Are bases content? A theoretical excercise.

Hello. Don't believe we've met. A lot of you have been around a lot longer than I have. See, I picked up City right around CoV preorder release.

Not that I have anything against superheros in general, it was just that up to that point, every run I had with the game was found lacking in the basic fundaments of multiplayer gameplay. Before I9, there was really nothing that comprised a group effort. Sure, I could group with others, and often had to to complete a task. But what about MY group? With our matching uniforms and such? Before bases, it was just a nametag.

In addition to my unending desire to spread chaos and havok, I really latched on to the game for what CoV added:

Accessible open PvP.
Extensive base building options.
PvP within said bases.

I abandoned PvP around the time IOs turned it in to a rich man's sport. I refuse to farm until I turn blue simply to avoid getting 2 shotted by a tanker with more inf. This is not a thread about PvP, nor the desolate wasteland those once fun zones have become as a result of fightclubbers and the IO aftermath. This is a thread about bases.

This isn't a thread about making bases prettier. This is a thread about bases having lasting function and value. To tell the truth, city's Prestige system and base builder are probably the most elegant "guild" system I've ever encountered. The concept of the group's achievements belonging to the group rather than a single individual, and the group losing that effort if someone is let go encourage building strong, lasting groups.

Now, back to the topic. Since my initial break with City, I've generally lapsed my subscriptions, returned every few issues to eat up the new, and left again. Those in my SG usually end up coming back all at once, we stick around for a month or two until the new wears off, and we bugger off.

In the mean time, the base grows with every fresh spurt of activity. The base itself is the one thing we're proud of, and the base is the only thing that really stands as a testament to our efforts ingame as a group. Racks full of storage, populated and de-populated by every member coming through. Racks of teleporters that'll take us anywhere we need to be. Decorations, bigger rooms, etc.

Since base raiding was effectively turned off, bases have been in a rapid decline. Aside from the aesthetic details, they are functionally null and void.

1: Base raiding axed/CoP killed.

I know why this was done. It was a flawed system that encouraged preying on people unequipped or inexperienced in PvP. not only that, the CoP and general raid related bugs/exploits were soul crushing. I'm glad to see the CoP come back with a (PvE) reward befitting its (PvE) risk. Base raids? Still on hiatus. Reason?

Result? All defensive systems, capacitors, and every raid related base item is effectively a really expensive paperweight. Sure they're shiny paperweights that don't look like the other ones, but they're still paperweights.

2: Ouroboros

Double edged sword. On the one hand, the flashback system being base accessible was a nice upgrade. On the other hand... you can do that from Ouroboros. Bonus? The O-Portal has invalidated in-base teleport upgrades. Stick that hand in hand with transporter powers from day jobs, boosters, etc. and now you've got more paperweights. Why bother walking to a base portal when you can simply oro-hop anywhere you might be?

3: Inventions

Now we're getting somewhere! All those salvage racks, finally useful for something other than the occasional base item! And they're right next to our tables to craft with! This is an extremely good reason to have a base again! Wait, you mean I can do all this stuff right outside the cap base portal too? Why do we still have this thing?

4: CoP/Silver Mantis redux.

The ONE reason left to have a base. That all important SG raid, was taken away. However, it was replaced with rework of the CoP. We're getting somewhere indeed. Sure, it's old content, but at least the raid teleporter is useful again!


Why haven't bases become more than collections of paperweights in the five years since they were invented?

Content.

Because in order to give bases all the love they need, it would run at odds with developing new SFs, new Story Arcs, and fifty other new ways to dangle a fresh shiny in front of us.

Here are new power sets. Have fun rolling more toons.

Here are new zones. Have fun collecting badges and temps.

Here's the problem. All those shinies are personal acheivements. I PUGd RSF yesterday. I don't expect I'll ever see those people again. The incarnate "endgame" is also a personal achievement. You can switch alignments and do tip missions now. However, these are also purely personal acheivements.

My question is this:

Why in the last five years of development has every addition to the game been focused completely on the single player experience? On "my" level of power.

You know what makes the Avengers work? The group. Fantastic Four? The group. Superfriends? Okay, that's basically just superman, but you get the picture.

In the realm of comics, there are far more stable groups of heroes or villains than there are random pickup groups to abolish some new threat. However, with each content addition, we've been treading further and further away from that all important concept of the "team that could" Yet again we stand on the eve of an issue that states. "You're all on the same side against a bigger threat. Again."

I don't know about the rest of you, but here's my thinking:

Bases can be content too.

Take a break from new personal shinies for an issue or two and focus on group shinies. How about some tip-style missions for the SG computer?

