Reviving Virtue's Tradition of RPvP (Open discussion)

I've always been impressed by the level of dedication CoH RPers (especially on Virtue) have to their characters-- concepting, costuming, theme, background, and the actual act of roleplaying. A lot of creativity is circulating around in explaining the functions of a toon's in-game powers, costume parts, archetype, origin, etc. But it's always baffled me how, with such dedication to characters, there is this tendency to disregard or overlook their character's actual in-game performance, especially when it comes to RPing violent conflict.

This is even more ironic (and downright humorous) when it comes to those predatorious, strong-armed characters -- you know the type; the ones who roll the biggest, baddest, SS/Inv br00t muthaflesher to ever set foot on the Isles, the kind who pounds down bank vaults with his pinky just before breakfast, defecates Longbow after lunch with his giant tentacles of doom, tortures scantly clad heroines for dinner with a rusty hacksaw, and sacrifices cute cuddly kittens to the ancient Egyptian blood god just before bedtime -- all at level 14. Sure, it sounds great on paper, but when you're challenging my Purple-PvP IO'd out level 50 psychokinetic Defender to a duel because he looked at your girlfriend the wrong way when she was trying out the new Omega pieces at the tailor's, then insist on textfighting it out -- wherein he grinds my toon's body into the pavement with his super strong fingers, then lunges his tentacles of doom at me, while his level 4 Mind/Psi succubus-themed Dominator girlfriend invokes satanic ritual and sucks the soul out of my head--, it really makes me wonder about a little thing I like to call RP concept substantiation. Basically, backing up what you claim about your character. Someone who takes the time out leveling, slotting, and figuring out a build for a character, as well as coming up with a creative concept, background, and power explaination, deserve credibility and weight in RP, even if it's not being taken to the arena.

Even so, not being able to take your badass awesome toon into the arena after hurling a slew of insults and threats at my character is... Not to sound like an elitist, but quite frankly, weak.

Now, I'm not saying that being able to RPvP makes you a good, or even a creative RPer, but it is an indication of dedication to your toon, and your willingness to substantiate what you claim about how awesome s/he is in a fight. (And that you're not just flipping through your bimonthly urge to RP your demon alt, which you'll get bored of and delete again in 3 days.) And it's also an RP option that many RPers (or PvPers who want to roleplay) would love to participate in more often. I am certain that I'm not alone in wanting to proliferate RPvP activities-- both for its own sake, and as an option for textfighting.

Excuse my old school nostalgia, but Virtue historically had a rich, strong, and all around fun RPvP community. I'm not a Virtue "native", but I always loved logging on here for RPvP back in the day. A lot of perfectly respectible build creativity, integrity and viability non-FOTMs that were PvPable, among their rich concepts intertwined with their powers. It wasen't about winning or losing, nor were people ashamed of losing, or gloated overweeningly (at least not OOCly) following a victory: it was about contributing to the developement of storyline, character growth, and most importantly, fun. The Shinsengumi, the Sadistic Seven, the Frontline, the Dread Aces, X-Patriots, etc. PvPing in zones, arena, base raids, etc via organized, communally-contributed story-driven arcs. Kadekawa was amazingly good at keeping everyone interested, and even grabbing RP-inclined PvPers like myself from other servers to participate in the events. These were some of my fondest memories on CoH. It actually makes me wish I spent more time RPvPing on Virtue, than just vanilla PvP.

But there's a lot of stigmatism these days among RPers when it comes to PvP, that didn't quite exist in the old RPvP bracket. Despite it being easier for many of the Virtue-flavored RP sets to PvP, thanks to the i13 changes, there are even less RPers PvPing. Notwithstanding, there is a general general lack of interest among RPers to PvP and RPvP) these days. Why? Many of us in PvPEC are wondering why, given how attached RPers are to their toons, they don't make their performance in PvP (or, oftentimes, PvE) a priorty.

So, I open the floor up to the players of Virtue, and address this discussion to non-PvPing RPers, RPvPers, and PvPers who are flirting with the idea of RPing. I want to hear your opinions on this issue of Virtue's dying RPvP tradition. Some questions myself and PvPEC are wondering:

Why isn't there much of an interest in RPvP these days? Why aren't you personally interested in RPvP? What can be done to make RPvP more appealing? What sorts of RPvP-ish events may people be interested in? What is your attitude toward settling RP conflicts via RPvP? What do people think about organizing RP fight nights, tournaments, and story arcs that involve RPvP?

