Are bases content? A theoretical excercise.
By
American_Angel,
Posted on: 2010-10-20 22:23 in Base Construction
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Careful. My heart soars like a hawk at the renewed interest in the functional aspects of bases. But "the devil" truly is "in the details". My ears are still ringing from past insults, not from the devs... they say nothing, but from my fellow players at the mere suggestion that something might be easily doable:|
Originally Posted by Major Deej
In regards to the cross-utilizaton of both AE and Arena to these two suggestions, although I am not a programmer, it seems easier to use existing game tech (due to the diminished focus on bases by devs) than create new content for said bases.
Using existing in-game mechanics and maybe tweaking what we have and applying it to the bases might be a stepping stone to get some activity back in the bases, and maybe a little more attention by the devs to our needs. I know there are many more incredible suggestions and ideas out here in the forums in terms of ideas and suggestions for the bases, but maybe a bit of (what I deem) easier-to-make additional ("unique") functionality might help the base/SG/VG community. |
["You want personal apartments? - Go build your own base. You want tailor, arena, auction house, AE? - You know where they are at. You want better storage? - Create more characters and gmail stuff. You want to travel? - Use base alternates.
Look, here's what you don't get: Dev time and resources are more precious than gold. The devs should not waste their time trying to recreate this stuff in bases (which is not trivial to do like you think) just because you want it (nao!!1!) . Bases are broken. Stop braying about it. Now, OTOH, here's my idea to... yada, yada, yada"].
You would be amazed at how quickly we players "all wanting the same thing" disintegrates. I know I was.
I'm really not trying to put a damper on things. That gets done too often as it is. But I only thought it fair to warn you that we do not suffer from a lack of ideas. Let's just say there is a lot of "momentum" to overcome that includes both an "sg unfriendly" development track record (which is actually worse than being "ignored") and player resistance to back devoting scare resources to this vice something else (like say decorate).
If you can remain optimistic through all that you are my kind of person. Let's keep pushing for it.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Technically you don't lose that effort if someone loses. My SG used to have a rotating roster. If this were true we would have next to no prestige. You do of course lose future prestige from that character.|
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
The concept of the group's achievements belonging to the group rather than a single individual, and the group losing that effort if someone is let go encourage building strong, lasting groups.
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I think SGs are convenient in some ways, but you can get around the game easily without a SG. The game, as it stands, seems to prefer many small SGs instead of large one with how inexpensive desired base items have become.
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No no no... do NOT remove the stations or nerf them in any way!|
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Empowerment Stations are more or less sg buffs anyway, but if my sg is any representation of the general population of sg's, then hardly anyone is using the empowerment stations. If handing out buffs in general cause the devs some hesitation then there is always the option to remove the Empowerment Stations and have those buffs dished out as temp powers. Maybe earning each type of buff for different achievements and to keep the abuse lower it could be tweaked to keep the buff effect for an hour, but maybe you could only use it once every two hours like the Mission TP power. Or maybe it's a tiered system - it lasts for 10 mins when you first earn it, by further sg achievements you could work it up to an hour?
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The whole benefit of the empowerment stations is that you can CHOOSE which empowerment you need for any given situation.
Also, the stations are already tiered in such a manner that not only do you need progressive amounts of prestige (you have to craft each tier) but you also burn progressive amounts of salvage... you know, the same salvage that people like to use for their IO's and are reluctant to put into group storage...
People simply need to be reminded that those stations are there for the GROUP members to use... and that they do last for an hour, not the 15 min.s that is stated on the recipes.
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
A big part of the current problem is is storage. ...
So, without getting off topic, lets address storage in the vein of an SG focused reward. ...Now, we know every person has a personal vault. We also know that salvage racks hold exactly as much as a personal vault. |
The capacity of the personal vault increases with the level of your character, up to at least 50 items.
The capacity of the salvage racks is 30 items, period.
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
Now, imagine you could place an upgraded base vault, but only as an SG option. So for doing SG focused content in addition to upgraded base defenses and devices for analyzing SG tips you can also purchase extended vaults. Every member of the SG with an extended vault has expanded personal storage.
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
...This is the best of both worlds. You still have racks for community storage, but there is a tangible personal benefit to helping out the group. It doesn't outbalance any personal power levels because unlike a buff, you can't get anything with that extra salvage you couldn't get otherwise.
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I do like the idea of somehow using the new Tip Mission function for SGs. As you say, there does need to be some kind of Group AND personal reward for doing them. Players have a hard time justifying spending their time "unlocking" something for the group, when they could be working on their builds, or inf, or merits, or AE stories, or some other more personally tangible pursuit.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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That's just it though Kat. Doing this only makes it even more attractive to leave an established SG specifically for storage reasons. The idea behind increased personal storage for all SG members was to create a system where it's more desirable to stick with the SG and work as a group. Simply increasing base storage doesn't address the problem that there's a finite limit on storage for an indeterminate number of SG members.|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
OR, They could simply increase the capacity of storage racks to 100, to be on par with the rest of the SG storage bins. The 30 item limit has caused SG's to be more restrictive with their salvage permissions. Increasing the capacity would allow for more flexibility for SG's to set up storage racks according to their group's needs ("community" racks & "player" racks).
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This means that the bigger the SG is, the less useful the storage space is because even while 1200 pieces of storage might be enough for ten people, adding ten more to the SG means there's less storage to go around.
I'm aware that personal storage increases as you level, but the thinking here was that an upgraded SG vault creates a storage slot bonus for every member, leaving the communal storage as is. Not only does this create an environment where the members want to stay in the SG (to keep their bonus storage) but it alleviates any headaches for leadership when determining permissions. They can use the racks for communal storage, but it makes a situation where using an SG base as a personal vault is less efficient than using an SG base as an SG base. Racks were originally designed as a group utility. They were used to store base salvage, which could only be used on base items. Bases were converted to personal salvage, and thus were the racks. They limits were put in place to prevent hoarding invention salvage.
This system still prevents too much hoarding on invention salvage, but doesn't penalize the SG for adding more members in terms of salvage storage. Thus, you're not nerfing one man SGs. You're buffing SGs as a whole in a manner that encourages sticking with the SG. More people working together will gain more storage for more people. The way it is now, and the way it would be with larger racks is the problem we already have. More people working together actually gains LESS storage for more people.
As for empowerment buffs, these are fine as is. I'm against static "you're in the group so you are more powerful" buffs. If anything I wouldn't mind seeing empowerment expanded. It's essentially a crafted temp power, and it would stand to reason that if the current empowerment that grants sorta okay buffs for common salvage is balanced on a cost/benefit scale, why shouldn't we be able to utilize the same system to do even more powerful enhancement for more costly (as in rarity level) salvage?
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Past a certain point, yeah, you don't lose anything. However your thinking in terms of SGs seems to be limited to the ability to get around. If I weren't sure to be hanged for the suggestion I'd advocate all prestige gained by a member being lost when the member was removed. I'm not going to suggest that because although prestige is thematically supposed to be about a certain degree of fame the group has, its more functionally apt as a currency in an economy where gain is completely clearly not proportionate to loss.|
Originally Posted by Chant
Technically you don't lose that effort if someone loses. My SG used to have a rotating roster. If this were true we would have next to no prestige. You do of course lose future prestige from that character.
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Prestige sinks are something I haven't touched on yet in the thread, but rest assured they're a topic that needs to be addressed. Rent and base raid loss were both failed ways to implement sinks. They're both functional penalties for gameplay. Rent was lowered to the point of just being a check that you're gaining a little prestige, and base raiding was a system that actively promoted PvP focused SGs preying on PvE focused SGs regardless of their desire or ability to PvP.
The problem with both of these systems was that the sinks were penalties rather than rewards. This created an environment where you HAD to spend prestige on the sink rather than WANTING to spend prestige on it.
Prestige sinks should be looked at in terms of bonuses. The option on spend prestige on finite consumables that benefit the SG in a very material way would bring that economy back in check. This is the same model that the invention system uses to create inf sinks on a personal player economic level. You spend inf because you're paying for stuff that can't re-enter the system. You craft and slot that IO and for all intents and purposes that inf is gone, and you can't get it back, but you got something worthwhile for it.
Similarly, the ability to spend prestige on something fun as a sink would help bring that prestige economy back in check. An optional sink like the market and invention systems that allows SGs to do something with extra prestige. My group for instance has no desire to upgrade to the largest plot available and fill it with a bunch of decorative rooms. We like our small but functional base. We should be able to use extra prestige. Similarly, the oldest SGs have so much extra prestige just lying around after reaching the deco limit, on a massive secure plot, with as many rooms and toys as possible. What's the benefit of gaining prestige once you hit that ceiling? For that matter, what's the functional benefit of being in the SG long enough to hit that ceiling?
If prestige is a currency, then the economy for that currency needs to be brought in line to ensure its value.
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Originally Posted by Chant
I think SGs are convenient in some ways, but you can get around the game easily without a SG. The game, as it stands, seems to prefer many small SGs instead of large one with how inexpensive desired base items have become.
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They weren't originally designed as convenience hubs. They were designed as gameplay mechanisms. Power, control, defense items, etc. The base systems were originally designed completely around base raiding. This isn't a thread about base raids. This is a thread about thinking in terms of returning bases to something that plays a more active functional role in the game play of its members. We have the convenience functions already.
The SG base should not be merely convenient. It should not be merely eye candy. It should be functional for the implementation of SG focused game play for any number of members, and for any style of SG. PvE, PvP, RP, Non-RP, Large, Small, you name it.
The topic of discussion here is ways to make that happen.
I'm going to address this first...
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Hoarding is a NON issue. The argument does not hold water, it's a fallacy, completely bogus. |
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
They limits were put in place to prevent hoarding invention salvage.
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If you, or anyone else, want to see base salvage change in ANY way, we need to put this argument down! The very fact that we are now allowed to e-mail salvage to ourselves blows this argument out of the water.
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
Simply increasing base storage doesn't address the problem that there's a finite limit on storage for an indeterminate number of SG members.
This means that the bigger the SG is, the less useful the storage space is because even while 1200 pieces of storage might be enough for ten people, adding ten more to the SG means there's less storage to go around. I'm aware that personal storage increases as you level, but the thinking here was that an upgraded SG vault creates a storage slot bonus for every member, leaving the communal storage as is. |
But I am still of the opinion that they should raise the capacity of salvage racks to be on par with the rest of the base storage tables/bins.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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Calm down. Seriously. Just take a moment and calm down.|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
I'm going to address this first...
