Why A Blaster?


Adelie

 

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FWIW if anyone really wants to back up their belief that blasters are fine then get someone to taunt a pylon, I can guarantee you won't beat the best scrapper times, let alone get anywhere near the times Frosticus has posted with MM's and trollers. The latter of which is bordering on ludicrous.

Yes blasters can deal out some good aoe even if we accept that they aren't near the best st damage dealers (though they should be hands down). But they aren't near the best aoe damage dealers either or else they would be used as farmers more often because farmers take the easy mobs and slaughter them en masse, which is what people are saying blasters excel at...

You do know, Frosticus was the one to point out that fire/elec blasters have the higher DPS numbers (vs pylons) then even the highest scrapper build? Which is where he got the idea for a fire/fire/fire dom, and managed to squeeze that DPS up to 450 (no really, those are real numbers here guys)


 

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Though some might call it cherrypicking sets again, here's a lil story from today.

Pulled out my rad/fire blaster, she's just slotted with 25 or 30 IO's and no sets. Was just gonna solo but got invited to a synapse TF, started with 8, ended with 6, 1:57 time to finish. Team was 1 brute 1 corr 1 stalker 2 defs and me by the end.

Exemped to 20 I still had aim, build up, irradiate, fire sword circle, and combustion as my main aoes. Tier 1 and 2 attacks along with cosmic burst for ST damage.

And this is why I love this blaster build too, as on a team I've got free reign to just go to town, at least 2-3 times a mission i could walk up to the herd the brute made, hit build up, then irradiate for the -def, or just FSC and BOOM! That sound you hear is me flattening an aoe cap worth of dead clockwork. The ST chain was great for smaller fights and helped on bosses, though mostly that was where the stalker was doing the heavy lifting alongside the brute. And the corr dropping freezing rain left and right (ar/storm) was sending the damage tally even higher.

The TF got steamrolled, alongside the time we had a 0 defeat score to boot. But looking back on it, I noticed, hey not a single scrapper, we seem to certainly have no shortage of teamwork and damage piling on though.

So I just can't help but wonder, aside from the bosses which in a couple instances aggroed on me for minor trouble, or more scattered mobs when i had to resort to ST attacks rather then waste end on aoe's for just 1-2, how would the scrapper have outperformed me damage wise overall?

More so as only once when I got ahead and aggroed another group by accident did I even get below half HP the entire TF. So survivability was a total non issue, I had free reign to aoe as much as I wanted. And I had a brute making nice sized packs to just lay waste too.

So for the people who say blasters aren't good enough, too squishy, or don't bring enough damage to a team compared to scrappers, well still waiting to be proven wrong here.

Oh and still having a ball playing them, last time I checked that's still the big reason we play right? =p

Brute: "Man I wish I had burn around now."
Me: "Hey least you got me!"
Brute: "True this."


 

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Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
This is one of the major if not the major disconect between players and Devs.

Devs balance to is it function, do blasters function, yes.

Players view balance as how do you compare with something else.
Do blasters get enough in return for their complete lack of doing anything other than damage, no
Ummm, developers don't balance ATs around each other? Okay... go read some of their posts, articles, and blogs and see if that's the case. You're going to get a very different picture. If you don't want to do that, look at the recent adjustment to Brutes. Castle did that to get them more in line with where they need to be between Scrappers and Tanks. He needs to work on Stalkers, he said, but didn't have time to do so before GR. So that throws this comment way out.

Can the developers and players have different viewpoints on things? Sure. But a big part of that is needing to know what your metric is, which I've hit on in other posts. Blasters were not doing well enough back before their buffs, which is why they got them. If they're somehow not doing well enough now, people have to make a solid case for it.

Pointing out a few cases where another AT does a lot of damage is not necessarily it, either. Other ATs have to do damage as well, and there will be overlap. And if the overlap is too large, that may merit adjustments needed to individual powers or powersets (like Shield Charge), not necessarily a whole adjustment to an entire AT. A Fire^3 Dom sounds like it can pump out the damage, but I don't know that this is on par with other Doms: they're noted for doing okay, but I doubt they're all at that level (my own seems to bear this out).

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
I would guess that most players do not actually have problems with how blasters play. We on the forums may gripe or debate the situation, but I don't see this kind of issue in game. I frequently see people wanting to switch to their blaster or already on blasters when I do searches.

Blasters get a lot in return for their squishiness. The big problem is, you can never get "enough" to compensate the fact that you are squishy (because getting "enough", by its very nature, will make you not squishy). If we premise the AT on the fact that what they do is dangerous and will get them killed without outside help, then we have to accept that they WILL get killed more than other ATs.

That leaves two questions (three really, but two are related):
Do they fall within the acceptable reward generation range?

Are they fun? Do people play them?

They will never be "as good" as any other AT on SOs. As good as you can make some select sets with IOs, there will always be more and more varied sets in other ATs that will be "even more good" with IOs.
CoX let's a variety or ATs work in the same environment, and I think that's a good thing. You're going to have a lot of things be "acceptable" in there, and some things will be better than others unless you're willing to make everything the same, which is bad.

I still think some of the grumpiness we've seen about Dual Pistols is because it wasn't better than everything else, but middle of the road. Because I'm finding it to work as well as the other Blast sets I've tried out.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
I still think some of the grumpiness we've seen about Dual Pistols is because it wasn't better than everything else, but middle of the road. Because I'm finding it to work as well as the other Blast sets I've tried out.
I'd have to agree with that sentiment as well as reiterate that my experience with people's opinions in game and then on the forums are very much not the same. Eeveryone in my SG who has tried it, love sit. Everyone I have every played with that had Dual Pistols and commented on it, has had positive things to say. By contrast, I have seen some of the very same complaints in game as I have on the forums about Kinetic Melee (another set I think is absolutely fantastic).

Even before the buff to HoB, Dual Pistols was very good AoE damage, with respectable single target output on top of that. The buff to HoB makes the set a no-brainer when it comes to dishing out AoE. I don't even think anything of switching between my Fire/Fire and my DP/Fire. Both are extremely good.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
I've not found the game to get significantly harder for Blasters post-30. But it does require being on your toes more. It also helps to take those controls that they put in the Blaster sets.

For example, my Ice/Energy Blaster had a very smooth ride to 50 and this was in the bad old days pre-IOs when ED hurt. But having holds and stuns and KB helped a lot.

By contrast, I have a Fire/Fire who is sitting at 26 because while the damage is frightening, there's nothing to stop mobs from beating the character down.

My last Blaster, a DP/Elec is doing well because like the Ice/Energy there are enough controls to back up the damage to prevent mobs from doing too much damage too quickly.
Soloing with a Blaster does require a little more strategy but it's very doable.

Adding to what EvilGeko said I took my Arch/Ice all the way to 50 and spent almost as much time soloing as I did teaming. When I added my Ice Patch things got a lot easier.. its really hard to hit me when your busy bouncing off the ground. I add Cold Mastery as my APP and picked up another slow (Snow Storm) and a sleep (Flash Freeze) and almost nothing got close enough to bother me while I was driving villains crazy with my rain of arrows. :-D

Another good combination is PSI/MM.. lots of holds and immobs and in the early game (Posi TF and Synapse) you can drive the Clockwork insane. LOL


�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon

 

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Originally Posted by Dragonkat View Post
Though some might call it cherrypicking sets again, here's a lil story from today.

So I just can't help but wonder, aside from the bosses which in a couple instances aggroed on me for minor trouble, or more scattered mobs when i had to resort to ST attacks rather then waste end on aoe's for just 1-2, how would the scrapper have outperformed me damage wise overall?
Mm-mmm! Cherries...goood!

Blasters have always been viable vs. lower level enemies. Exemplared down with more slots and much better enhancements than the opposition is designed for, the right Blaster (your combo can be an offensive powerhouse) can be downright impressive. Especially with ample support and aggro management.

Meanwhile in the adult, highlevel-world other ATs can go to town similarly without support or resorting to expensive defensive IO-set builds picking on select enemy-types. No matter the rhetorics; Blasters do not nearly get enough back for being one-trick ponies in relation to other ATs.

CoX is simply a game with very shoddy power balancing, powerset balancing and archtype balancing most of which have been allowed to go on unaddressed since the conception. So this entire thread is most likely a (not so) little Don Quijote charge against windmills.


 

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I disagree with the premise that all a blaster does is bring damage. That really depends on the blaster, the build and the player.

My NRG/NRG brings mitigation through knockback.

My Elec/Elec can totally drain a +2 mob of endurance, He has three single target holds so he can very quickly take any boss out of a fight.

My Rad/MM has some pretty good debuffs with Irradiate and Neutron Bomb.

Ive got everything.. and IMO nothing is as fun or as satisfying as a well played blaster.


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
You do know, Frosticus was the one to point out that fire/elec blasters have the higher DPS numbers (vs pylons) then even the highest scrapper build? Which is where he got the idea for a fire/fire/fire dom, and managed to squeeze that DPS up to 450 (no really, those are real numbers here guys)
I've talked extensively with him in game and out regarding build possibilities. (not pertinent to the topic, but he is very helpful and friendly in 1 on 1 conversations).

He detailed to me his plans for bane's, fire/fire/mace(or ice) doms (which would have issues topping 400 dps under ideal circumstances fyi), and a build I've never seen mentioned anywhere - sonic/elec/mace as a procc'd out buzzsaw with perma spiderlings, which was quite unique and potentially very damaging.

We also talked about fire/elec upon my request because it is a much lauded build on these forums and has this 'legendary' status as being the king of st damage. He showed me that after everything is said and done the toon burns so much endurance that powersink needs to be spammed every single time it is up. The end result of which hovers closer to 285dps w/ a 95% tohit chance. Worth noting though is that the 'burst' damage potential is off the chart.

When I asked why he hasn't done any blasters he told me they don't do enough damage for it to be worth the time investment. He said he can make builds from almost any other AT that will be tougher and kill hard stuff faster and that there are better minion munchers out there too, so he saw no purpose to pursuing a blaster extensively. Although one of his spreadsheets had an arch/fire blaster that looked like it could blow most aoe toons out of the water.

The best part of it all was that the spreadsheet he sent me had some of the most insane builds imaginable like his one of a kind illusion/cold controller that has crushed everything else recorded on these boards in terms of hard target kill speeds. One time I watched him kill a lvl 53 Statesman (no insp) in about 12 min, which is something that full teams often struggle to do lol. Ya surviving on Illusion is pretty easy, but the damage output was astounding and was arguably the best aspect of the toon. I watched him engage (ie not confuse) and kill lvl 50 Posi, BaB's, and States at the same time (no insp)...That's when I realized how strong that build was because his pets were all over the place fighting different targets and he still dropped them each crazy fast.

Anyway, at the bottom of the spreadsheet were his predictions of what that toon could do with the new mace app: I don't even want to mention it because it was so unbelievable. Lets just say it detailed how he would take down all 18 pylons solo without insp/temps before they started respawning. You can use your imagination to figure out what he wanted to do next.

The spreadsheet had a half dozen or so pages detailing builds that just don't get talked about around here (like the ones mentioned above and some MM breakdowns that go beyond anything I've seen anyone post about in this game. Heck even an illusion/fire dominator was detailed and wow that would be a powerhouse build). All of which have the potential to flat out stomp what conventional wisdom on these boards tell us are 'high' damage dealers. His build ideas were really just on a different level.

* Anyway I figure he probably doesn't mind me sharing this info as we both left the game as GR launched and no end game development in sight. I've been following the forums a bit since then (grabbed a trial cause I was bored the other day) and when we talked about the incarnate levels being spread over multiple issues that will probably take multiple years to be released he said the chances of him ever coming back were slim to none. Oh well, hopefully someone will pick up where he left off and continue min/maxing toons at an unparalleled level.


 

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Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
I disagree with the premise that all a blaster does is bring damage. That really depends on the blaster, the build and the player.

My NRG/NRG brings mitigation through knockback.
Your Energy/Energy brings mitigation...for the opposition as much as for your team I bet. I've very seldomly, if ever, experienced teams that rely on erratic KB for mitigation (unless we talk duos or really small teams with poor balance).

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My Elec/Elec can totally drain a +2 mob of endurance, He has three single target holds so he can very quickly take any boss out of a fight.
The drain option is notoriously unreliable. Which is probably why I haven't seen it done on a team in...a very, very long time. A Stalker, Scrapper or Brute actually kills that boss while you're busy applying holds.

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My Rad/MM has some pretty good debuffs with Irradiate and Neutron Bomb.
Accuracy is hardly an issue in almost all the content.

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Ive got everything.. and IMO nothing is as fun or as satisfying as a well played blaster.
Everything, huh? *laughs*


 

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Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
You do know, Frosticus was the one to point out that fire/elec blasters have the higher DPS numbers (vs pylons) then even the highest scrapper build? Which is where he got the idea for a fire/fire/fire dom, and managed to squeeze that DPS up to 450 (no really, those are real numbers here guys)

The blaster fire electric chain was about 315 dps theoretical, that was the best for outright damage. This was done in a thread on peak damage awhile back. I raised the point in that thread you could conceivably do better on a fire mental using drain psyche to suppress regeneration. What you don't mention is the fire electric chain is a melee chain using melee attacks from /electric. And you fail to mention, the observed number for a dark shield chain is right around 300 that is with siphon life as part of the attack chain and with enough survivability to have the equivalent of a +2x8 spawn attacking while soloing the pylon. Now just how much survivability did the blaster trade to be doing the same damage ?

Now just for fun I ran the numbers for a fire/kin corruptor and got roughly 327 dps before the effects of scourge and -regen are factored in. The chain was blaze->fireblast->flares. Scourge in this case will for the sake of argument add roughly 15% bringing it up to 360 give or take.

Pointing out a fire dom can do even better doesn't help your case


 

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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos View Post
Why stop there? VEATS provide buffs like defenders and can do damage like scrappers with some inherent protection! Who needs defenders and scrappers? Just add more VEATs, the other two ATs are not worth it.


Wait it minute I think i heard this before........

You forgot they also debuff


 

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Originally Posted by Dragonkat View Post
While I don't have time for a full reply before work, I am curious about one thing AF.

I've got a full stable of blasters clean from 1-50 range I can play around with, so I'll pass the ball to you, what is proper parameters in your book? and what qualifies as success or failure? As you never seemed to mention that in your post.

More to come tonight after the work at 11. Stay tuned kids! =p
Lemme see what have I played up to 50 on blasters

Ar/fire
Ar/energy
Ar/mental
Ar/dev

Arch/Mental
Arch/energy
Arch/dev (Much better combo than the Ar/dev. The only real downside is all the s/l damage)
Been meaning to give arch/fire a try. People keep telling me it works. I just don't see it.


Fire/ment
Fire/energy
I would try fire/fire, but having to take rotp and slot it for damage acc and recharge because it will be part of my attack chain is a big negative


Ice/Ice
Ice/ment
Ice/energy

Psi/ment (don't)

What is it these lack ? Well they all still die much more often than other ATs. They do less for teams and they solo slower in the later game than just about anything except may defenders (depending on the defender even that might not be true)


 

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Originally Posted by Seraphael View Post


Everything, huh? *laughs*
Well Ill be honest not quite everything....

Level 50 Nrg/Nrg Blaster
Level 50 WP/SS Tank
Level 50 Ice/Stone Tank
Level 50 Ill/Rad Controller
Level 50 Ice/Cold Controller
Level 50 Sonic/Rad Defender
Level 50 SS/SR Brute
Level 50 DB/Regen Scrapper
Level 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Level 50 Fire/Thermal Controller
Level 50 Earth/Thermal Controller
Level 50 Fire/Mental Blaster
Level 50 Electric/Kin Corruptor
Level 50 Crab Spider
Level 50 Ice/Cold Defender
Level 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Level 50 Shield/SS Tank
Level 50 Rad/Rad Defender
Level 50 Sonic/Dark Corruptor
Level 50 Robot/FF Mastermind
Level 50 Peacebringer (all human form)
Level 50 Grav/Kinetic Controller
Level 50 Fire/Psi Dominator
Level 50 Elec/Shield Brute
Level 50 AR/Nrg Blaster
Level 50 Fire/Spines Scrapper
Level 50 Shield/Elec Tank
Level 50 Merc/TA Mastermind
Level 50 Ice/Storm Controller
Level 50 Arch/Devices Blaster
Level 50 Rad/MM Blaster
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster
Level 35 Elec/Rad Controller
Level 32 Rad/Fire Blaster

So basically I havent played a Stalker, Warshade or Widow to 50 yet...but yeah Ive played a little...

And I still find blasters incredibly fun !!!!!


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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What is it these lack ? Well they all still die much more often than other ATs. They do less for teams and they solo slower in the later game than just about anything except may defenders (depending on the defender even that might not be true)
#1: You still seem incapable of answering even one simple question asked of you.
#2: Prove it.

You know how I said opinions aren't facts? It's remarks like this I was talking about. Kinda like this dead horse too.

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Meanwhile in the adult, highlevel-world other ATs can go to town similarly without support or resorting to expensive defensive IO-set builds picking on select enemy-types. No matter the rhetorics; Blasters do not nearly get enough back for being one-trick ponies in relation to other ATs.
First off do you know how many of my blasters are built for defense set wise? Zero. The only one even halfway kitted out in sets is my ice/dev. and she's built for recharge, enough to almost have perma hasten again, along with dual gun drones, and a nonstop attack chain that makes a brutes fury bar look downright silly compared to how high i can get the defiance buffs going.

Second, no matter how many times you say it, unless you feel like providing actual in game examples and experiences playing scenarios with blasters vs scrappers vs doms vs god, I ain't gonna buy it as my experiences playing blasters says otherwise. The same goes to any spreadsheet, mids plan, or some hey look at me I can solo all the Rikti pylons and states while having a nice cup of tea build. Outliers like that don't have any relevance to the point of the thread, which still is why a blaster. To which I and others say it's because we bring a lot to the table, and because they're fun as anything to play.

Past that? Not really interested in convincing either of you anymore so much as having fun tweaking. After all it was clear from that lil bit of hyperbole in AF's posts and saying that we're "Whitewashing for castle" That he doesn't want to be, and won't be convinced anyway that blasters aren't just as good if not better at points then his "favorite AT" You have a scrapper bias that's fine, I have an unapologetic snarky as all get out blaster bias myself. And yes still do think scrappers are dull, slider or otherwise. After all if you want to talk about an "AT with little more then five different animations of brawl" I think that sums them up pretty well.

All you and seraphel are doing at this point is constantly shifting the argument, ignoring things in posts that go against your opinions, providing zero evidence to back up said opinions past unproven or unprovable anecdotes. Or in his case constantly trying to turn it to some other silly strawman (Love the word) like the all scrappers need are reds or it's hard for blaster to position a cone. (LOL)

*Picks target in back middle of mob, or hits hot keyed target farthest enemy button to ensure the cone doesn't stop short*

*Alternately sits by the edge of the mobs tank/brute/whatever just herded*

*Fires cone*
*Watches mobs die*

Just cause I'm feeling rather snarky this morning I can't help but ask. Do you really suck at blasters that bad that you haven't figured that one out yet Seraphel? Half the stuff you seem to be still intent on whining about or say doesn't matter is what a smart blaster calls learning his AT and what it can do, as evidenced by airhammer's examples. Also, accuracy doesn't matter? (LOL x2) Tell that to any 8 man team when the level count starts rising, or a solo in the wrong mob type. A blaster that doesn't hit is a dead blaster. It's why the hardest mobs I've faced on my new DP/Eng have been cot ghosts flooring my acc, or a time when a force field generator from the sky raiders made me miss at least my entire attack chain and change against a BP mask. (The stop crey negotiations vig tip mission)

Also if you'd like I'll gladly take my now 29 rad/fire SK'ed up into any high level TF, Trial, or mission, and I'll wager you're going to see the same results. Show me a target, and I'll show you my blasters melting them. And if I don't beat some magical number metric in the process? Three words.

I, Don't, care. =p

So what if a scrapper in some instances might overlap into my area of damage? Ok that's fine. But wait, don't tanks have better HP and better armor? I know how bout we start a why a scrapper thread? After all why would anyone want to play a scrapper when a tank is easier to keep alive and still has enough damage to solo. Not to mention brings more to a team by being able to herd mobs better then a scrapper for his aoe using teammates? Or stand toe to toe with bosses a lot longer.

But hold on, controllers can keep entire spawns locked down with their primary, and keep them debuffed to make things easier for the team. Or soloing it helps the damage they do put out along with the containment buff they got due to complaints of soloing too slow. (I.E. A reason and well thought argument made by the troller players, something I've yet to see here from people who think blasters need more) So how bout a why a tanker thread? Who needs them to herd when nothing is attacking or debuffed to the nines anyway?

Oh shoot, though now that I think about defenders buff/debuffs have higher values (with maybe the exception of storm, least that was the case pre IO's if I remember right) And they have a whole secondary of direct damage, some of which has stuns and holds anyway. Pair that with the damage they can do, and why would anyone want a controller? Specially on a team since the defender brings better buffs and higher damage, who needs the holds if you're killing faster?

Hold on though, if you just need damage with a dash of holds or few debuffs to boot (devices most of all) who needs the defender? After all a blaster brings a much higher chunk of damage, more aoe's, can in the right instances be just as useful with selective holds and debuffs too. Which you need just long enough to make everything around you dead. So perhaps a why a defender thread is in order?

And then of course we're right back here to silly scrapper arguments and a why a blaster thread, I guess the circle is complete, and overlap is a pain eh?


On a side note to that list Airhammer.

O_O good god, and I thought 3 50's was fun enough. Though I see a rad/fire at the bottom of the list, enjoying the build much as I am?


 

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I have an interesting case of altitis.. I have lots of toons I want to make.. list them in a book. But I usually play from 1 all the way to 50 and then start another one. Ive been playing since two months after release so Ive been around for a while.

The Rad/Fire has been really really fun. I was playing that until Issue 18 came out and I started an Elec/Rad Controller...


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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Originally Posted by Dragonkat View Post
#1: You still seem incapable of answering even one simple question asked of you.
#2: Prove it.

You know how I said opinions aren't facts? It's remarks like this I was talking about. Kinda like this dead horse too.
Fact every time numbers are presented in this thread you ignore them.

Fact it has been repeatedly proved. The numbers have been presented in this thread time and again.

Fact you continuously present your opinion as fact and have stated that facts don't matter to you

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I ain't gonna buy it as my experiences playing blasters says otherwise. The same goes to any spreadsheet, mids plan, or some hey look at me I can solo all the Rikti pylons and states while having a nice cup of tea build. Outliers like that don't have any relevance to the point of the thread, which still is why a blaster. To which I and others say it's because we bring a lot to the table, and because they're fun as anything to play.
And one last fact.

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Past that? Not really interested in convincing either of you anymore so much as having fun tweaking. After all it was clear from that lil bit of hyperbole in AF's posts and saying that we're "Whitewashing for castle"
Whitewashing fences is a reference to Huckleberry Finn.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/76

Do yourself a favor and read it.

Oh and an edit. You asked a question but so far you haven't answered the fundamental question. When is a blaster the best choice ? When is it a better choice than anything else ?

I already know the answer to this and its almost never, and it will only be getting worse with incarnates and I19 inherent fitness.


 

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Why would I want to play a Scrapper when I can take a Brute anywhere now?

Face it, some people just don't like playing certain ATs. Personally, I find Scrappers boring and laugh whenever I hear one complain about a Blaster's lack of defenses(it always sounds to me like they're not yet ready to swim in the deep end with the big kids).

I love my Blasters. My 50 Elec/Elec/Elec is a blapping machine of pure seat-of-her-pants awesome, and I have a riot every time I log her on.

Haters gonna hate(and hopefully play on a different team).


 

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Where have you posted hard fact numbers? It's all been 'On this spreadsheet' or 'in theory' when in actual practice, you havent posted anything to back up your claim that scrapper only need reds, and blasters die instantly to mez mobs.

I would really like to see how the APPs don't benefit blasters, as they add mitigation in the form of defense or resitance, or extra mez, which you have yet to actually talk about.

You say scrappers can do everything a blaster can do but better, but your talkin in a vacuum, assuming both the scrapper and blaster are in melee range, when the blaster is best suited to attack from range, far from the hard hitting melee attacks most mobs have.

Where is your actual hard facted evidence that blasters die more often the scrappers?

Where is your actual hard facted evidence that scrappers can out damage Blasters?

Where is your proof in regards to those arguements? All you've stated doesnt answer those questions.


 

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Saying blasters are fun and useful doesn't counter, let alone negate, the statement that blasters are not as powerful relative to most other AT's than they should be.

Which is all that is being said. People saying blasters need improvement aren't saying they are total garbage because nothing in the game is total garbage. So please stop claiming that is their position.

Personally I thought blasters were a lot more fun pre defiance changes when they were really a skill based AT. Not only do I find the new defiance shoot-while-mezzed mechanic to be illogical, it looks absolutely retarded in game. The latter of which is probably a strong contributor to the former conclusion.

I like the fury-lite aspect and the increased range modifier, but would have personally loved to see the damage buff tied to hp remain along with the new fury-lite in exchange for the shoot-while-mezzed. I would have made the hp/damage buff kick in a bit stronger and sooner. That would have made the AT true damage gods.


 

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Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
Where have you posted hard fact numbers? It's all been 'On this spreadsheet' or 'in theory' when in actual practice, you havent posted anything to back up your claim that scrapper only need reds, and blasters die instantly to mez mobs.
You either can't or just don't wish to understand what has been said.

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Lets start with the elephant in the room, a mezzed blaster is not softcapped to anything and there isn't a blaster with any kind of defense debuff resistance either. So when that mezzing attack lands on a blaster half their defense goes out the window and they are taking 4 times the damage. If they haven't managed to eliminate a significant portion of the spawn by the time this happens their lethality drops by a very large amount due to having no aoes covered by defiance's mezz protection. The controls being talked about, are single target controls that scale very badly with spawn size.
And to be precise. That is assuming they are going from 45% defense to all attacks to 30% defense all attacks. Which is about what they lose from their epic shield going down and have the rest of their defense in passive set bonuses. If they have more in other non auto powers they lose more. That build that relies on weave and hover loses another 5+% depending on slotting and it goes on and on.

The lethality decrease is on the order of 8 or better. Loss of AoEs, loss of aim and build up, loss of everything except the tier 1 and tier 2 powers.

Just so you can understand that fire electric blaster goes from 300 dps best case to under 150 dps when mezzed. Aim and build up are gone. Aoes are gone. Which means that for every thing that is attacking the blaster loses one unit of its unmezzed lethality. No fireball, No breath of fire, No rain of fire. No mitigation except electric fences.





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I would really like to see how the APPs don't benefit blasters, as they add mitigation in the form of defense or resitance, or extra mez, which you have yet to actually talk about.
Every discussion here has factored in the APPs. If you don't understand how go back and read the thread.

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You say scrappers can do everything a blaster can do but better, but your talkin in a vacuum, assuming both the scrapper and blaster are in melee range, when the blaster is best suited to attack from range, far from the hard hitting melee attacks most mobs have.
This was already covered up thread.

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Where is your actual hard facted evidence that blasters die more often the scrappers?
Edit removed redundant phrase: I would suggest that the next time you play the game you try watching what is happening.

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Where is your actual hard facted evidence that scrappers can out damage Blasters?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=130754

600 plus posts on scrapper damage peak damage better than theoretical peak blaster damage.

As it stands the Tank at 150+dps is starting to move in on blaster single target damage.

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Where is your proof in regards to those arguements? All you've stated doesnt answer those questions.
Do you keep asking this, because you feel, if you ask it last it makes you right ?


 

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And to be precise. That is assuming they are going from 45% defense to all attacks to 30% defense all attacks. Which is about what they lose from their epic shield going down and have the rest of their defense in passive set bonuses. If they have more in other non auto powers they lose more. That build that relies on weave and hover loses another 5+% depending on slotting and it goes on and on.

The lethality decrease is on the order of 8 or better. Loss of AoEs, loss of aim and build up, loss of everything except the tier 1 and tier 2 powers.

Just so you can understand that fire electric blaster goes from 300 dps best case to under 150 dps when mezzed. Aim and build up are gone. Aoes are gone. Which means that for every thing that is attacking the blaster loses one unit of its unmezzed lethality. No fireball, No breath of fire, No rain of fire. No mitigation except electric fences.
You again assuming the blaster is going to stand there and die. They still have thier t1 and t2 attacks, which are still ranged, and still pack a decent punch. The immbolize, is again, still range. Most mez's are range as well, so mob mez's blasters, blaster immoblizes mob, then proceeds to blast it with t1 and t2 attacks, which can easily be chained together using SOs.

What is your threshold? Because this game is balanced around soloing at +0/1/no bosses. With those numbers, A blaster can, and will kill faster then a scrapper of equal still, due to the range component a blaster has. A scrapper has to close up to the enemy, while the blaster can easily attack from upwards of 40ft (throw spines, caps at 30ft range by the way) Yes the higher damaging attacks for a blaster are the melee attacks, but thats why they have a hold or a stun in thier primary. Hold/stun the mob, then wail on it, then goto the next group.

Linking to the Pylon thread actually moreso proves my point then yours. This is the latest up to date info on the results. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=612

and currently there are 2 Blasters in that post, with DPS values of 219 (fire/energy), and 204 (ice/mental) There are also 34 /shield or shield/ DPS values. There are 105 posts, with the fire/energy being number 53, and the ice/mental being 61, which is just about in the middle of performance, and thats when compared to other scrappers/brute/dominators/controllers/MMs basically anyone else who are posted in that thread. So, how are blasters underperforming?

I recent played my fire/fire/fire blasters, my DP/dev blaster, my elec/shield scrapper, and my kat/regen scrapper for about an hour each within the last week, and i'll have to say the blasters are out living the scrappers, due to sheer amounts of damage, and abusing range.

My regen, if he takes too much of an alpha, just dies. Its a problem of regen, not so much a scrapper in general, but He does die quite often if divine doesnt hit, or MoG isnt up to help out. the fire/fire/fire blaster does die, but its not nearly as often as the regen, and the fire/fire/fire actually has RoTP, where the regen just couldnt fit it in his build, so a death doesnt stop me completly on the blaster as it does the scrapper.

Both the DP/dev and the elec/shield are lower level, which you said yourself blaster perform better at lower levels, so comparing those may not really help out the case at all, but the elec/shield can barely handle a group of 3 ghouls constantly hitting him, as i have to close into melee in order to attack. the blaster can pull, and attack at range and handle quite abit more then the scrapper can.

If your playing your blaster like you would play a scrapper, your going to die, ALOT. they are completely different styles of doing damage. If you play a blaster like a blaster, your much more likely to not just survive, but out damage said scrapper. Range is your best friend, and being able to attack while mez'ed, plus the scaling damage bonus the more you attack definately helps put things moreso into the blasters court.


 

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FWIW blasters should never even have to consider the question "does some other AT do more damage than me?"

Every single blaster set/combo should do more raw damage than any other set/combo from another AT because every other AT has more survivability and/or team forcemultiplication.

The fact that there is even a discussion questioning the prowess of blaster damage (be it st or aoe) is evidence enough to put up a flag. The fact that these discussions go a lot further than questioning their dominance and go so far as to actually refute it should set off alarms.

Case in point. Every single blaster combo should be able to kill a boss faster than every single scrapper combo (assuming the blaster is alive). Every single blaster combo should be able to kill a spawn faster than every single scrapper combo (assuming the blaster is alive). This isn't the case and it is inappropriate as long as every scrapper combo is tougher than every blaster combo, which by default it is.

Overlap of roles and performance in this game is welcomed, but it is a two way street. If you can do as much damage as me then I should be able to survive as well as you (in the most simplified explanation possible).

Lots of toons can infringe on what blasters excel at, but blasters aren't permitted to infringe on what the other AT's excel at. As another example the most control based blaster doesn't hold a candle to the control a dominator can provide, but the most damage oriented dominator can certianly infringe on blaster territory.


 

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While i do agree with you that blasters need to be #1, it'll be really hard to balance anything that way. What you basically saying is a assault rifle/dev blaster should be able to out damage a elec/shield scrapper, due to the fact the blaster as no means to defend themselves the way a scrapper does.

But the blaster does. Cloaking device, trip mine, targetting drone basically negating the need to slot acc, etc. yes, that elec/shield can lightning rod/shield charge basically every group to death, and they can more or less do it from range, (due to the targetting nature of LR and SC) but they aren't stepping on blasters toes to do it.

Blasters offer ranged damage and utility. Sometimes the utility they offer isn't what the team can really use (a field of trip mines may kill that EB in one round, but the setup would take too long on a good team) But that ranged damage is what pulls them ahead.

A scraper is melee damage. A blaster is ranged. While the scrapper is having to actually run into a group to kill the boss, or wipe that spawn out, the blaster can do the same thing from range. Its to different damage 'types' and until scrappers can chain together a full ranged attack chain, they will need the defenses thier secondary gives them.

A blasters biggest 'defense' is range. Learn how to abuse it, Use it to your advantage, and love it.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
If your playing your blaster like you would play a scrapper, your going to die, ALOT. they are completely different styles of doing damage. If you play a blaster like a blaster, your much more likely to not just survive, but out damage said scrapper. Range is your best friend, and being able to attack while mez'ed, plus the scaling damage bonus the more you attack definately helps put things moreso into the blasters court.
QFT.

Question: How do you feel about Doms? The Blaster-haters are usually also Dom-haters, and for similar reasons. Not trying to strawman, but I have noticed a correlation.*

If this was a thread petitioning for a slight damage buff for Blasters, I'd be on board. DPS is a legitimate concern, but most of these issues are between keyboard & chair. You don't need active defense when you're killing them first. Being mezzed is nothing. You can still attack!

*Yes, correlation != causation.


 

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Originally Posted by Positivity View Post
Question: How do you feel about Doms? The Blaster-haters are usually also Dom-haters, and for similar reasons. Not trying to strawman, but I have noticed a correlation.*

If this was a thread petitioning for a slight damage buff for Blasters, I'd be on board. DPS is a legitimate concern, but most of these issues are between keyboard & chair. You don't need active defense when you're killing them first. Being mezzed is nothing. You can still attack!

*Yes, correlation != causation.
Personally I love doms, they are very flexible in their roles and bring much value to most teams. They have the best inherent in the game and they scale well in teams, in various situations, and with investment.

Blasters are a remnant of the 'holy trinity' design principle and as such they don't hold up as well under scrutiny in this game that drives hard to break that mold. Doms are how blasters should have been originally implemented in this game.

On the other hand I don't hate blasters and for clarity I haven't seen anyone say they hate blasters, so it would be nice if people stopped proclaiming that. I find blasters to be pretty fun, but I have the objective ability to discern between fun and quantifiable power. Blasters are fun, but not nearly as powerful as they should be relative to what other AT's are allowed to do with SO's all the way up to IO's and anywhere in between.

I try to prevent my subjective feelings from impacting my objective understanding of things. Not everyone can do that.