All of your opinions are of interest to me. I don't care if you're the badassest hardcorest RPvPer out there, or if your a 6.6 year vet with only one 50 who spends your whole time RPing -- this discussion is directed to everyone.

This thread is going to be /awesome/.

In truth I think you have some really salient points. I am a pretty hardcore RPer and I absolutely hate the lameness of text fighting. I sometimes wax nostalgic for the old skool RPvP we used to have in the open PvP zones myself.

Conversely...the Ro Sham Bo of arena dueling is equally tedious to me.

I used to spend a lot of time zipping around in the old days on a Mind/Eng Dominator and a Dark/Elec Defender in Siren's Call and I had a blast doing it, but those times are gone. Sadly I don't have the time, energy or inclination to chase after purple set IOs all the time to remain competitive with the min/maxers.

I mostly just feel that without any sort of, I dunno...GM, to referee PvP combat that everything comes down to the engine deciding what happens and that is...meh. I quit playing competitive MtG a few years back for the same reason. Everything comes down to a few builds that dominate everything else. This makes PvP have a very high barrier to competitive entry for a lot of folks, including me sadly. I have a career and other commitments outside the game that have to be dealt with, which reduces the time I have to practice, farm and all the other stuff required to be competitive.

So while I agree with you that Mr. Lvl 14 guy is kind of a dork for picking a fight with the level 50, I just...I don't see arena-based PvP as a really satisfactory solution to that kind of scenario. Then again, most of my lower level toons aren't going around picking fights with the big kids.

YMMV

Also, hi...I posted on the Interwebs

The problem is that good PvE builds and good PvP builds are so vastly different. I can talk about my IO'd out Defender that can solo a million AVs at once, but then I'll lose every time to a blaster with thirty travel powers and two attacks.

I also don't think that a character of mine should be completely unable to stand up to your awesomely built purpled out PvP character simply because I don't have billions of inf to spend on enhancements.

I'd say because they totally changed PvP, and you have to dual build for some toons, and lots of other reasons.

Let's look at it, you have that purple-pvp IOed out toon. Now let me ask you, how does it handle in PvE? Probably not as well (this is a guess on my part...so maybe you do handle very well.).

Now from an RP perspective, how does it make since, that a toon that solo's AVs, gets their butt handed to them by a toon that can't handle them at all?

How does that Supergirl inspired concept, get their butt handed to them by the "i'm just a normal human with a sword, and really weak, who has to be careful because one wrong punch to the face can kill me, because I made a RP concept so weak to seem more RP friendly" in a PvP match, because the "weak RP concept" has the better PvP power sets?

Also, there are the I came to RP not work out the best mechanically better toon, people.

Not to mention, people take concept powers that subtract from making a PvP viable toon, but can still be made into a PvE powerhouse.

Face it, one of the common things to do in PvP toon is take Super Speed and Super Jump. Think this is something that a lot of concepts would do? Especially when Super Jump is probably one of the least used travel styles in the genre?

Super speed isn't that much more common.

Fly and something akin to Ninja Run mobility is more common.

Let's not forget some of the people in PvP zones are just plain rude. And some players can't handle it.

I took my stalker into a PvP zone for the first time (knowing it wasn't setup for PvP), and got messages like "go RP, your build sucks" now of course I knew my build sucked for PvP.

For one, I didn't fit in the concealment on a stalker, so I was seen easily... While I just laughed it off, other players are going to take it harder (don't know why, don't ask me). And if they've experienced that enough, why would they want to take any RP to a PvP match?

Though in the end, I'd say a lot of it has to do with the changes to PvP. If it kept more inline with PvE, I think it would go over better for RPers, except for defense based toons, who can't handle having the same weakness in PvP (+to hit) that they do in PvE (+to hit). Seeing as how, anyone who PvP tends to have those +to hit powers, so those defense based toons will feel it a lot more often.

And even then, that's only a bit of it. Population of Virtue is so diverse, there are different ideas that go with what is what, and really, it's just best to stick with like minded individuals, which of course, by the sound of your post, means you go to the D, which is filled with so many different versions of what people consider okay in RP, that wanting to have every fight end up in a PvP match just isn't going to happen, whether the people involved mind losing and/or winning at all.

But isn't that to be expected? Look at what you've seen in RP. That Empath toon that could heal you constantly before, all of a sudden had her powers weakened on you, because it didn't fit with your storyline of "i'm injured and need time to heal, and your healing powers would ruin my story now". (*note the use of you was in general and not pointed at you).