Hoarding is a NON issue. The argument does not hold water, it's a fallacy, completely bogus. If you, or anyone else, want to see base salvage change in ANY way, we need to put this argument down! The very fact that we are now allowed to e-mail salvage to ourselves blows this argument out of the water. |
I'm not stating this on its merit as a logical argument. I'm stating this as the reason we were given for the current limitations. I'm stating this as the reason that racks were given a 30 piece limit. Whether it makes sense or not, this is fact. That's why they were set to 30.
As long as there is finite space and an infinite supply, hoarding can never meaningfully affect the market. Duh. Of course it doesn't make sense. Yelling about it in giant green letters doesn't help your case. It makes you look emotional and reactionary rather than reasonable and thoughtful about the problem.
Posts like that one do far more harm than any amount of logical flaws in regards to the system. It shallows your argument by dressing it up as a whine rather than the legitimate point that it is. In the end, it does your cause more harm than good. Nobody wants to be yelled at when they could have just been spoken to. I'd imagine this would include Paragon Studios on the rare occasion they actually visit the base forums for community feedback.
Turning what's supposed to be a reasoned discussion in to a shouting match is not acceptable. Please calm down. People are making good points in this thread without yelling at each other. I'd like to keep this as reasonable as possible.
/em give catnip
Adding more space to the existing racks is still a larger benefit to single person SGs than it is to actual SGs. It is directly in opposition of creating an environment where people want to join and stay a member of an established SG. Would my blue side one man SG be thrilled to have all that extra bank space? Sure. Is it good for the game at large? I don't believe it is.
Personally, I don't care much about how large the racks are. I'm more concerned with what we can do with what's on them, and how it creates meaningful game play that uses the base as a centerpiece rather than a closet.
So here's a new question:
**Aside from base items and empowerment buffs, what else could we do with salvage in an SG focused system?
**Should base items continue to compete with personal IOs for salvage?
**Could base salvage be streamlined or given an alternate gain method and reintroduced?
I was not "yelling".
The giant green letters are links.
I always make my links bold and green. Always.
I was simply trying to make the point that the "hoarding" logic does not stand up, and we should not use it as support for change. And bringing it up time and again as the "explanation" lends it credence instead of bringing it down. You do not need to "explain" anything to this group. We have heard all the explanations, we know the arguments inside and out.
Don't get me wrong, here. I think it's great that you are encouraging "outside the box" ideas and brainstorming. But we really don't need the "explanations".
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
mt
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
Fair enough Kat. Now, on with the show! I was a bit busy this week so I didn't get a chance to touch on Deej's systems. In the spirit of discussion I'm going to do that now.
Also, every few major things the thread goes over, I'm going to start updating the OP with hotlinks and a general community consensus. A lot of ideas are being covered in the thread and I think having the discussion there readable for anyone who drops by would be nice, but its getting to the volume where it'll be nice to have a table of contents for each major point.
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Not that these ideas don't have merit, but my major issue is that by and large they're simply re-skins of existing features. While I, like many, are in favor of adding more convenience functionality to bases I can't see the a real benefit in having customized SG versions of these features.|
Originally Posted by Major Deej
Training (Danger) Room for Bases
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=242816 Add a Unique AE Interface for SG/VG Bases http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=242829 |
If anything, like many others have suggested, you'd be much better off simply mirroring the existing functionality as a convenience feature the same way teleporters and the Oro crystal are implemented. It would also be the most direct implementation method.
The arena and Architect communities are small enough as is, I can't say I like the idea of purposely splintering them further.
HOWEVER! (I love that word.)
The general themes of these suggestions both hit home on a system that's rather common place in superheroic bases which is missing from our bases. The idea of an area to hone your combat skills (and lets face it, City is really all about combat.) in a safe area at home is pretty much universal in comics.
Rather than re-use of an existing system, how about dreaming up something new?
****************The Training Room**************
This room is available in multiple sizes, and can be fitted with a special base equipment type: Training equipment.
At its most base level, the training room is simply an empty room in which PvP flags are on. You can enter the room, and fight with anyone not in your group. This room confers debt protection, and while holographic enemies defeated in the training room do not award real material goods, defeated holograms award their full amount in virtual XP as patrol experience, up to a maximum of one level of patrol experience per 24 hours.
Supergroup members who spend time training will find themselves advancing in power and recovering from defeats much faster than if they had not spent time in a training room!
When fitted with specialized equipment, the training room may gain a number of other features. I'm going to use tech descriptions for these, but I'm sure you smart people could come up with some arcane equivalents.
Target Dummy (dummy) - This device functions as an inert stationary target, similar to those found in the vanguard base. It has no offensive capabilities and can not be defeated, but may be helpful in gauging the range of powers, relative proc chances, or realistic end usage in an attack chain. This device is extremely inexpensive, and comes in a variety of fun visual styles.
Training Computer (Simulation Manager) - This device comes equipped with an integrated Holographic emitter and User interface capable of designing and running training programs. Unlike the mission architect, these simulations are not intended to mirror existing content. Training simulations are simply a list of spawns placed in sequential order, or on a timer. The goal of a given simulation is to complete it without being defeated in as short a time as possible. Each Training computer is capable of storing up to five custom training programs, as well as a list of the best times per simulation. In addition each Training computer comes pre-loaded with a number of built in scenarios. Training computers will only run programs for which the required number of auxiliary devices are installed.