How about developing an NPC raid event system?

How about letting groups of opposing moralities declare an official rivalry?

How can we tie bases and supergroups in to other PvE content?

How can we tie bases and supergroups in to other PvP content?

How about any number of other fantastic (non decorative) suggestions?

In short, how about making bases, and by way of bases, supergroups, actually matter again? Will people complain they can't solo it? Maybe. It didn't seem to be a problem with the resurgence of CoP. Freelancers can piggyback works well enough.

In short, great job on GR. Now start thinking about the amount of "low hanging fruit" you've got in terms of AI pathfinding, the mission architect, and the base raid systems and try and get creative. I'm looking forward to defending my secret lair from intruders of any variety some day soon.

You've clearly thought about this at length. I'd just like to respond to a few things you've brought up here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm 1: Base raiding axed/CoP killed. I know why this was done. It was a flawed system that encouraged preying on people unequipped or inexperienced in PvP. not only that, the CoP and general raid related bugs/exploits were soul crushing. I'm glad to see the CoP come back with a (PvE) reward befitting its (PvE) risk. Base raids? Still on hiatus. Reason? Result? All defensive systems, capacitors, and every raid related base item is effectively a really expensive paperweight. Sure they're shiny paperweights that don't look like the other ones, but they're still paperweights.

This is more or less accurate. While I'd like to see base raids brought back in some form, I was and remain oppose to the idea of destructible bases. I'm glad the old system didn't fly because frankly I would never have done the cathedral in my group - it wouldn't have been worth opening ourselves to mandatory PvP to keep the IoP, to say nothng of inviting destruction of our base incurring more Prestige cost to rebuilt and replace things we'd already worked to create. So I'm glad that mechanic is gone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm 2: Ouroboros Double edged sword. On the one hand, the flashback system being base accessible was a nice upgrade. On the other hand... you can do that from Ouroboros. Bonus? The O-Portal has invalidated in-base teleport upgrades. Stick that hand in hand with transporter powers from day jobs, boosters, etc. and now you've got more paperweights. Why bother walking to a base portal when you can simply oro-hop anywhere you might be?

Not really correct. Ouroboros doesn't go close to everywhere. While the various fast travel methods do reduce the utility of teleporters in the base, they don't make them obsolete. There are several areas, especially heroside, which can only be 'fast-travelled' to via base teleports.

Additionally, while on the subject of Ouroboros, the "No Travel" and "AT Only" challenge settings on Ouroboros arcs disallow most of the fast-travel options but do not lock the player out of his/her SG base. Those badgehunters with a full base have a huge advantage there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm : Inventions Now we're getting somewhere! All those salvage racks, finally useful for something other than the occasional base item! And they're right next to our tables to craft with! This is an extremely good reason to have a base again! Wait, you mean I can do all this stuff right outside the cap base portal too? Why do we still have this thing?

Of course, you might not always be in cap. Having personal vault storage, salvage storage, enhancement storage and crafting tables (and empowerment stations!) all in one place is still significantly more convenient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm 4: CoP/Silver Mantis redux. The ONE reason left to have a base. That all important SG raid, was taken away. However, it was replaced with rework of the CoP. We're getting somewhere indeed. Sure, it's old content, but at least the raid teleporter is useful again!

Agreed, and with the return of the cathedral there's hope for base-launched content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm My question is this: Why in the last five years of development has every addition to the game been focused completely on the single player experience? On "my" level of power. You know what makes the Avengers work? The group. Fantastic Four? The group. Superfriends? Okay, that's basically just superman, but you get the picture. In the realm of comics, there are far more stable groups of heroes or villains than there are random pickup groups to abolish some new threat. However, with each content addition, we've been treading further and further away from that all important concept of the "team that could" Yet again we stand on the eve of an issue that states. "You're all on the same side against a bigger threat. Again."

It's important to keep in mind the difference between "Online Game" and "comic book simulator". Some things translate well from the source material, other things don't. That's true of shifts between any media, and just because something does or doesn't appear in comics may not by itself be good justification for inclusion.

In this case, not all players are in SGs. Of those, not all SGs will pursue all SG content offered. Making content for SGs is therefore not the best return on investment for the Devs as some players are going to feel locked out of it from the word go, while other players will dismiss it and won't use it (this will happen regardless of what the Devs do - PvP SGs will "lolcarebear" when roleplaying elements are added; PvE-based SGs ignore or actively avoid the PvP-based new raid content they make, etc, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm I don't know about the rest of you, but here's my thinking: Bases can be content too. Take a break from new personal shinies for an issue or two and focus on group shinies. How about some tip-style missions for the SG computer?