Long story short...no matter how you or anyone else RP, it's not going to fit in with a vast majority of how others RP! It's to be expected when there are no set rules to the system like there is with a Pen and Paper RP. And your never going to agree on the rules with a majority of the other players.

So, when you run into those who don't see eye to eye with you on how to RP, best bet is to just walk away.

I make PVE builds and PVP with them. 90% of the time I get wrecked -shrug-. But I haven't done any RP-PVP because it irks me that people do PVP builds while being a RPer. I dunno, just a little insult to injury in some fashion.

But I don't mind PVP, just that little bit above I mentioned. If I could make a decent PVP build within my RP characters, then meh. But I do want more RPvP with good storyline and stuff, that'd make it interesting and have you actually think things through on how your character reacts.

EX: I don't pick fights with any sets that will chew through my defense and accuracy like a bullet through flesh. Mostly Dark Miasma.

I do wish there were more RPvP events, as I enjoy both quite a bit.

DJ Shecky from The CAPE radio held (still holds?) monthly RPvP events that were a blast. Lots of people would show up, party, and throw down. No one cared about winning, losing, or how their builds measured up. I brought my PB to the first event, which is a rarity since you never see khelds in the zones. The idea was to have fun, and from what I saw the majority of people did.

I think a lot of the reluctance to RPvP comes from mindset. People do put a lot of time into their characters and become quite attatched. They don't want to enter a PvP situation and see their beloved characters beaten.

RP wise, my character is a powerful mage. She saves the entire world and goes up against gods on a regular basis.

Mechanics wise, she's level 50, she's IOed out, even has some purples, but there's only so much I can do to counteract the fact she is Storm/Elec, and I just don't have the reflexes to do 1-on-1 PvP.

I don't go looking for fights at the D. She's there to have fun, not fight and arrest bad guys, and it's out of her jurisdiction anyway. If someone attacks her I most often RP that the blow lands, but DJ Zero's reality-altering prevents any damage.

I don't expect you to acknowledge my character's power either IC or OOC, but unless we agreed on using a PvP match as part of a plotline, I will just avoid having a fight with you. Because I don't see why I need to have my character's unsuitability for PvP rubbed in my face. Go ahead and call me and/or my character a coward if you like.

Another reason people may be against it, is some of those who RPvP in arena, seem to turn off the temp power usage (and may even say no inspiration usage).

Now, while I've been okay with the no inspiration usage. I know I hate it when I have no access to my toons Ninja run, because the other person turns off temp power usage in the arena (mind you this is with me not minding the losing part, and go into zones to PvP with strictly PvE oriented builds...that said, I've never had zone pvp be IC at all).

Personally, I figure it's always been a case of concept over functionality.

I recall back in ye olden days when an ice/cold corruptor was actually fairly decent in pvp, I actually had jump kick instead of combat jumping.

Edit: Also, my fortunata has flight and does not have hasten due to it not suiting the character. (Darn flaming hands.) This makes her slow in chasing when it comes to pvp. To be clear, the slowness in chasing is due to flight, not the hasten. The hasten just prevents her from getting perma-mindlink to counteract the reduced defense that she receives for entering the pvp zone.

Also, I'd like to blame the changes back in I13 for making things unneccessarily complicated and putting the boot not just to rpvp but regular pvp as well.

BrandX, you've made some good points which everyone has also brought up mentioned. So this is also indirectly a response to everyone with similar responses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandX Let's look at it, you have that purple-pvp IOed out toon. Now let me ask you, how does it handle in PvE? Probably not as well (this is a guess on my part...so maybe you do handle very well.). Now from an RP perspective, how does it make since, that a toon that solo's AVs, gets their butt handed to them by a toon that can't handle them at all? How does that Supergirl inspired concept, get their butt handed to them by the "i'm just a normal human with a sword, and really weak, who has to be careful because one wrong punch to the face can kill me, because I made a RP concept so weak to seem more RP friendly" in a PvP match, because the "weak RP concept" has the better PvP power sets?

Almost all of my toons are slotted exclusively for PvP. Their PvE performance is still excellent, though admittedly not as effective as they could be, since their focus is single-target rather than AoE, and there's less of an emphasis for high recharge these days in PvP. (Also that Defender is Cold/Sonic... If I made a PvE version for him, it wouldn't look a heck of a lot different). The issue at that point is more play style in PvE. There aren't too many builds that excel in PvP which under-perform in PvE -- it's usually the other way around. You're right to say that PvP builds aren't optimized for PvE, but they are all still very effective.