Holographic Emitter (Training Aux) - Alone these devices do nothing. However, when linked with a training computer, each emitter allows for one more simultaneous hologram during a simulation. A single emitter is capable of supporting three minion, two lieutenants, or one boss+ level hologram.
Training Databank (Training Aux) - Alone these devices do nothing. However, when linked with a training computer, that training computer is capable of storing three additional custom training programs, and five custom architect enemies.
INPUT - In addition to the built in features, SG members can unlock additional hologram templates through the following means:
Gladiators - Any SG member can upload a holographic version of any gladiator badge he or she has unlocked to the training computer, unlocking it for further use.
Architect templates - For a price in architect tickets, vendors at any architect entertainment facility will write a custom architect enemy to a holodisc that can be used to upload it in to the system.
REWARDS - Aside from the patrol XP, The training room is capable of conferring the following rewards:
Personal badges - All built in training scenarios award badge progress toward bronze, silver, and gold level training badges.
Custom Titles - The designer of each training program can specify a badge title for the program. The SG member who holds the best ranked time for the program may wear their title proudly! These titles display in grey rather than the standard blue or "super awesome yellow" to mark their status as custom training titles (no faking bug hunter folks!)
SG badges - Rumor has it that a well trained SG may gain access to more reliable purchasing of larger sized inspirations (badge unlocks med size insp vendor - prices are equivalent to 6x comparable small), or even some inspirations that are otherwise unavaliable. These "Edge" inspirations confer the effects of two small sized inspirations in a single inspiration slot and come in a wide array of flavors! (Examples - Lucky Break: Combined Breakfree and Luck, Instinct: Combined Insight and Enrage)
Not a bad idea, but like Impish suggested, a lack of grand ideas are not the issue. Since seeing the game from CoH beta until today, I've seen sg's go from optional at the beginning to "big deal" and "highly encouraged" with CoV release, until now coming full circle back to optional again.
Throughout that roller coaster of sg interest we find tons and tons of ideas on the forums to make sg bases awesome, and frankly many of them are just plain needed. But, once the virtual wheels fell off the Cathedral of Pain cart and it was removed from the game, base interest and sg support changed for devs. Since then, player interest in sg's can be directly linked to developer interest. The devs have a lack of interest and now it is reflected in the game.
As I believe your intention is generally a serious attempt at generating something workable that might grab some dev interest. I wish to suggest encouraging this discussion to move a little more toward the conservative arena. Making this a thread that isn't asking for much other than "throw us a bone here". In that vain, I believe we should try to encourage potential fixes/solutions to:
- be a limited time invested for the part of the devs.
- and hopefully, with the focus of returning players to sg's.
I think we are pretty much all in agreement that interest in sg's could be accomplished by giving benefits to members. If players see a real benefit to being in a super-group where larger is better then I think players will naturally gravitate toward sg's. Which then should generate more dev interest and maybe we can finally get bases some cool useful features.
For example, regardless of what any else thinks, that idea of expanding storage for sg members is pure gold and I can't possibly see how that could be a time consuming task for the devs. My main can carry over 80 salvage but my sg vault holds 50, so it makes a lot of sense to be able to earn a larger vault by sg play. Once your group earns a larger vault, it would be something to take into consideration if you wanted to leave that group. Its ideas like that that seem very easy to implement and may not seem particularly amazing to others, but chain a few more of these types of ideas together and sg's will be important again.
On a semi-related note, there is another thread going around speaking about the "base building committee" being formed. My thoughts after reading the semi-secret intent by the organizers and the response by Ocho left me very un-impressed that this will accomplish anything. The few details we know offered by the players who are organizing this committee have suggested forming a list of base features/fixes and holding contests. Which is exactly why it isn't going to work. By the way, Ocho responded by being 100% non-committal other than stating that he supports players forming a committee.
Why is that relevant here? The problem isn't the bases, nor is it a lack of player interest in base building, it is supergroups. That committee can hold all the contests they want, and it may lure a few players to take a shot at building a cool looking base, but at the end of the day it did not move the ball forward. You can give a list of features/fixes to the devs but without sg's being anything remotely important to the players, why should the devs do anymore than just applaud the winners of the base building contests? In all fairness to the devs, I can totally understand why working on things like i19 and i20 would rank higher on their list of priorities. If it's not important to a significant population of players, you can be sure they won't prioritize much time to be spent on it.
Don't get me wrong, this is not criticism of your post, Shadestorm. I do enjoy reading your posts. They are easy to support, as they are well thought out and I happen to agree with your way of thinking. My fear is that this thread becomes just another thread that will be chalked up as a list of features that will never see the light of day.
Yes I am happy too that they brought back CoP, now the mish computer isn't a dust collector anymore. They could do so much more with it though. They should make TFs & SFs that when completed as an SG will reward your sg with decoration items. Instead of the vet reward where they gave you statesmans mask, recluses mask, manticores bow; they should have done a SG TF that rewarded your sg with those items for beating them in that TF.
How about a contest where they judge the best looking small, medium and large SGs, the best themed sg, the most consistant designed sg, ect and have that displayed above the sg toons names for all to see. That might draw in some of the peeps that like to show look what i did, even though it would be a collective thing to some degree. Overall it's the base editor that developed the design, collectively as a whole though, the sg got them there with earning prestige so that the base could be decorated.