I like this idea, it creates a new use for this item and makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm How about developing an NPC raid event system?

I'm not sure how this would work. Do the invading mobs do lasting damage to the base? What would the goal be? I think this has promise but seems easily exploitable with mob AI of the type we have now. It'd likely be a trivial matter to set up a base that kills the mobs essentially for you by exploiting their poor AI. Perhaps the mobs could give little or no XP to make this a nonissue, but then it's likely no one would do the content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm How about letting groups of opposing moralities declare an official rivalry?

And interesting idea. If they ever get the Archenemy system working, this would be a natural outgrowth of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm How can we tie bases and supergroups in to other PvE content? How can we tie bases and supergroups in to other PvP content? How about any number of other fantastic (non decorative) suggestions?

Good questions all, though decorative additions would be welcome also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadestorm In short, how about making bases, and by way of bases, supergroups, actually matter again? Will people complain they can't solo it? Maybe. It didn't seem to be a problem with the resurgence of CoP. Freelancers can piggyback works well enough.

I disagree with the implication that bases and SGs don't matter now. They do, and to a large extent the degree to which they matter is a reflection on the degree of dedication, effort and personal investment one puts into them. This to my mind is how it should be, rather than a game setup that demands you be a member of a large group just to do content that you are otherwise barred from ever seeing/doing (as in certain other MMOs). While I would welcome more base stuff, I do not want to see a paradigm shift in that direction for this game.

While I think bases are still relevant, I do agree that getting them more attention first requires they grab the attention of players.
Sadly, to do this, we must appeal to the mechanical aspects:
Base item linked buffs to SG members.

Basically, power and control units of the varying tiers (and perhaps teleporters and medical items) would give small buffs to various stats based on their tiers.
For example, having a super computer could give all members of the SG +2% to all defenses and +2% to ToHit, while having a first tier power unit could give a +1% buff to Damage and Resistance.
This is really a rough idea that was inspired by reading the description on the third tier arcane power source; the "Dimensional Vortex" which draws energy from a dimension of infinite power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

AzureSky said

Though Shadestorm brings up a good point in regard to "group content", it is quite evident that his focus is from a PvP standpoint. And there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself.

I understand that a lot of folks would like to see base PvP return, but we have to be careful about doing it to the exclusion of those who have found other uses for bases.

I think Justaris and Fulmens have hit the counterpoints quite well.

Could bases use some content/functionality luvin'? Absolutely.
Does the scarcity of content/functionality make bases useless? Absolutely not.

.

Just thought of another idea for bases... I havent read the bajillion threads on it so its probably already been covered.

if a SG member is on line, and not on a mission, have the base raided by NPCs, where as the warning bells would go off and the SG has to rush back to the base to defend it from the intruders, maybe make it something similar to a radio mission. At the same time this would allow the most ranking member/team leader to choose whether to accept it as a "mission" or not. (not sure if that was a coherent enough thought or not)

make it like a safeguard mission... "There is word that <insert villian group here> is devising a plan to attack your base, do you want us to take care of it or can you handle it yourself"

there, it's optional

in fact you can set up the maps like a safeguard mission where you have to protect the portal to start with, they may never make it into your base (unless you wait too long, again, like the safeguard missions)

Thanks posters. I realize I may have put a more negative spin on it than I really intended. Bases aren't USELESS by any stretch of the word, however there is a remarkable lack of really special content in regards to bases.

ow, I had a thought about optional setups for NPC raids. I'm keeping this in a PvE specific bubble. This is a base operational risk with base-specific rewards. Nothing could be gained through this system that could benefit a single player. The idea is that, like prestige, this system belongs to the group, and does not pay individual benefits.

Operations level:

Assume your hero or villain group has gained enough prestige to hire staff (or hire/subjugate henchmen if you're a villain.) So you get yourself an AE-like interface to design the costumes/powers of said staff, based on a prestige cost for various base items (call them "crew items") Which determine the amount of staff your base can support. These would be rooms/items for the purposes of training, housing, and maintaining your hirelings.

Now, what's the point?

The base operations level is an optional system that can be altered once every 24 hours. Setting base operations level above zero tasks your hirelings with a specific job, which results in an automated gain of prestige, unique base items, etc. Higher numbers or quality of hirelings will allow more reliable performance of higher operational levels.

However, this comes at a cost. With an ops level above zero, your base begins to attract attention. The higher your ops level, the more likely you are to come under attack from NPC factions you've tasked your personnel to interact with. The higher your operations level, the greater the gain on prestige, and research/spycraft/loot/etc. toward base specific items gained through the system.