Getting to the RP part of that, I would be inclined to take the performance of thematically weaker/but PvP superior "in spirit." Perhaps the sword, unbeknowest to its user, uses an alloy that is a weakness to said Supergirl? But it would really vary depending on the concept. I would actually demand at that point that the thematically weaker toon come up with a stronger concept as to why they were able to defeat your toon, or you could use that as an RP hook to explain that there something much deeper to their powers/talents?

Being able to solo AV's, but do poorly against other players is also be something taken in spirit and could be explained in a similar way-- Maybe your character came better prepared to the fight against the AV -- Which if you notice, contacts for AV missions tend to give you clues and souviners which are supposed to help your character survive in and defeat the AV. Similarly, how would you ICly explain being able to solo an AV at +0, and getting your *** handed to you at +4? You would take difficulty "in spirit", right?

But in all honesty, you are right. If your RP style includes RPvP, you will probably have to adjust your build for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandX Also, there are the I came to RP not work out the best mechanically better toon, people. <...> It's to be expected when there are no set rules to the system like there is with a Pen and Paper RP. And your never going to agree on the rules with a majority of the other players.

You're right that there will are always be disagreements on rules, and that people will ultimately choose to RP however they want. However, I've always RP'd game mechanics as perfectly legitimate RP rules, insofar as them being governing laws of nature for the dimension, subject to the delicate flow of cosmological forces and whims of super-dimensional beings that maintain universe CoX takes place in. And why not? This is a superpowered universe where gods and mortals coexist. Conventional battle tactics we see in real-life don't quite apply in CoH's universe. A guy wielding dual pistols is not going to take down an Invulnerability tanker, unless the latter is clumsy -- in which case, you would RP it as exactly that, clumsiness, and/or that the DP user is using special rounds.

CoX canon does this too when they try to explain the uniformity of powers across origins, and when they try to warn you of enemies you'd be vulnerable to (like psychics and mezzers usually). You might object and say "But how can a psychic blaster beat my purely robotic, artificial-intelligence MM?" Again, you would take it in spirit. Psychics easily translates to psychokinesis, which includes the manipulation of physical objects using mind alone, so each psychic blast can be something that rends away at the wiring, or disrupts the flow of electrical signals.

But ultimately you're right, it's about consent to RP rules, so it doesn't degenerate into an e-peen waggling fest under the guise of RP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandX Face it, one of the common things to do in PvP toon is take Super Speed and Super Jump. Think this is something that a lot of concepts would do? Especially when Super Jump is probably one of the least used travel styles in the genre? Super speed isn't that much more common. Fly and something akin to Ninja Run mobility is more common.

I've fought some badass fliers before. It's not FOTM, but that doesn't make it less deadly. It takes a lot practice to get flight to work for PvP, but if you can do it, you're potentially more dangerous than an SS/SJer. CF. @Annihilius' Ice/Rad flier. The kinds of travel powers you take in PvP aren't as much of an issue as how to use and slot them optimally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandX Let's not forget some of the people in PvP zones are just plain rude. And some players can't handle it. I took my stalker into a PvP zone for the first time (knowing it wasn't setup for PvP), and got messages like "go RP, your build sucks" now of course I knew my build sucked for PvP.

Yeah no argument there. Tons of trollers/griefers/haters/elitists in the PvP community, as much as PvPEC tries to discourage it in official events. In our Fight Nights, Smallzies and I have zero tolerance toward that kind of behaviour. Zones are unmandated, though.

Also, that's not really RPvP per se, but I'm sure it contributes to warding off RPers from wanting to PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandX Though in the end, I'd say a lot of it has to do with the changes to PvP. If it kept more inline with PvE, I think it would go over better for RPers, except for defense based toons, who can't handle having the same weakness in PvP (+to hit) that they do in PvE (+to hit). Seeing as how, anyone who PvP tends to have those +to hit powers, so those defense based toons will feel it a lot more often.

There are work-arounds defensive sets use these days, but you're also right that post-i12 PvP have reduced the number of power sets you can use to excel in PvP. Also, turning the game into two entirely different words mechanically, I agree with you there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandX And even then, that's only a bit of it. Population of Virtue is so diverse, there are different ideas that go with what is what, and really, it's just best to stick with like minded individuals, which of course, by the sound of your post, means you go to the D, which is filled with so many different versions of what people consider okay in RP, that wanting to have every fight end up in a PvP match just isn't going to happen, whether the people involved mind losing and/or winning at all.