Personally, I think any and all interest in bases is a great thing. Base prettiness contest, like any contest are a good idea.
Working within the scope of "limited developer time" and "This could get done fast" are issues we already understand. Expanded/ported base items are a perfect example of that. The first proposed system in the thread was one people didn't like, and the discussion prompted thinking in the dierection of simplicity, and more importantly usefulness to the player base at large.
However, simply saying "well lets do things that won't take much effort" is not going to help the situation. With that attitude, powers customization would have never happened. What made powers customization happen is that people rallied behind it, even after being told repeatedly that it would take an extreme amount of effort.
Similarly, while any and all love applied to base and SG systems are a great thing, including decorations or contests, if people as a whole can't find a handful of ideas they *really* want to get behind and press the matter, nothing is going to happen. The problem with a lot of the proposed quick fixes is that they're focused on the base building community far more heavily than the community at large. It's very much like pushing for a specific powerset or AT. If the issue isn't of interest to as large a portion of the player base as possible, it has the least likelihood of getting addressed.
The hot button issue at the moment is storage and convenience. These are great places to start.
Supporting any easy and quick fix is a great thing, as those are the things that are more likely to get done first. I'd be thrilled with any of those features. These are things everyone can agree on, and Kat and others have done a great job of putting together lists of those issues. All I'm trying to do here is prompt discussion of potential systems that as many people as possible can turn over and refine. In the end, between everyone involved (and not just the base builders, but everyone) find something that's of interest to as many players as possible. In this manner, between all of us together, maybe we can all come up with something that makes bases and SGs start to serve that important role that's fun for everyone. Not just the base builders, but everyone.
The simpler idea that the both of you brought up is a great interim step as well! Add SF/TF contacts to the mission computer, and hand out an SG reward for completion of them in "SGTF Mode." Be it bonus prestige, SG badges, or base items, it is a great idea in terms of encouraging SG play for SG rewards even if it is simply recycling existing content.
Perhaps we should aim for a two headed approach here? Keep the focus on refining and discussing all potential system, but start ranking them by ease of use and utility?
The vault upgrades and SGTF mode mission computer would rank at the top of the list. Without access to the development pipeline for any of this we have a hard time determining what's easier or not, but we CAN make and educated guess. The hireling system is essentially a dead topic because people hate it, but the SG tip system would seem to be further down the list than the training room due to the necessity of actually designing new missions in the SG tip system.
More important is to get feedback on every potential system to determine what people like or hate about them, toss out the unpopular ideas, and refine the good ones.
So here's a new round of questions:
**SGTF: What are some potential SG rewards for running this content via the mission computer with and SG team?
**Vault Upgrades: What sort of upgrade path seems appropriate? Prestige placement? Crafted? "Vault aux"?
**Other ideas: How can they be simplified to retain function but cut down on development effort?
I'll be honest...when I saw the title of this threat, I was certain it would be someones way of saying Bases don't matter in the game. I entered this thread prepared to rebuke, but instead found a well presented arguement.
Very well done, Shadestorm.
That said, I do not agree with everything you said and have comments on other stuff:
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While that certainly played a role, the real reason was pathing. Since introducing the new pathing system (which I love), Base Raids became impossible. Entire rooms can now be closed off...make it impossible for invading forces to win.|
1: Base raiding axed/CoP killed. I know why this was done. It was a flawed system that encouraged preying on people unequipped or inexperienced in PvP. not only that, the CoP and general raid related bugs/exploits were soul crushing. I'm glad to see the CoP come back with a (PvE) reward befitting its (PvE) risk. Base raids? Still on hiatus. Reason? Result? All defensive systems, capacitors, and every raid related base item is effectively a really expensive paperweight. Sure they're shiny paperweights that don't look like the other ones, but they're still paperweights. |
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2: Ouroboros Double edged sword. On the one hand, the flashback system being base accessible was a nice upgrade. On the other hand... you can do that from Ouroboros. Bonus? The O-Portal has invalidated in-base teleport upgrades. Stick that hand in hand with transporter powers from day jobs, boosters, etc. and now you've got more paperweights. Why bother walking to a base portal when you can simply oro-hop anywhere you might be? |
A base will take you there instantly.
I addition, Ouroboros is only accessable from level 25 on...which means bases are even more useful for toons below that level.
Boros also has a vender, which is a plus. This is why bases should have venders added.
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3: Inventions Now we're getting somewhere! All those salvage racks, finally useful for something other than the occasional base item! And they're right next to our tables to craft with! This is an extremely good reason to have a base again! Wait, you mean I can do all this stuff right outside the cap base portal too? Why do we still have this thing? |
However, you do not have the same resourses as in a base. As someone that uses the invention system constantly, and I am also able to make billions per week in WW, my storage in the market window is usually full. A base helps fix that.
Still, adding a Market Interface to bases would be a good addition.
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4: CoP/Silver Mantis redux. The ONE reason left to have a base. That all important SG raid, was taken away. However, it was replaced with rework of the CoP. We're getting somewhere indeed. Sure, it's old content, but at least the raid teleporter is useful again! |
Much like the Radio or Paper system for heroes and villains, this system could say something like:
"A villain group called Devils Minions is rumored to be planning an invasion of a local radio station..."
The system could offer tickets that can be used for buffs through a buff vender in the base...or some other reward.
I am a big time soloist in the game, but I can see your point about the lack of team-based development affecting the game.
I play on Freedom, and I have always been a good team player, although I prefer solo overall. Yet it is still hard to find groups at times even when the server is red.
Clearly, more team content is needed, and making it SG/VG/Base-related will give it staying power...unlike all of the stuff released in the last 2 years that become boring over short periods of time.
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Initially, when reading this and several other related threads, I thought the same thing, "something new" is/has been needed. |
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
Rather than re-use of an existing system, how about dreaming up something new?
****************The Training Room************** This room is available in multiple sizes, and can be fitted with a special base equipment type: Training equipment. |
I've been told I have an 'active imagination' and that I've been able to come up with some neat ideas in the past, however, with age and work & military-invoked pessimism, I've also learned to 'read the card player's tells' and make decisions with relative compromise at times. My 'read' on bases, in general, as related to our devs, is that without a collective (or even singular) driving developer behind it, bases shall continue to languish without new things. The devs will throw us a bone once in awhile, but not at high development time and expense. This seems to be their modus apperendi of late.
While I LOVE the idea of 'new' (and I agree with our point about the push of power customization), I think the compromise of utilizing existing system 'with a twist' is probably the best hope I personally see for bases at this point.
Aside from my pessimistic view, I do honestly subscribe to the desire for new and exciting features in the bases. Supergroups DESERVE to have unique functionality in bases as earned features. With tthe two suggestions I toosed out there, I figured, at minimal dev time & effort, they would promote more teaming, infuse mid to larger SGs/VGs with purpose, and establish a potential for invigorating PvP, AE and Arena utilization across the board.
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
When fitted with specialized equipment, the training room may gain a number of other features. I'm going to use tech descriptions for these, but I'm sure you smart people could come up with some arcane equivalents.
Target Dummy (dummy) Training Computer (Simulation Manager) Holographic Emitter (Training Aux) Training Databank (Training Aux) |
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
INPUT - In addition to the built in features, SG members can unlock additional hologram templates through the following means:
Gladiators Architect templates |
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
REWARDS - Aside from the patrol XP, The training room is capable of conferring the following rewards:
Personal badges - All built in training scenarios award badge progress toward bronze, silver, and gold level training badges. Custom Titles - The designer of each training program can specify a badge title for the program. The SG member who holds the best ranked time for the program may wear their title proudly! These titles display in grey rather than the standard blue or "super awesome yellow" to mark their status as custom training titles (no faking bug hunter folks!) |
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
SG badges - Rumor has it that a well trained SG may gain access to more reliable purchasing of larger sized inspirations (badge unlocks med size insp vendor - prices are equivalent to 6x comparable small), or even some inspirations that are otherwise unavaliable. These "Edge" inspirations confer the effects of two small sized inspirations in a single inspiration slot and come in a wide array of flavors! (Examples - Lucky Break: Combined Breakfree and Luck, Instinct: Combined Insight and Enrage)
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How many times have we been in a battle and we have 2 yellow inspirations in our personal Inspriation Inventory left and can't get a 3rd to craft a green inspriation when yo need it? Instead, if you use the training rooms, you can gain "SG/VG Inspirations" (3 tiered of course, relating to the three level of training as mentioned in your posts above) that acts as a wild card for ANY relative tiered inspiration.
If you have those two yellow inspirations and need that evasive third one to craft that one green inspiration to get you thorugh the final leg of the battle, if you have a properly tiered "SG/VG Inspiration", you can use it as a wildcard to draft that one green inspiration you need.
Regardless, I am truly all for new content/features and ideas. I think the ideas that are being discussed and collated are intrinsically valuable to getting what is desperately needed - attention to the bases and supergroups.
I'm happy to be in the company of positively-motivated like-minders. I dislike compromise or re-utilization as much as the next person, but after decades or 2x4s to the head over issues like this, I have grown a bit more compromising in certain aspects.
I simply wish our devs had the capacity to assign a solely-focused "Bases/Supergroups" dev to our plight without ganking him off to other unrelated taskings. This way, I believe much of all we are requesting would have a more prolific voice in the house of Paragon Studios, especially at their planning/idea meetings.
Actually yes Deej, the interface/input and the whole training room system at large was largely inspired by your ideals. Actually, everything I've posted here with the exception of the initial hireling system has been a direct reflection of other people's desires/ideas/systems.
Granted we have extremely limited power here, and Paragon has limited capital to work with. I'm sure there's no shortage of qualified resumes on the table for developers with the experience and ability to fill that "SG systems lead" spot. However when it comes down to doing what with how much time, the current order of buisiness is the incarnate endgame, which is equally important in terms of design direction. Just as much as it is refreshing to finally see a push toward worthwhile content for existing high levelled characters, I think these sorts of SG focused systems also comprise a sort of group based endgame.
If what Posi's been working on all this time is any indication, Paragon seems prepared to stop working in the direction of disposable content and toward some systems that are more emergent and sustainable. That is a great thing!
I think more than anything its important that discussion of these sorts of things stays alive just as much as discussion of AT buffs, new powersets, etc.
I do like the idea of a wildcard insp though! Say it's essentially a random insp, and thus less costly, however it would fill the requirement for insp combination. These wouldn't drop, and for practical purposes aren't excessively useful. However, they're cheap, and perhaps if some sort of buff/benefit not avaliable through other means.
However, as much fun as it is to pseudo-design new systems, lets look at expansion to existing systems that would function in a more utilitarian context. While it goes without saying that certain convenience hubs are a given, I'm talking about adding new things to existing systems given what we know about them.
The focus for these ideas should be SG based. For example, some sort of SG granted power similar to the alignment powers, with the caveat that it stacks from multiple casters, thus it would be best used in an SG group. Or how about an SG pet temp that upgrades with multiple applications similar to the way masterminds upgrade their own minions?
The idea here is to encourage SG play by leveraging SG mechanics even while tackling existing content. Temp powers are an easy way to start thinking about this, and recipies could be relatively easily added to the existing crafting stations.
Anyone else got any ideas for fast "one shot" ideas in terms of temp powers, empowerments, or other fun stuff that could be added to existing functions to promote SG play?
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Agreed, and I truly hope that the newer, unique ideas generated can and will be implemented in lieu of compromised quick add-ons.|
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
However, as much fun as it is to pseudo-design new systems, lets look at expansion to existing systems that would function in a more utilitarian context. While it goes without saying that certain convenience hubs are a given, I'm talking about adding new things to existing systems given what we know about them.
The focus for these ideas should be SG based. For example, some sort of SG granted power similar to the alignment powers, with the caveat that it stacks from multiple casters, thus it would be best used in an SG group. Or how about an SG pet temp that upgrades with multiple applications similar to the way masterminds upgrade their own minions? The idea here is to encourage SG play by leveraging SG mechanics even while tackling existing content. Temp powers are an easy way to start thinking about this, and recipies could be relatively easily added to the existing crafting stations. |
I imagine that we all in our little community have quite a distinctive imagination and, from what I've read on related topics in these forums, an equally sound judgement as to the types of items and content the bases need.
I'm more than willing to give a concerted effort in discussion and ideas for our small community as so many have thusfar.
So, as Shadestorm asked and to keep the ball rolling, anyone else got any ideas for fun stuff that could be added to existing functions to promote SG play?
Here's another idea. Let's suppose supergroups earned "Supergroup Merits".
Merits like the Hero/Villian Merits are so much harder to abuse than a system like sg prestige which can be bought and is earned for everything you defeat in sg mode. So I was thinking a system where items unlocked, containers upgraded, or member rewards should have their "counter" if unlocked or their own "currency" if it is purchasable, which sg merits could be used for in whichever way works better. Then to implement a system like this only 3 real issues need to be addressed. What would be upgradable/purchasable, what cost/levels of merits unlock/purchasing happens, and how players gain them.
We've had some good ideas on things to unlock/purchase so I'll skip that in this post.
For anyone who hasn't noticed there's a new supergroup badge added with i18 for completing the Cathedral of Pain 100 times. Completing CoP 100 times isn't anything a 1-man sg is likely to achieve, and it is still a hard yet achievable badge for larger sg's that won't happen quickly. It is a lot of CoP trials to run and this is the sort of benchmark that should be used for "sg merits". To me that's reasonable. Any merits earned should still promote something of a time investment for the group to achieve and yet something for a 1-man group that is more or less an extremely distant but unlikely possibility.
So how would sg members get merits? I think they should randomly drop as often as uncommon salvage does with the following differences. Any merits that drop are dropped for the group not for the individual. One person soloing or on a team without sg members would earn 1 merit for a drop but it could exponentially grow depending on the number of sg members on your team. An 8 man team may be able to get them to drop maybe dozens at a time. If you take the avenue of uncommon random drops like this, then it does not require players to modify their normal game play and it takes some of the luster away from farming for sg merits. Farming solo would take a very long time and merit farming with 8 sg members would be rather impractical for most, if not all, sg's. In any case, if that system is easier to implement than adding sg missions to the sg computer than maybe thats a better road to take.
As a side note to a post earlier. If the devs wanted to easily add missions to the sg computer they don't necessarily have to invent new missions. Seems to me they could just take the police band radio missions and apply them to the sg computer. All they would have to do is eliminate the bank mission and add a random enemy and zone appropriate to the level for the team. You aren't really taking anything away from players running normal radio missions to do this. Its another avenue to play the same content, except it would require only sg members on the team to run.
I've got a portfolio prep class to run to so I'll have to make this one brief.
SG merits:
This doesn't really functionally differentiate itself from prestige outside of the conversion rate. Sure, you've got an anemic rate of gain due to the drop chance, but it doesn't necessarily solve the question of the prestige economy being a currency with no sinks. Now I like the idea of an alternate currency with alternate means. Perhaps a better parallel to take a nod from would be the A-Merit system, or even the standard reward merit system. Here you're awarded merits for difficult or time consuming tasks rather than any task at all. Similarly, you could look as prestige as the inf of SGs and SG Merits as the reward merits of SGs.
SG computer Safeguard/Mayhem:
I sort of went here in the original SG tip system, but I think the trick here would be taking those mission types and upping the challenge level. Short of redesigning the whole mission, there are multiple ways you could scale the content. Allow scaling of lower level maps to higher level mobs for instance, or adjust the timer and ambush functions to present a greater challenge in these missions. The point here would be creating SG missions that are quite a bit tougher than your standard safeguard/mayhem.
