please.

If it isn't a system that can at least be accessed on some level by all actual SGs (no, I'm not counting solo SGs) that have put in the work to have the facilities, then the system is flawed, and not worth the time spent in development IMO.

Without reading much of the discussion here I want to point out to the title...

Are bases content? A theoretical excercise.

Content, in my opinion, is things to do within the game that can keep you busy for hours. Stuff to do that makes you keep your account/sub active.

For all basebuilders this is the case here. I spend more time in the base editor then I have done in taskforces. So to me bases ARE content!

Bases would be content with the addition of a coordinate incrementation tool for objects and a ton of low hanging fruit.

okokok I will try really hard to behave

I'm trying to come up with something supportive

David Bowie is making this tough.

Now I'm stupid in the street and I can't socialize.

I believe the only way bases will get base upgrades from the devs will be centered around the dynamic between players and supergroups. Meaning as more and more players start their own 1-man sg's to make an 18 storage rack storage facility for themselves then the importance of sg's diminishes and therefor there is no real reason to give sg bases any real attention. On the other hand if sg's became more important and useful to players well than there is a reason for the devs to spend time on them. So, in hopes of getting base upgrades/fixes, I believe the focus needs to be on getting players interested in sg's.

Someone mentioned that maybe sg's could get tips from the supergroup computer, which is a great idea. Since the sg computer was already designed to do missions, it is possibly one of the easiest ways the devs could throw us a bone. The only real issue here is that it is still no real incentive for players to be in sg's.

Someone also mentioned sg's buffs, which isn't a bad idea either since when bases were first implemented that was part of the intended lure of larger sg's. It took alot to get the Item of Power and alot to keep it. But, if you had an item of power sitting in the base everyone in the sg got the buff from it. Unfortunately the item of power just never got from the intention to the game. But I liked the idea of sg buffs.

As a member of a medium-sized sg in the top 50 on Protector I can tell you that sg members do want things to do together. So, I was thinking that maybe there could be a system where the supergroup computer would let sg members access the pre-existing task forces. Maybe over time a sg could "earn" buffs or rewards for playing together. Unlike the real Synapse task force, for example, which requires any 4 players over lvl 15, the sg counterpart would only allow 4 or more lvl 15+ supergroup members on the team. That way the supergroup could earn "sg points" or "sg merits" for doing these computer task forces. Maybe your sg completes the first 6 hero task forces and the sg gets a sg reward? Or maybe you would theoretically earn sg reward points for completing sg computer tasks that will eventually be cashed in for sg buff's, temp powers, badges, or whatever. Or maybe it is more than task forces but random radio missions for sg members as well.

The intention is not to punish smaller sg's but to reward players for being in larger ones. Allowing players to keep 1-man storage facilities is fine but players need to see real benefits to being in a larger group then things will change. It will attract players to larger groups again.

In addition, larger sg's currently suffer in the available storage ratio to number of sg members. The limit of base storage should be addressed, that's an easy fix. Storage racks that only store 30 items? The maximum number of storage racks should change but more than anything change the capacity for salvage storage to 100.

Also, why not discount IO crafting a few percentage points for crafting in your own sg base? And why is there no tailor, arena terminal or auction house terminal for sg bases?

I believe that all these should be easy to implement and each would contribute in their own way to encourage people to being in larger sg's. Maybe we can see smaller sg's merging or 1-man sg's joining active ones. If larger sg's become important to players again, I believe the devs would seriously spend time on base issues and making them better than they have ever been..

I never understood why the devs have pursued, over the last couple of years, what amounts to an "sg unfriendly" agenda. Don't believe me? All I can say is (1) The only exclusive sg/vg TF activities we had are gone. Silver Mantis stands in Shark and the CoP originates in a base but the SG buff is gone as is the requirement for SG membership participation. (2) Base prices dropped drastically. Before the flames start, I'm not saying lower prices were a bad thing... just that it made it a lot easier to go solo. (3) Base storage restrictions for large SGs are ridiculous... just about forcing non SG alternatives (4) Provisions for a true shared SG leadership have disappeared (not a big deal for some... but it is for others). (5) The plug stays pulled on base raids. (6) The removal of pathing (again, I'm not saying that was a bad thing per se) shifts the emphasis of bases to individual artistic expression. (7) Side switching is implemented with SG status reverting to "limbo" (and vigilantes and rogues restricted in base access and travel). [edit add: (8) No SGs in Praetoria].

Am I saying that the devs have been on an overt "anti-sg" campaign? Nah. What I am saying is, through their actions alone, it's evident that there is no advocacy in the dev community to promote/protect/defend SG activity in this game.

I had a standing ovation moment after reading Bad_Dog's post above (it had me hooked at the first line and just got better).

