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While I'm nearly certain Masterminds can, in the right conditions out damage a blaster doing the same thing, the risk gets high once you start stacking in various things. Do remember that Masterminds suffer more from AoE damage then any other AT, and once their pets do drop, they have the lowest hp base of any other AT. Masterminds are by no means immune to the effects of mobs, and while some instances (hami raids for example) the mastermind can clearly stay completely out of harms way, those are few and far between.|
Originally Posted by Thinkso
Nope. I don't really care that MM's can standup to AV's beyond the fact that it demonstrates their ability to easily handle most content similar to a toon that can kill a pylon.
MM's rip through content. All MM's (well I haven't tried /ff, but I've done every primary and/or secondary besides that one to ~40). The only thing that used to slow MM's down was that you had to summon and individually buff all pets at the start of each mission. Both those factors are gone and as a result MMs can clear solo missions among the fastest and safest in the game. Reward rate is a direct indicator of your ability to deliver damage. The ability to deliver damage is a function of several factors including, but not limited to: damage output, survivability, and movement speed. We know MM's are the overall slowest moving AT. We know they are 10's or even 100's of times more survivable than blasters. Yet even in missions where survivability isn't stressed they can still clear enemies +/- as fast as a blaster* *something like a merc/ta is probably slower than a fire/elec when survivability is not a factor, but a nin/storm is way faster than an elec/dev. When survivability enters the equation like the type of situation where a blaster would like to leverage their high target aoe's a MM is often considerably better at successfully delivering damage. Additionally the fastest MM (on SO's or IO's) is faster than the fastest blaster outside of cherrypicking the absolute easiest mobs available. |
Masterminds have to micro manage 6 different damage sources, as well as deal with their buff/debuff/control secondary. This is a hard task to do, especially considering a blaster merely has to point and click and kill the mobs. Have you actually tried to farm on a Mastermind? I mean seriously try? Its much too hard and very different to manage then a single character (Blaster, controller, etc) due to the erratic behavior of the pets AIs, and how it really doesn't want to work sometimes (try ninjas, those things make blasters of any sort look like invuln tankers in their shear durability)
So, yes, on paper masterminds may out damage blasters, especially against hard targets where they can focus fire, and work their debuffs, but in practice, its really much harder to do.
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Don't worry its impossible to take anyone seriously who says things like this|
Originally Posted by Dragonkat
You know I was just gonna leave this thread alone after reading this post, after all it's pretty clear satire and sarcasm really are lost on people. Well that and I stopped taking the thread seriously about 3 posts back. And when you start bring up DPS numbers and say tanks are creeping on blasters AF, it's pretty damn hard to take you seriously too.
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| Oh and for the record I'm unabashed about being very opinionated, if I state a fact I'm going to have actual experience to back it up, or I'm going to offer an idea of how the fight would go based on my ACTUAL knowledge of how blasters and in game mobs behave, you should try it sometime. If you get my opinions confused with facts, well that's your problem chief, not mine. Let me just go ahead and say that everything in this thread unless labeled otherwise is an opinion, just to spare you that problem. |
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| I'll just highlight that last sentence in your quote as a prime example of failing at that. You throw it out there like blaster doom, yet you leave us all asking why? If this was a real debate you start with a premise such as that, but then you have to back it up with actual evidence to prove the point. |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...11#post3135311
152 dps for what is by any measure not the highest output combination.
I would normally take the trouble to do the calculations and show you that is comparable to many blaster single target chains but honestly what would be the point when you show such an ability to dismiss anything you don't like ? As you demonstrate below.