Actually, no. My emphasis was on actual broadly appealed RPvP events, not PvP challenges in the D.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandX But isn't that to be expected? Look at what you've seen in RP. That Empath toon that could heal you constantly before, all of a sudden had her powers weakened on you, because it didn't fit with your storyline of "i'm injured and need time to heal, and your healing powers would ruin my story now". (*note the use of you was in general and not pointed at you).

This is a little unclear. Can you re-iterate/rephrase this please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandX Another reason people may be against it, is some of those who RPvP in arena, seem to turn off the temp power usage (and may even say no inspiration usage). Now, while I've been okay with the no inspiration usage. I know I hate it when I have no access to my toons Ninja run, because the other person turns off temp power usage in the arena (mind you this is with me not minding the losing part, and go into zones to PvP with strictly PvE oriented builds...that said, I've never had zone pvp be IC at all).

I'm a big stickler on using the Test Server standard arena rules: No Heal Decay, No Travel Suppression, Small inspirations only, Diminishing Returns on, temp powers usually off, but it depends on the situation... RP wise I would probabley be inclined to keep that on, especially when you have a lot of people using Ninja run or secondary mutation concept-wise. PvP wise, these are the agreed on standard, otherwise everyone would just bring Thermals and Dark/Colds to the match.

Inspirations are controversial. They're often seen as "cheats", or things people with weak builds use. Test PvPers insist on it being on (myself included) because inspiration management is a huge part of PvP skill... but a lot of the tru warr1rz crowd and RPvPers want it off. From a purely mechanical standpoint, again, if there are no inspirations, it'll just be everyone bringing Thermals and Dark/Colds, and it'll end up being one Faceroller vs. another. I've always RP'd inspirations as -actual- inspirations, and/or gear or other temporary enhancements, like what they're meant to be in the canon. On Apophasis my main, I RP them as performance-enhancing drugs which tune his brain to give him a temporarily link with the Ether.

I prefer RPvP over any textfighting myself, but the changes have done too much. My Ice-Ice Blaster was great in PvP, even un-Io'd out, but thanks to the changes the slow sdon't do anything. I work my way around the poor chnges, and I still love my characters and prefer to settle things in PvP thank in Textfighting.

I'd love to have an organization or several that focuses on PvP, though I wish the old PvP were back.

Edit: I hate Diminishing Returns, it ruined PvP a lot for me... Just my opinion, irregardless of RPing.

Someone asked me to post here and I will, virtue has never had an active rp pvp community, it had pvp rp events that were run by pvpers. Thats it. The rp playing base on virtue of whoever attended those events is almost all gone. The remaining player base on virtue dosen't rppvp because our game is built up in cliques with different sg's demanding all the other sg's realize how awesome they are. People are too used to doing rp plots were mary su generic characters win everything, because of this most rpers are way too afraid to lose.

The complaints about the new system are moot at this point, it's been almost two years since i13 was launched people have had that long to prepare new builds and try pvping again. In a game known for it's quick leveling it's a joke for anyone to complain they don't have the build to pvp or their characters concept dosen't fit. Roll a new toon if you want to pvp and get a different concept. Yes pvp has changed, get over it.

Too sleepy to read the whole thing now, but based on the first couple of lines of your post I'd say you ran into godmodding morons. :P

I think when a roleplayer has a choice between either pvp'ing or roleplaying, they'll usually choose roleplaying.

The same applies to the choice between rpvping or roleplaying.

And I'll have to agree with Malech here regarding the rpvp community. I don't recall there ever being such a thing. I know there were a couple of rp themed open zone pvp events, and pvp events that weren't aimed directly at regular pvp'ers, but an rpvp community? Doesn't sound familiar.

If you want to make a PvP toon to represent an existing character, there are many cases where you can change the colors of a PvP character's powers so they mimic the appearance of the original. Just a thought.

The mechanics don't support the genre which inspired it.

If you want to enjoy RPvP, you basically have two options.

1) Play a powerful concept that's true to the mythology of the print genre - most likely some sort of flying, punching supertank. Embrace that they will suck in PvP and do it anyway. Play with a healthy dose of humility and pluck.

or

2) Look at the powersets that are most successful in PvP and rework your idea of the genre around them. Make those sets workable as a character concept, and swallow your RP dignity a bit. Paragon City's Superman is some stealthy, fire flinging, regenerating, super speedy nutter

Oh, and hello those people who remember me. I'm back!

Hour womaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!