But... success will require a completely different mindset. One where that segment of the player community that cares about SGs speaks up... and the devs pay heed.

Now, the Sg tip system was thought up just to address SG content. However it doesn't address the important question of drawing people to SGs in the first place.

Its always been my thinking that SG buffs are a bit of an unfair thing. City is a game that uses heavy instancing and auto adjustments to make sure that it can support soloists as well as it supports groups. However, with any sort of SG buff you've got a system that's essentially penalizing people that choose not to be in an SG. Its something you simply can't get without being in one that has a direct effect on the power level of individual characters. However, individual benefits that don't directly increase an individual character's power level would be a great place to start thinking about this problem.

With the current systems, SGs and bases are geared toward convenience. A non-SG player can still craft IOs, use salvage, and do all of the content in the game at the same power level as a person who's in one.

Thus, I think the best idea in terms of reward structures is rewards that benefit the SG directly, but only benefit the individual character indirectly. It should be about wanting to join a larger SG. It should be about wanting to join an SG at all. A group, large enough or small enough to suit the individual, but a group nonetheless. While a 50 person SG may suit one group, I've been playing MMOs for years and I'm usually in stable small groups of between 6-15 people.

A big part of the current problem is is storage. Now, storage is set up the way it is to prevent hoarding. The thinking here is that if base racks could hold too much, then nobody would ever market the salvage. The consequence of this decision is that with nothing else in the way of content to really draw people to joining and remaining in an SG, people would rather do those one man bases simply so they *can* hoard more salvage for personal use.

So, without getting off topic, lets address storage in the vein of an SG focused reward.

Imagine you're getting SG badge or prestige rewards for SG tip missions, or as an alternate reward choice from doing TFs from the mission computer. Now, we know every person has a personal vault. We also know that salvage racks hold exactly as much as a personal vault. Now, imagine you could place an upgraded base vault, but only as an SG option. So for doing SG focused content in addition to upgraded base defenses and devices for analyzing SG tips you can also purchase extended vaults. Every member of the SG with an extended vault has expanded personal storage.

This means you're no longer in a position where you could hoard more storage by quitting your SG. You're actually in a position where by being active in your SG everyone benefits. Not just the base builder, and not just the people with rack permissions, but everyone. That removes the only *good* reason to feel like you're actually better off without an SG.

This is the best of both worlds. You still have racks for community storage, but there is a tangible personal benefit to helping out the group. It doesn't outbalance any personal power levels because unlike a buff, you can't get anything with that extra salvage you couldn't get otherwise. You could use a similar system to allow for prestige purchase of IO databanks. These would be crafted control aux items that when installed add a panel to every SG member's memorized list called "Databank" From there, they can use the recipies as if they had personally memorized them. Bonus cool feature - If the databank recipies used the SG logo on the enhancement rather than the standard IO graphic

Again, these two systems directly address storage and its place as an SG focused reward. However when you're talking in terms of SG rewards try to keep in mind that you don't want to create a system where people HAVE to be in an SG. You want to create a system where people WANT to be in an SG.

I don't think you and I are too far off on the concept. By giving rewards or benefits to members will attract players to be in sg's. Exactly how that potentially could play out wouldn't matter to me, whether its buffs or upgrades, I like the concept. And I do like the idea of upgrading personal storage as a sg reward.

I personally know someone who bought a few billion inf online and bam! instant 1-man sg base with all the storage. Like I said earlier I see no reason to punish anyone who chooses to do a 1-man storage facility, but the rewards/upgrades shouldn't be anything a 1-man sg should be able obtain on his own or at least in any sense of the term "in the near future". So the Mission Computer offering a system for earning rewards/upgrades via sg tip missions or sg task forces could provide that buffer. It seems more logical than using sg prestige as the benchmark as prestige can be bought with inf and the game seems to have exploded with inf in recent years.

As far as buffs go, it doesn't necessarily penalize soloists, but it does reward sg membership. I am in a medium-large sg and most of my week is soloing. The weekend is my teaming, task force days as I have more time to do so. Could the system work without buffs? Yes. Would buffs attract more players to sg's? Definately.

Empowerment Stations are more or less sg buffs anyway, but if my sg is any representation of the general population of sg's, then hardly anyone is using the empowerment stations. If handing out buffs in general cause the devs some hesitation then there is always the option to remove the Empowerment Stations and have those buffs dished out as temp powers. Maybe earning each type of buff for different achievements and to keep the abuse lower it could be tweaked to keep the buff effect for an hour, but maybe you could only use it once every two hours like the Mission TP power. Or maybe it's a tiered system - it lasts for 10 mins when you first earn it, by further sg achievements you could work it up to an hour? I could see this being very useful for larger SG's attempting the Cathedral of Pain on their own, or sg only task forces, which we do occasionally.