It's all about me, me, me!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-10-18 06:27 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well, that would be kinda hard when there isn't any good to find |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
We can't possibly just topple the Dictator himself and leave all the good he actually accomplished in place.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You mean the Sonic barriers, hospitals, roads, libraries, internet, and basically everything built since the world was more or less destroyed by the Hamidon are all evil?!|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, that would be kinda hard when there isn't any good to find
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Wow you're twisted.
-Rachel-
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It's possible to be a hero, to struggle to do the right thing and the best thing for the most people, and still be wrong. Being wrong isn't evil; what's evil is refusing to correct when given additional information.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
the two heroes Apex and Tin Mage
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How gradual would the reforms be in a dictatorship that's run by an immortal with a messiah-complex who can survive a direct hit from a nuke and is supported by legions of superpowered stormtroopers and huge war robots, has an utterly loyal army of clone super-soldiers made from his own DNA, and a population brainwashed to support him?|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
A gradual reform potentially allows for a transition to a more free society without the hardship and upheaval inherent in a violent insurrection.
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It's quite possible that he might fancy his chances of keeping things just the way they are, and not really see the need for reforms or any kind of compromise when he's got that much firepower to back him up.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Nope, none of those are good. Because anything related to or the product of Cole's rule, no matter how distant, is inherently EEEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIIL~!|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
You mean the Sonic barriers, hospitals, roads, libraries, internet, and basically everything built since the world was more or less destroyed by the Hamidon are all evil?!
Wow you're twisted. -Rachel- |
Edit:
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
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Not in a comicbook superhero game |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
It's possible to be a hero, to struggle to do the right thing and the best thing for the most people, and still be wrong.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Unfortunately for you, Praetoria and all the storylines connected to Praetoria do not exist in a Silver Age comic book, so black-and-white, heroes-are-always-right morality don't apply to them.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not in a comicbook superhero game
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So murdering the civilians who work in the city he built is the right answer?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
How gradual would the reforms be in a dictatorship that's run by an immortal with a messiah-complex who can survive a direct hit from a nuke and is supported by legions of superpowered stormtroopers and huge war robots, has an utterly loyal army of clone super-soldiers made from his own DNA, and a population brainwashed to support him?
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Kill him. Kill his Praetors. Then get killed by the loyalist "Cole Lovers" who are drugged and brainwashed as a martyr, knowing what you've done is right.
A day of mourning every year and a democracy already in place can be the legacy. But burning down hospitals and empowering psycopaths to murder civilians... That's just wrong.
Do what's right or GTFO and stop claiming to be a hero. You're just as bad as Cole in almost every way, you just like to wrap yourself with an American Flag and pretend it stands for you.
-Rachel-
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I think by the Silver Age the black and white morality was kind of teetering on the edge of oblivion. Spider Man and Marvel comics, in general, mark the Silver Age start for me, and having a main character who is fallible and makes the wrong choice sometimes is the hallmark of the Silver Age.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Unfortunately for you, Praetoria and all the storylines connected to Praetoria do not exist in a Silver Age comic book, so black-and-white, heroes-are-always-right morality don't apply to them.
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The Golden Age heroes of DC are the ones I think of when I think of the "Black and White" morality. The bad guy was always moustache-twirling and the good guys all wore primary colors.
-Rachel-
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But Paragon City does |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Unfortunately for you, Praetoria and all the storylines connected to Praetoria do not exist in a Silver Age comic book, so black-and-white, heroes-are-always-right morality don't apply to them.
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And insane supervillains and their mindless thugs have always been popular in Silver Age comicbooks, so Tyrant and his stormtroopers fit right in.
Plus, CoH has quite a bit of Golden Age stuff in it too
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Do you regret starting this thread yet, Sam?
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You're assuming that I support that viewpoint. I don't, I think he needs to get whacked down, and hard. However, I also believe that it is possible (especially for someone who doesn't have the omniscient viewpoint that we as players have) to honestly believe that reform is possible and work towards that end and that such a person would be a "good guy".|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
How gradual would the reforms be in a dictatorship that's run by an immortal with a messiah-complex who can survive a direct hit from a nuke and is supported by legions of superpowered stormtroopers and huge war robots, has an utterly loyal army of clone super-soldiers made from his own DNA, and a population brainwashed to support him?
It's quite possible that he might fancy his chances of keeping things just the way they are, and not really see the need for reforms or any kind of compromise when he's got that much firepower to back him up. |
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Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater
Nope, none of those are good. Because anything related to or the product of Cole's rule, no matter how distant, is inherently EEEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIIL~!
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Any casualties in the dimensional war are Tyrant's fault - he brought civil war to his own world through his refusal to give the people their freedom, and now he's trying to take away the freedom of another world too.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
So murdering the civilians who work in the city he built is the right answer?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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They'd have to be crushingly dumb to still beleive that by the time they reached 20 and saw the truth about Tyrant and his disgusting system.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
However, I also believe that it is possible (especially for someone who doesn't have the omniscient viewpoint that we as players have) to honestly believe that reform is possible and work towards that end and that such a person would be a "good guy".