More later! GTG!
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I've stopped reading this thread right here. You've totally sold me on this idea. I wish to sign the petition to have it implemented!|
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
You're not getting it. People aren't forced to defend their bases at all. Here's an example:
SG1 - Doesn't want to bother defending during the raid window every day. This SG places enough rooms to support ten hirelings, and wires up a secure plot with plenty of firepower. All of this is purchased with player gained prestige, while leaving the base operations level at zero. When they're happy with their setup, they go ahead and set ops to 1. Every day during their window, the base may be raided, but it doesn't matter if they're around or not because they've prepared the base and its defenses to handle light raids that come with such a low operations level. They might be on one day, get the raid sirens, and laugh because they know that the handful of freakshow raiding their base are being instantly and mercilessly cut down by their ten tons of autocannons and highly trained base defense NPCs. As time goes on, this SG gains rewards at a slower rate, but their gains are virtually hands free, slowly upgrading the defenses and personnel and gradually increasing ops levels to match. SG2 - Likes defending, prefers to spend time in the base. This SG places a single quarters room, enough to house two hirelings, and no defenses. They go ahead and set ops to 1. This base has not been prepared to adequately deal with threats, and thus they'll need to be around to defend it each day. SG2 didn't require nearly as much time farming prestige for setting up defenses because they've decided they'd rather get the ops rewards now and defend it themselves than wait to wire up ten tons of technology. As time goes on, this SG ratchets up ops as soon as they have enough NPCs to do it, and is faced with more difficult raids because of it. They're getting rewards at an increased rate because rather than being careful, they're relying on the players in the SG to handle the base defenses. SG3 - Likes defending, but only wants to do it on weekends when people are sure to be around. This SG sets up like SG2, but sets ops to zero during the week. Each friday, the guy in charge increases the ops level, and for the next two days the players defend the base like SG2 does all week. Sunday night, he sets ops back to zero so they don't have to worry about raids during the week. The point here is that, like the AE or market, the SG chooses its own level of involvement. It can choose to use the system without ever showing up to defend its own base, or it can choose to use the system and defend every time there's a raid, or anywhere in between. The level of reward is directly proportional to the level of risk. The SG that chooses to risk more is rewarded more. You get it? You're treating raids like a mission. In the proposed system they're not a mission. You don't get rewarded for defending the base. You get rewarded for having the base do things for you. The tradeoff is that the more stuff the base does for you, the harder it is to defend. YOU choose how much stuff you want the base to do for you, and thus YOU determine if 2000 prestige a day without ever having to worry about being around for raids is a better deal than 20000 prestige a day with the tradeoff that you might have to actually get involved with the raids. |
This would totally bring in a new element to the game. It's a mini-game for Super Groups, played like Tropico, Evil Genius or Dungeon Keeper.
You sir, are a genius. ++rep!
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No thank you. I want to play CoH because it is like CoH... ie, NOT like other micromanaging games.|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
It's a mini-game for Super Groups, played like Tropico, Evil Genius or Dungeon Keeper.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I've stopped reading this thread right here.
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.There are better ideas, in my opinion.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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I'm sorry, exactly where in this entire proposal is it even implied that anyone would be forced to participate in it? I'm certain it would be a trivial thing to have it so that anyone who didn't want to bother with it wouldn't have to. It'd only be for people who'd want to be able to do things like earn prestige at a slow rate while they were offline.|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
No thank you. I want to play CoH because it is like CoH... ie, NOT like other micromanaging games.
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So please give me a real reason why you're against adding content to the game, instead of "I don't like it!" If we're gonna go that way, we should be asking the devs to remove all elements of PvP in this game. Or the markets. Or the booster packs. There are plenty of people who'd whined about all of those things.
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Well actually, since I made that post to which you responded, I have read the rest of the thread.|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
You really should have kept reading.
.There are better ideas, in my opinion. |
Believe it or not, my opinion is not the same as yours. Like, seriously!
Welcome to the discussion Coyote! Don't be so hard on Kat. Everyone's got a right to their opinion, and I'm glad you like the hireling idea. I'll admit that I like it, but it hasn't been very popular with a lot of people so it hasn't sparked much discussion.
Just don't start a flamewar over it, and I'm sure you can agree to disagree.
Any thoughts on anything else you've read in the thread, or problems with that system?
How about developing an NPC raid event system?
How about letting groups of opposing moralities declare an official rivalry?
How can we tie bases and supergroups in to other PvE content?
How can we tie bases and supergroups in to other PvP content?
How about any number of other fantastic (non decorative) suggestions?
Training (Danger) Room for Bases
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=242816
Add a Unique AE Interface for SG/VG Bases
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=242829
In regards to the cross-utilizaton of both AE and Arena to these two suggestions, although I am not a programmer, it seems easier to use existing game tech (due to the diminished focus on bases by devs) than create new content for said bases.
Using existing in-game mechanics and maybe tweaking what we have and applying it to the bases might be a stepping stone to get some activity back in the bases, and maybe a little more attention by the devs to our needs.
I know there are many more incredible suggestions and ideas out here in the forums in terms of ideas and suggestions for the bases, but maybe a bit of (what I deem) easier-to-make additional ("unique") functionality might help the base/SG/VG community.
NEW ALLIED FIGHTERS ISSUE #2