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| Now your numbers? Yes they are facts, but your numbers are not proof. As I saw said above this is not city of pylons, DPS does not operate in a vacuum. I don't give a damn about your numbers because they have no bearing on actual in game scenarios, something you still fail to present past a spreadsheet. We're not city of math majors either. We deal with mob spreads, adds, team buffs, mob debuffs, getting to the next group of mobs (in some cases before the blaster can aoe it hehe), perhaps falling back to pull a boss off a blaster pulling too much heat, lining up a melee cone, in sort all those pesky little real world details that a spreadsheet can not take into account. |
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| So if you really wanted to shut me up just show me one concrete in game example of a scapper against X mob type, how the fights went, then throw a blaster against the same thing, as I did time and again in this thread with my factual personal experience and opinions of how the fights would go given my knowledge of the AT and mob behavior. |
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| Damage caps, DPS, and mids plans don't take real world factors into account, so in my opinion they have no bearing on the question you're asking me regarding why a blaster over anything else. |
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| What I really dislike about you and some of the other "haters" in this thread is the fact you can't seem to grasp that concept. As the saying goes you've got plenty of book learning, but not much street smarts (i.e actually seeing what blasters can do) You highlight all the weaknesses, none of the good, and have this quite frankly brain dead notion that all a blaster is, is damage. So therefore to you, scrapper does more DPS, and so scrapper > blaster. Never mind not every blaster sec is devoted to damage? Umm...devices players, raise your hand here? |
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| Either way we're honestly both running in circles, |
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I can't claim to have played all the mastermind combinations but there is absolutely no circumstance in the current game where they can't be as safe as the want to while still delivering an incredible amount of damage.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
While I'm nearly certain Masterminds can, in the right conditions out damage a blaster doing the same thing, the risk gets high once you start stacking in various things. Do remember that Masterminds suffer more from AoE damage then any other AT, and once their pets do drop, they have the lowest hp base of any other AT. Masterminds are by no means immune to the effects of mobs, and while some instances (hami raids for example) the mastermind can clearly stay completely out of harms way, those are few and far between.
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It used to be some missions would have a hot door ambush that would hit masterminds while they were summoning pets. Now the pets zone with you and those seem to have disappeared.
AoE only hurts masterminds, when it actually hits the mastermind. Its also not that big a deal when all the pets can be softcapped to all positions.
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Solo I don't have much trouble on my MMs, surely much less than I do on my blasters, once I start upping the difficulty. My mercs/poison has always felt strong, and from what I understand it is a weak MM combo. My Demon/Storm is simply amazing and can easily take on things that would kill any but the most IOd blaster, and he is only level 40. Killing is pretty fast, but I can outdo it with my scrappers, brutes, and blasters.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
While I'm nearly certain Masterminds can, in the right conditions out damage a blaster doing the same thing, the risk gets high once you start stacking in various things.
... So, yes, on paper masterminds may out damage blasters, especially against hard targets where they can focus fire, and work their debuffs, but in practice, its really much harder to do. |
If teamed and protected, I don't see MMs out-damaging blasters on big spawns. SC + BL on a buffed Elec/Dev is plenty impressive and damaging to outdo MMs. That said, I have not been unimpressed by the damage output of my MM, but I believe FR is a huge boon there. FR will, of course, also increase the blaster's damage level. I think the debuffs are skewing the perception and debuffs affect the whole team.
Teaming with my friends Bot/Traps and either of my MMs is pretty efficient, but still not as impressive as what a blaster without The Fear can do vs. giant spawns, sans AVs.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Sure if you micromanage your pets you can squeeze even more performance out of them, but it is entirely unnecessary to decimate content with a MM.
All you need is defensive goto. If any pet or you is attacked they will all go nuts killing everything in sight as long as something is attacking them/you every 5-8 seconds they will stay in kill mode. Once things get thin enough that they may go idle you just turn them on to aggressive and they will mop up the 1-2 things remaining.
IME playing buff/debuff across all available AT's extensively MM's are the easiest to utilize their secondary because their primary is so hands off. A few simple commands that don't interfere with your ability to cast your buff/debuffs makes them extremely effective. It is very similar to the illusion/emp (or therm) buffing combo in that you can still be an excellent controller with minimal time investment while dedicating the majority of your efforts into buffing because your control powers/pets are so self sufficient and effective when left to their own accord.
I know my bots/storm was the most indepth storm experience I've had yet (50 storm/sonic, 50 fire/storm troller, 50 ice/storm corr) because my bots needed so little attention allowing me to do excellent damage and devote almost all my efforts to stormy goodness.
Yes MM's are susceptible to aoe damage. Yet they have the ability to directly control where their pets go*. Problem solved with the exception of 'afraid patches'. Afraid patches are their one actual weakness. Thankfully it really isn't a very common effect (certainly not rare, but not common either). Comparatively blasters are weak to just about everything under the sun by design.
Yes if everything goes wrong and a MM is left petless they are very weak. Of course by that point a blaster would have died multiple times over.
The "right" conditions are very easy to meet and the 'wrong" conditions are generally very easy to avoid resulting in the MM's ability to outdamgae a blaster being a relatively easy and common occurrence all while being much tougher and possessing a forcemultiplying set.
*Ignoring the current pet bug that is causing most pets to rush into melee even when they don't possess any melee attacks. Hopefully it eventually gets fixed as it is not WAI.
EDIT: but really nitpicking this point to determine if a MM does almost as much, or a bit more damage than a blaster is totally irrelevant. The fact that it does ANYWHERE NEAR the damage of a blaster is a huge red flag because they are considerably more survivable and also have the ability to forcemultiply teams.
Even if a blaster does more damage than a MM (which IME isn't the case and testing to date supports MM's in this regard) and we say the blaster scores a 10; the MM scores at least an 8 or 9 for damage. The blaster scores a 0 for survivability (not saying they have zero survivability, this is just how proper scoring is done), and the MM scores an 8 or 9 in this area. A blaster scores a 0 to 1 for forcmultiplication and a MM scores a 6-8 (compared to a defender). Play with the values however you see fit, but the end result is Blasters get the short end of the stick vs MM's. You can then go through and do this for every AT and what you'll find if you objectively score things is that like I said in one of my first posts in this thread: Blasters are comparatively underpowered vs everything with the exception of stalkers. FWIW, that isn't the same statement as saying Blasters suck, and it isn't blaster hate.
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Blasters really pay a high price for being able to deliver damage at range and for their larger AoEs, it is kind of odd that MMs do not pay the same price, but MMs need their survivability to perform their role and the debuffs are a big part of that role as well. They probably do more damage than they "should". It is probable that MMs are actually quite a bit harder to figure out how to play well than we think.|
Originally Posted by Thinkso
Even if a blaster does more damage than a MM (which IME isn't the case and testing to date supports MM's in this regard) and we say the blaster scores a 10; the MM scores at least an 8 or 9 for damage. The blaster scores a 0 for survivability (not saying they have zero survivability, this is just how proper scoring is done), and the MM scores an 8 or 9 in this area. A blaster scores a 0 to 1 for forcmultiplication and a MM scores a 6-8 (compared to a defender). Play with the values however you see fit, but the end result is Blasters get the short end of the stick vs MM's. You can then go through and do this for every AT and what you'll find if you objectively score things is that like I said in one of my first posts in this thread: Blasters are comparatively underpowered vs everything with the exception of stalkers. FWIW, that isn't the same statement as saying Blasters suck, and it isn't blaster hate.
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One thing your rating system does not include is making your teammates feel needed. Blasters score an 11 on that whereas MMs score a 0 or 1. That is not a joke (OK. I am laughing too, but I do mean it seriously as well).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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*sighs* You know I really was willing to meet you on this too, I guess admitting blasters and scrappers are equal in their overlap just isn't enough for some people though is it?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Hyperbolic post is hyperbolic
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But I guess an attempt at compromise is also lost on people who seem to think this is all about winning an argument too. I'm sorry if you have to take this so seriously, as I said this thread is just a game to me at this point, and a rather boring one now at that. After all it's hard to respond to a post that's little more then vitriol and insults. One that gives away your opinion on the matter more then anything. And troll bait I really don't feel like rising too.
If that's where we are fine by me, you aren't interested in having a discussion so I think we're done here. Have fun with your misguided beliefs regarding blasters, I'm going to have fun playing them, "Giant orange numbers" and all.
Oh and yes I think they're fine the way they are, even dual pistols. If you don't think so, then do us all a favor, offer a real suggestion or two on how to improve the AT rather then this silly continued crusade to tear the AT down vs all the others. Preferably one that doesn't involve power creep or think MOAR DAMAGE is the answer to everything.
/thread =p
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This is BS, except for some peoples the majority of players don't want to deal with a class that is more difficult to play than the average other class without major gain in power.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Or people could learn to play a blaster better.
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This is exactly what happened with the Fire/Kin trollers for a while, more difficult to level then being unmatched for farming after 32.
The blaster just offer the same level of efficiency as every other AT.
Peoples are lazy when it come to entertainment, nothing new here.
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I do like how you completely skipped over this post. And in regards to just 'goto aggressive' good luck doing it on anything post 0/1 and not having to resummon after each fight. Mastermind pets are not just a lower level then the mastermind (the tier 1 pets being -2 to the mastermind) but they have really low hitpoints, and outside of serious amounts of buffing (i/e bot/traps or bot/FF) its basically impossible to softcap without outside help from another AT. At which point its better to just add a PC controlled blaster to the mix, as the buff/debuff from the mastermind is also benefiting the blaster as much as the mastermind itself.|
Solo I don't have much trouble on my MMs, surely much less than I do on my blasters, once I start upping the difficulty. My mercs/poison has always felt strong, and from what I understand it is a weak MM combo. My Demon/Storm is simply amazing and can easily take on things that would kill any but the most IOd blaster, and he is only level 40. Killing is pretty fast, but I can outdo it with my scrappers, brutes, and blasters. If teamed and protected, I don't see MMs out-damaging blasters on big spawns. SC + BL on a buffed Elec/Dev is plenty impressive and damaging to outdo MMs. That said, I have not been unimpressed by the damage output of my MM, but I believe FR is a huge boon there. FR will, of course, also increase the blaster's damage level. I think the debuffs are skewing the perception and debuffs affect the whole team. Teaming with my friends Bot/Traps and either of my MMs is pretty efficient, but still not as impressive as what a blaster without The Fear can do vs. giant spawns, sans AVs. |
Your completely disregarding any pros to blasters and only focusing on the negatives, which is entirely the wrong way to look at the situation. Blasters bring about ranged damage, with enough utility to keep themselves alive solo to accomplish that job, and enough pure damage on a team to steamroll just about anything in its way.
Forcemultipliers only go so far. Once you start hitting higher caps on things, its MUCH more efficient to add a pure damage class then it is to add any other form of debuff/buff.
Here's a pretty simple example for you. Say you have a minion 100ft away, and you have an SO slotted Scrapper, and an SO slotted blaster. Who kills the mob first?
Take that same minion, and put it 5ft away. Who kills the mob first?
Now change that minion to a LT, who kills it first at 100ft, and at 5ft.
Do the same with a boss.
Everytime that blaster will be able to kill said mob at 100ft more often then the scrapper, and that scrapper will be able to kill said mob at 5ft more then the the blaster.
That is the strength of the blaster AT, the ability to attack at range, and abuse that to his advantage, which you (both Thinkso and Another Fan) have completely disregarded.
First it was Scrapper > Blaster, now its MM > Blaster, yet with both arguments, the blaster has the upper hand. Blasters will out perform Scrappers at range, and out damage MMs all out.
Again, have you tried to farm with a Mastermind? Have you even heard of people doing it? The risk vs reward isn't work it, when a pure damage class can do it much faster, and without the hassle involved.
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You did that very well, do you often have to come up with such elaborate self justification ?
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Originally Posted by Dragonkat
*sighs* You know I really was willing to meet you on this too, I guess admitting blasters and scrappers are equal in their overlap just isn't enough for some people though is it?
But I guess an attempt at compromise is also lost on people who seem to think this is all about winning an argument too. I'm sorry if you have to take this so seriously, as I said this thread is just a game to me at this point, and a rather boring one now at that. After all it's hard to respond to a post that's little more then vitriol and insults. One that gives away your opinion on the matter more then anything. And troll bait I really don't feel like rising too. If that's where we are fine by me, you aren't interested in having a discussion so I think we're done here. Have fun with your misguided beliefs regarding blasters, I'm going to have fun playing them, "Giant orange numbers" and all. Oh and yes I think they're fine the way they are, even dual pistols. If you don't think so, then do us all a favor, offer a real suggestion or two on how to improve the AT rather then this silly continued crusade to tear the AT down vs all the others. Preferably one that doesn't involve power creep or think MOAR DAMAGE is the answer to everything. /thread =p |
Arbelga, you need to be more clear who you are talking to. I am pretty sure you are quoting me, but talking to someone else, but it is hard to tell who that is.
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First, I expect to have to re-summon somewhat; personally, I like it when I can use the powers I choose, as opposed to clicking it once and then not having to click them again. Second, MMs can easily operate well past the base difficulty without losing pets anything like every fight.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
I do like how you completely skipped over this post. And in regards to just 'goto aggressive' good luck doing it on anything post 0/1 and not having to resummon after each fight.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Everytime that blaster will be able to kill said mob at 100ft more often then the scrapper, and that scrapper will be able to kill said mob at 5ft more then the the blaster.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
That is the strength of the blaster AT, the ability to attack at range, and abuse that to his advantage, which you (both Thinkso and Another Fan) have completely disregarded.
First it was Scrapper > Blaster, now its MM > Blaster, yet with both arguments, the blaster has the upper hand. Blasters will out perform Scrappers at range, and out damage MMs all out. Again, have you tried to farm with a Mastermind? Have you even heard of people doing it? The risk vs reward isn't work it, when a pure damage class can do it much faster, and without the hassle involved. |
I am not a good farmer, but I do like to engage in some farm-like activities. Your opinion of MMs potential is vastly under what they can achieve. Gaping. Abyssal.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Bots dark does well enough and is able to do so on SO builds. The combination of web envelope, tar patch and the assault bot shooting burn patches everywhere is quite effective.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Again, have you tried to farm with a Mastermind? Have you even heard of people doing it? The risk vs reward isn't work it, when a pure damage class can do it much faster, and without the hassle involved.
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There was nothing in that post that warranted a response, but if you really want me to get into it:|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
I do like how you completely skipped over this post.
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-He points out the large survivability disparity accompanied by a minor damage disparity.
-He says his blasters, scrappers, and brutes solo a bit faster. Which is fine considering brutes and scrappers have been dragged out in this thread already as doing too much damage relative to blasters
-He talks about the aoe damage of the blaster in a full team, but seems unaware that someone that casts a -res debuff is responsible for everyone's increase in damage. It only takes a tiny bit of forcemeultiplication to eclipse a single damage dealer's contribution in a team. (if you require a detailed explanation just ask, I'll happily explain).
-He points out that a fearless blaster is probably more destructive than a bots/traps, but a bots/traps is always fearless against virtually anything this game offers. I know my bots/traps and bots/storm can wipe out +2/8 mobs faster than the aoe missles can cycle (roughly 20 seconds). I've only seen the most pimped out arch blasters match that kind of speed and they crumble as difficulty increases, while both of those MM's can survive against just about anything the game has to offer.
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| And in regards to just 'goto aggressive' good luck doing it on anything post 0/1 and not having to resummon after each fight. |
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| At which point its better to just add a PC controlled blaster to the mix, as the buff/debuff from the mastermind is also benefiting the blaster as much as the mastermind itself. |
It's not "I'm awesome and some guy was using some funny looking rain power while I cleaned house". It's "I'm awesome BECAUSE of the funny looking rain"
I get that people that only look at the size of the orange numbers have trouble with understanding the difference. That isn't meant to be mean, lots of people still think broadsword is the ultimate because of the large orange numbers despite most sets surpassing its damage output.
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| Your completely disregarding any pros to blasters and only focusing on the negatives, which is entirely the wrong way to look at the situation. Blasters bring about ranged damage, with enough utility to keep themselves alive solo to accomplish that job, and enough pure damage on a team to steamroll just about anything in its way. |
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| Forcemultipliers only go so far. Once you start hitting higher caps on things, its MUCH more efficient to add a pure damage class then it is to add any other form of debuff/buff. |
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| Here's a pretty simple example for you. Say you have a minion 100ft away, and you have an SO slotted Scrapper, and an SO slotted blaster. Who kills the mob first? |
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Take that same minion, and put it 5ft away. Who kills the mob first? Now change that minion to a LT, who kills it first at 100ft, and at 5ft. Do the same with a boss. |
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| Everytime that blaster will be able to kill said mob at 100ft more often then the scrapper, and that scrapper will be able to kill said mob at 5ft more then the the blaster. |
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| That is the strength of the blaster AT, the ability to attack at range, and abuse that to his advantage, which you (both Thinkso and Another Fan) have completely disregarded. |
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| First it was Scrapper > Blaster, now its MM > Blaster, yet with both arguments, the blaster has the upper hand. Blasters will out perform Scrappers at range, and out damage MMs all out. |
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| Again, have you tried to farm with a Mastermind? Have you even heard of people doing it? The risk vs reward isn't work it, when a pure damage class can do it much faster, and without the hassle involved. |
FWIW I pretty much copied Frosticus' bots/storm/mu build that sits at #2 for pylon kill speed and IME the single target damage is actually not the highlight of that toon. It wipes out entire spawns in mere seconds. I have a heavily pimped (multi-billion) fire/em/ice blaster that can kill spawns about as fast, but the difference is the MM build (which is way cheaper too) doesn't care about what faction the enemy is, what powers they have, or if there are any bosses. Heck anything short of an AV standing in the spawn generally doesn't cause a hiccup in pace. The blaster can't say the same. In fact I was able to turn my difficulty up to 0/8 at lvl 20 with that MM and never looked back. Not only that, but the MM can keep an entire team alive through a combination of tanking spawns/absorbing alphas as necessary, drastically reducing enemy capabilities with the storm debuffs, and greatly increase overall team kill speed through offensive debuffs.
That blaster is like a gocart with a rocket booster on the back. It can do one thing and one thing well. The MM is like a Bugatti Veyron and will do everything as well as the gocart and will also do just about everything else imaginable except tow your RV. And if in this analogy the 'RV' is the group of players around you it will also tow your RV...
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You are quite right. No one likes to feel trivialized and MM's are among the most egregious offenders when it comes to making other players feel unneeded. Many of them remind me of pre nerf shield in some ways. It's like, "hey you can follow me around while I do everything." "oh did you guys do something over there? I didn't notice while I killed all these multiple spawns by myself".|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
One thing your rating system does not include is making your teammates feel needed. Blasters score an 11 on that whereas MMs score a 0 or 1. That is not a joke (OK. I am laughing too, but I do mean it seriously as well).
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Fun enough when you are the one with the spotlight on you I suppose. Not so much fun when you are back in the shadows.
But like I said earlier, to fix blasters most people wouldn't like the results because I highly doubt it would be a pure buff scenario.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Range is often underrated, however it is also often overrated. Every AT has to run through the whole mission. The fact that you can kill a spawn from 40 feet away, but the scrapper has to run to it first becomes less important, since after the fight you will have to cover that distance anyway. It is also likely that you will spend time moving around anyway, kiting has been recommended as a blaster tactic in this very thread.
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Yeah, if you use Range to talk about speed of moving through a mission, that doesn't really make sense, and you do have to get into combat range, or course. Only real part where it makes a difference is in the area you can cover with your AOEs, and not having to chase down your targets very much.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Range is often underrated, however it is also often overrated. Every AT has to run through the whole mission. The fact that you can kill a spawn from 40 feet away, but the scrapper has to run to it first becomes less important, since after the fight you will have to cover that distance anyway. It is also likely that you will spend time moving around anyway, kiting has been recommended as a blaster tactic in this very thread.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
On the next exciting episode of Why a Blaster:
Arbegla, who has recovered from his amnesia to discover that he is, in fact, a capybara, must confront his twin over the inheritance to the McDuesh fortune, but how will he handle it when he learns Stratonexus' baby isn't his? Meanwhile, Thinkso interrupts Grey Pilgrim's and Another_Fan's wedding wearing nothing more than a cravat and three ounces of Worchestershire sauce. But is the bride actually in love with the condiment-smeared madman?
Stay tuned for the next page of Why A Blaster, only on CoH Forums.
Unless otherwise stated, I'm talking to Thinkso, and Another_Fan. You skim over your own writing, then skim over mine.
I've mentioned multiple times that the melee attacks on a blaster are there to supplement a blaster, and if you stay in melee you will die. Yet you seem to focus on the 'blasters = pure range' anytime i bring it up. Whats stopping that blaster from attacking in melee when a storm has debuffed the mobs down to nothing?
And Strato, I'm pretty much just hitting quick reply, which uses the last person to reply to, it's not specifically for you, as i feel we both agree on the same thing. Blasters aren't lacking in the least bit. Masterminds have weaknesses just as Blasters do, and i have experience in both. There are plenty of things Masterminds can do that blasters can't, and plenty of things Blasters can do Masterminds cant, Like AoE for example.
Previously in this thread I've listed about 26 or so different AoEs in the blasters 'targeted/placed AoE' arsenal. Using that same metric, a mastermind has available to them.
Mercs ->
Buck Shot, Full Auto x3 (much weaker then the blaster version, but named the same), M30 Grenade x2 (pet and Self power), LRM Rocket, Frag Grenade,
Necro ->
Torrent, Tenebrous Tentacles (minor damage mind you, but still an AoE)
Ninja ->
Fist of of arrows, Fire Breath, Rain of Fire,
Bots ->
Swarm Missiles, Incendiary Missiles, Flamethrower, Full Auto Laser, Photon Grenade x3
Thugs ->
Empty Clips, Blast Clip, Uzi Cone Blaster, Dual Uzi, Empty Clips, Spit Fire, Molotov Cocktail, Fire Bomb,
Demons ->
Crack Whip, Fire Breath x2, Breath of Hellfire x2, Frost Breath, Fireball.
Now, realize Pets have different damage scales then players, 1.000 for melee, and .800 for ranged, and also realize The limited AoE found in Necro and Ninja, both of which only from from the tier 3 pet. So While Masterminds may (post 32) out damage, and out surivive a blaster, its with very specific builds, doing very specific things, and you have to have absolute control over what is going on.
Pets can't handle direct damage very well, due to low hitpoints, and not very many native defenses/resistances. Look at ninjas for example. Or Thugs. Even with constant buff/debuff from the mastermind, it will take quite abit of paying attention to whats going on to be able to achieve what a decked out AoE blaster can do. like a fire/* rad/* arch/*. Plus what about those /dev blasters, with zero melee? are they supposed to jump right into melee and blast away, with their zero melee attacks? Your generalizing, and twisting examples given to prove your points. Yes the travel time between mobs may be trival, but it does add up, and you don't have to use hover to avoid melee. You just simple avoid melee. or Kite your melee attacks.
That tanker doing 152 DPS is really nothing compared to that blaster doing 219, which you completely ignored. Tankers aren't doing anywhere near the damage potential a blaster can, even using your own metric of Pylon DPS.
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The scrapper secondaries are there to supplement a scrapper. And by supplement I mean use all the time. I feel the same way about blaster secondaries. IMO, blasters should generally be relatively close to the action, making sure the opportunity to use their secondary occurs all the time.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
I've mentioned multiple times that the melee attacks on a blaster are there to supplement a blaster, and if you stay in melee you will die. Yet you seem to focus on the 'blasters = pure range' anytime i bring it up. Whats stopping that blaster from attacking in melee when a storm has debuffed the mobs down to nothing?
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Masterminds have weaknesses just as Blasters do, and i have experience in both. There are plenty of things Masterminds can do that blasters can't, and plenty of things Blasters can do Masterminds cant, Like AoE for example.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
So While Masterminds may (post 32) out damage, and out surivive a blaster, its with very specific builds, doing very specific things, and you have to have absolute control over what is going on.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Pets can't handle direct damage very well, due to low hitpoints, and not very many native defenses/resistances. Look at ninjas for example. Or Thugs. Even with constant buff/debuff from the mastermind, it will take quite abit of paying attention to whats going on to be able to achieve what a decked out AoE blaster can do. like a fire/* rad/* arch/*. Plus what about those /dev blasters, with zero melee? are they supposed to jump right into melee and blast away, with their zero melee attacks? Your generalizing, and twisting examples given to prove your points. Yes the travel time between mobs may be trival, but it does add up, and you don't have to use hover to avoid melee. You just simple avoid melee. or Kite your melee attacks.
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Devices has two powers with a range of 25 feet or less. Toe bombing is an important part of my Nrg/Dev play (it may be inefficient, but it makes me cackle with glee, I wish you could slot them for interrupt reduction). It also has two powers designed to allow you to get closer to a spawn without being seen. Sure, Devices is a good choice for a ranger build, but I still think its true strength lies closer to the fight, although I do admit its not true melee range.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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While I love me my buff/debuff and I always credit the buffs and debuffs, I give equal credit to the persons pushing attack powers. Sure, the debuff(s) increased the output of Fire Sword Circle, but the person activating FSC is just as responsible for making dead things.|
Originally Posted by Thinkso
-He talks about the aoe damage of the blaster in a full team, but seems unaware that someone that casts a -res debuff is responsible for everyone's increase in damage. It only takes a tiny bit of forcemeultiplication to eclipse a single damage dealer's contribution in a team. (if you require a detailed explanation just ask, I'll happily explain).
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Buff/Debuff is a busy job done well. You have to attack, buff, debuff, and switch targets from friend to foe on many sets. Even with very good players, I find a lot of buff/debuff teams have lower damage output than I would anticipate, because too few attacks come out fast enough. Human beings sometimes have trouble switching between attacks and buffs. It is less of an issue with debuffs, but even there it is an issue. Unless you play on teams like that regularly, it is more a habit to toss out a debuff and then scan the battlefield for where you might be needed or trying to anticipate which tool you are going to want to use next, while letting the others kill stuff.
Of course, MMs have that issue least of all, because they are blithely attacking the enemy at the same time as they lay down debuffs and scan the battlefield. I wish every time I speed boosted an ally a Lightning Bolt would fly at a random enemy.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Just because I need something silly to blow post 1000 on, can I be an evil twin bent on stealing the fortunes of scrapper Inc from the evil Fan family, and funnel it all to a secret underground lair powered by inf farmers creating knockoff purple recipes at discount prices. Which then is used to fund my front company genetically breeding chibi forum trolls that brainwash through sheer green cuteness any poster they encounter to blame every problem on the devs and not their own playing ability?|
Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
On the next exciting episode of Why a Blaster:
Arbegla, who has recovered from his amnesia to discover that he is, in fact, a capybara, must confront his twin over the inheritance to the McDuesh fortune, but how will he handle it when he learns Stratonexus' baby isn't his? Meanwhile, Thinkso interrupts Grey Pilgrim's and Another_Fan's wedding wearing nothing more than a cravat and three ounces of Worchestershire sauce. But is the bride actually in love with the condiment-smeared madman? Stay tuned for the next page of Why A Blaster, only on CoH Forums. |
>.> <.>
Just asking is all. :P
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When well used Fulcrum Shift can damage cap most ATs. On a team with a Kinetics defender, a damage capped blaster adds a lot more dead stuff than a second Kinetics defender.|
Originally Posted by Thinkso
Ok, show me the point this happens because I don't believe you know what you are talking about. It can happen when comparing something that starts as low as a defender to a blaster, but even then it happens pretty late in the team additions. I'm not convinced that point of convergence is crossed with something that starts with as much damage potential as a MM AND forcemultiplies.
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That being said, caps come into play very rarely and probably aren't worth discussing.
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Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
On the next exciting episode of Why a Blaster:
Arbegla, who has recovered from his amnesia to discover that he is, in fact, a capybara, must confront his twin over the inheritance to the McDuesh fortune, but how will he handle it when he learns Stratonexus' baby isn't his? Meanwhile, Thinkso interrupts Grey Pilgrim's and Another_Fan's wedding wearing nothing more than a cravat and three ounces of Worchestershire sauce. But is the bride actually in love with the condiment-smeared madman? Stay tuned for the next page of Why A Blaster, only on CoH Forums. |
I'm riveted.
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Actually, caps are pretty easy to hit. One kin defender, and everyone is damage capped, one FF and everyone is basically softcapped. Add anything else to that equation, and its much more effective to add a straight damage dealer, due to the fact the buff/debuff will usually be busy buff/debuffing, and unable to purely focus on damage. Plus blasters have higher damage scales, and higher damage caps then most other damage ATs.
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When well used Fulcrum Shift can damage cap most ATs. On a team with a Kinetics defender, a damage capped blaster adds a lot more dead stuff than a second Kinetics defender. That being said, caps come into play very rarely and probably aren't worth discussing. |
You're never realistically going to hit most of the hard caps. The damage cap is the one exception and that almost never happens without a Kinetics character around.
Softcapping defense means minions can't really hit you, but more is better against anything of a higher rank/level. Also, against anything that debuffs defense - which is very common. Also, if your FF gets killed and his toggle bubble vanishes.
Debuffs are practically impossible to cap. Preventing hold / stun / etc is always useful, and mostly short-duration. Recharge, recovery, and regen buffs are always good.
MM's rip through content. All MM's (well I haven't tried /ff, but I've done every primary and/or secondary besides that one to ~40). The only thing that used to slow MM's down was that you had to summon and individually buff all pets at the start of each mission. Both those factors are gone and as a result MMs can clear solo missions among the fastest and safest in the game.
Reward rate is a direct indicator of your ability to deliver damage. The ability to deliver damage is a function of several factors including, but not limited to: damage output, survivability, and movement speed.
We know MM's are the overall slowest moving AT. We know they are 10's or even 100's of times more survivable than blasters. Yet even in missions where survivability isn't stressed they can still clear enemies +/- as fast as a blaster*
*something like a merc/ta is probably slower than a fire/elec when survivability is not a factor, but a nin/storm is way faster than an elec/dev. When survivability enters the equation like the type of situation where a blaster would like to leverage their high target aoe's a MM is often considerably better at successfully delivering damage. Additionally the fastest MM (on SO's or IO's) is faster than the fastest blaster outside of cherrypicking the absolute easiest mobs available.