What is the risk/reward?

NPC raids can damage your base items. Base items can not be destroyed via these raids, but they can be rendered inoperable. Damaged or inoperable systems can not be sold. In order to fix them, you'll need to task some hirelings with repair work. These repairs do not cost prestige, but they do cost time. That is time you can't task the same number of minions with running ops, and thus your base is not operating at peak efficiency.

You're not LOSING and re-farming prestige. If you get seriously whacked, you can always stand down all operations and stick the base on repairs until its all fixed up again.

New minions are trained at a fixed rate, thus your "bottleneck" is number of available minions to carry out tasks. Set ops too high, you lose minions at a disproportionate rate to your gain, and become even less efficient, possibly incurring even more base damage as a result of an NPC raid.

Thus, the risk is losing base functionality in terms of operational efficiency, defense, teleport capacity, etc. for a potential reward of increased prestige gains, new base shinies, etc.

NPC raids would be set on a base vulnerability window, say somewhere in the range of two hours every day. Vulnerability windows are a great way to prevent players from needing to be on call 24 hours a day. During that window, a raid event may spawn at your base, you'll be notified via the zone events channel if it happens.

Since we still have the tab for it, I'd advocate that base salvage be reinstated, and that minion operations be the only way to obtain it, and the only way to construct anything unlocked via the system.

Possible other additions to the system:

"Tip" style missions from the SG computer - Accompany your minions on ops.

SG specific temp powers - Limited utilization of minions by SG members as a temp power (reinforcements, orbital strikes, etc.) from a common pool (This temp power can be used once every 24 hours by anyone with permissions in the SG.)

Nemesis systems - Allows opposing SGs to run NPC ops against each other, potentially stealing ops-gained resources from the other. Think of it as PvP-lite. You don't fight the other SG, but you would fight their minions.



This is really a skeletal outline, but its just one example of ways to use bases as content.

How about this to encourage SGs and SG teaming. For each SG member of the same SG above 1 on a team you get a 1% bonus to regen, recharge, recovery, damage and accuracy. Non-SG members get half the bonus. Not game breaking but a perk for SG teaming.

Couple recent thoughts about the long slog of:

"What to do about the bases?"

As it stands, due to technical pathing, the base raid function is null.

When the pathing was on, it was no big deal to construct a functional base.

It was also equally as easy to add form/decor to it.

If raid pathing was RE-enabled (as an option given to the SG Leader) and the base owners could edit their bases to comply with the raid compliant pathing, one could imagine that it is conceivable to merge the existing PvP system and integrate it with some manner of the unification of the code for MA and Zone Glowie tech in to an "Instanced Zone" as a new "Feature" to the system overall.

Base Owners could set up "scenarios" Set/Housed in an Instance for other teams (or multiple teams including Coalition Members as Allies to the Base Owner)-- to attempt to complete in a time limit or conditions.

Winning team each get a medium-rare shiny on a clickie timer and short cooldown naturally...just enough to be useful for a handful of tuff battles.

This could be a big thing with the amount of Creative Juice in the area--

Another Option...storage....add a Library so U can Stash Like 5 Recipes

Another - Base Item like a Training Center--Put it 3 Temp Power Recipes in it, Member of the SG can Get 1 (Item only Holds one of each Temp Power--Item only works on Temp Power Recipes)

Might require a total rewrite of the editor--lot of resource devoted there.

I like the idea of npc raids especially if the said in comings were worth not xp, not inf, but rather a "boosty" prestige, as in a huge boost,

say... we were raided several times today and now we can afford a nice new sg control item...that gives us an epic buff...

*wakes up and changes sheets*

edit: I think that would be a good mechanic, I mean, with what happened to the IoP buff and all...*sniff*

I would like to see npc's try to navigate my base in an npc raid.

I would invite everyone I could just to watch them lose their digital minds.

Most current bases fall in to that category. Unfortunately I can't see any way other than a herculean effort in terms of software engineering to have bases that both allow the current style clipping/nonpathing, and base raids by players OR NPCs.

Thus my suggestion that the plots simply be ported over, so that those who want to do base raid content can sell off their old base and swap the plot to a raid-legal-placing rules plot.

After all, I've seen some truly beautiful bases, and it'd be a shame to tell people they HAVE to take them apart. However I do think its simply not feasible for the NPC AI to handle the amount of freedom we currently have placing things.

Maybe a compromise? Give bases a "basement" where you'd put all the functional items, and have that be the area that the raids use, leaving your awesomesauce clipped and stacked bases intact but still allowing you to do the content?