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So... by that logic we should just toss a few nukes through the portal and call it a day, right? After all it'll end the threat he represents, the casualties caused will be his fault, and the spirits of the Praetorian citizens can rest happily knowing that they might be dead but they are free.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Any casualties in the dimensional war are Tyrant's fault - he brought civil war to his own world through his refusal to give the people their freedom, and now he's trying to take away the freedom of another world too.
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There's a reason that the general Rules of War (and the Just War theorem) discourage attacks on civilians. If you massacre civilians in the name of defeating Cole you're no better than he is.
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Paragon City is in the "Modern Age" of comics, not the Silver Age. There are some Silver age elements, Golden Age elements, and Iron Age elements of gritty realism.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But Paragon City does
And insane supervillains and their mindless thugs have always been popular in Silver Age comicbooks, so Tyrant and his stormtroopers fit right in. Plus, CoH has quite a bit of Golden Age stuff in it too |
Black and White isn't the rule, otherwise Vigilante and Rogue alignments wouldn't exist. Your argument is, as usual, invalid.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Any casualties in the dimensional war are Tyrant's fault - he brought civil war to his own world through his refusal to give the people their freedom, and now he's trying to take away the freedom of another world too.
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Again, you're blaming the cop because the criminal shot through a window and killed some girl when the criminal was shooting at the cop. the Resistance decided to take those actions, they can say "It's not my Fault!" but the girl is still dead, and you've got the gun that killed her.
-Rachel-
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No - it's our duty to set the people of Praetoria free as well as protect Primal Earth, so we need to dismantle the dictatorship with as few civilian casualties as possible.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So... by that logic we should just toss a few nukes through the portal and call it a day, right? After all it'll end the threat he represents, the casualties caused will be his fault, and the spirits of the Praetorian citizens can rest happily knowing that they might be dead but they are free.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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He should know by now that certain topics just...well....you get what we have here. |
Originally Posted by Jetpack
Do you regret starting this thread yet, Sam?
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I see the thread title and one particular poster and it all makes sense.
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Yes he did - he took away the people's liberty - he and his followers can't have been that stupid that they'd think they could do that and not have an uprising on theri hands.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
He didn't bring Civil War
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| he brought peace and prosperity. |
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| People who were under the yoke and couldn't take the weight chose civil war and murder, not Cole. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No - it's our duty to set the people of Praetoria free as well as protect Primal Earth, so we need to dismantle the dictatorship with as few civilian casualties as possible.
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Ideological Imperialism. It's actually fairly common. Usually among democracies and religions. "Follow my Rules or you are evil! Do as I say, not as I do! Everyone must adhere to -my- guidelines and morality and people who don't are heathens/morons/terrorists/etc!"|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
You really don't see the disconnect between these two statements do you? *boggle*.
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There are some things that Democracy did and does very well, and some things that Democracy did and does very badly.
-Rachel-
Sorry for the OT post, but between the thread title and OP...
This song got stuck in my head again.
And as a side note, what is it w/players being baited by GG and her views on Praetoria? Sheesh...
And now back to the Derailed discussion.
Thank you for the time...
@Travlr (Main) / @Tymers Realm (Test) 
On the topic of it's all about me, me, me!
The Power arcs are all about Ambition with a capitol A. This is why I equate the Power faction with the Villain faction. All of the Villain alignment tip missions that I have done have been about acquiring power, or reputation.
Despite that opinion, the Power arcs are wonderfully liberating. The dialogs with the NPCs are cynical, self serving and ambitious, while pretending to the public to be virtuous. But the character could be genuinely good, pretending to be cynical and ambitious, pretending to be virtuous.
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To me most of the alignment tip missions and the Praetorian story arcs have similar themes. This opinion has nothing to do with good, evil, law or chaos. It is built on the concept of mission themes within this game only.
Villain and Power missions have a common theme of Ambition.
Hero and Warden missions have a common theme of Compassion. Rescuing or protecting innocents, even if the guilty go free.
Vigilante and Crusader missions have a common them of Obsession. Achieving a goal, justice or vengeance, without any concern if innocents are injured.
Rogue and Responsibility arcs are not as easy to link thematically. The best that I can come up with here is that both are about Self-Interest. But that is a weak argument. I really just link these because they are what I have left.
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It always ends up in the same thread. That's the really irritating part. It started out interesting.
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
He should know by now that certain topics just...well....you get what we have here.
I see the thread title and one particular poster and it all makes sense. |
Again, it's possible to understand a position without automatically agreeing with it. To assume that those who do not agree with you fail to do so because they cannot truly understand your perspective is the hubris at the heart of many of the greatest villains in history, both fictional and real.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA