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Originally Posted by Gilia
LOL he was MOCKING YOU because you keep bringing up other ATs in a random and irrational fashion. Citing powers that other certain sets of other ATs get against Blasters as a whole... You have argued several times that FF/ Defenders are better than Blasters on the basis of Dispersion Bubble alone.
Now you're trying to call him out for something you've been doing... hahaha... |
Let me help you
Indomitable will
Is an ancillary power pool available to every controller and dominator and can be respeced into or out of.
I don't think mock means what you think it does.
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I think you are being overly generous on the damage ratio. There are at least 3 cases where defenders/Corruptors have exactly the same damage scale as blasters. Ice storm Blizzard Rain of fire. If you take a look at the mininukes Defender Full auto/Rain of arrows are at approximately 60% blaster damage. The same holds true for the other defender Archery AOE powers. This goes to the whole damage scale is just a guideline for the powers issue. |
While your correct that those powers at base, do as much damage as a blaster at base, your not factoring in the higher damage cap that a blaster does, which is 100% higher then a defender/corruptor. Which actually makes Thinkso's math more correct, accounting for all instances. And while Ice Storm and Blizzard do the same damage on a defender/corruptor as on a blaster, the other powers in that set, to much less then on a blaster.
Blasters Defenders Corruptors
Ice Bolt 62.6 36.1 41.7
Ice Blast 102.6 59.3 68.4
Frost Breath 87.6 50.6 58.4
Aim 37.5%/62.5% 50%/50% 42.5%/42.5%
Freeze Ray 6.26 3.61 4.17
Ice Storm 116.8 116.8 116.8
Bitter Ice Blast 142.6 82.4 95.1
Bitter Freeze Ray 82.6 47.7 55.1
Blizzard 500.5 500.5 500.5
Thats all base numbers, being pulled from Mids, and not factoring in the higher damage cap blasters have, which when thrown on a team with 1 kin, will be able to hit pretty easily.
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If it does the same damage it brings it to .8 blaster for defenders and corruptors at the cap. 4 vs 5 |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
While your correct that those powers at base, do as much damage as a blaster at base, your not factoring in the higher damage cap that a blaster does, which is 100% higher then a defender/corruptor. Which actually makes Thinkso's math more correct, accounting for all instances. And while Ice Storm and Blizzard do the same damage on a defender/corruptor as on a blaster, the other powers in that set, to much less then on a blaster.
Blasters Defenders Corruptors Ice Bolt 62.6 36.1 41.7 Ice Blast 102.6 59.3 68.4 Frost Breath 87.6 50.6 58.4 Aim 37.5%/62.5% 50%/50% 42.5%/42.5% Freeze Ray 6.26 3.61 4.17 Ice Storm 116.8 116.8 116.8 Bitter Ice Blast 142.6 82.4 95.1 Bitter Freeze Ray 82.6 47.7 55.1 Blizzard 500.5 500.5 500.5 Thats all base numbers, being pulled from Mids, and not factoring in the higher damage cap blasters have, which when thrown on a team with 1 kin, will be able to hit pretty easily. |
at .6 and at the cap its 2.4 vs 5 or 48% rather than 40%.
Anyway as I alluded to above, The scrapper, brute, controller, veat, dominator just about anything winds up being the better choice because they will be bringing similar damage, greater survivability, and other things the blaster doesn't. They also all wind up being more forgiving of the defenders.
on a team if you get to the point where defenders aren't needed anymore, thus all your buffs and debuffs are taken care of, and Blasters can rely on the debuff/buffs for surivial, then it doesnt matter if the scrapper has better, as they are all at the same survivial levels due to the buff/debuffs.
Blasters have bigger AoEs then scrappers, and can generally bring more AoEs to the table, thus increasing the kill speeds faster then a scrapper/brute/SoA etc could.
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I have several blasters. I have two at 50. Fire/Fire or Elec/Elec.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I've recently been thinking about trying out a Blaster as this is the only AT I have never played much. However, I keep seeing people talk about Blasters as having severe issues soloing beginning around level 30. Apparently this is due to mob hit point scaling and blaster damage just not keeping pace.
Is this really the case? Does the Blaster AT literally become mediocre damage and low survivability? That just....doesn't make sense. And if that really does happen, maybe someone needs to smack Castle in the back of the head until he fixes it.  So how about it folks? Are people over-exaggerating the situation? (In case it matters, I would prefer to play an Energy blaster for concept purposes.) |
I leveled them both to 50 before difficulty sliders. The fire guy before epics. Both before the change to defiance. (blaster inherent)
What's the benefit of playing them? High damage output ranged and melee. Yes I feel squishy with my blasters. But I don't feel out classed. I damn sure don't feel out damaged. I have several scrappers, a level 50 brute, high level controllers, defenders, and stalkers. My Fire toon has ridiculous AoE potential and my elec toon is a mix of single target/AoE ranged damaged combined with control and hard hitting melee attacks, So I think I have a fair amount of experience with blasters and non-blaster archetypes. Blasting isn't a cake walk but it's hardly the exerscise in futility that some would have you believe it is. Just remember a little control goes a long way.
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Let me help you.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Let me help you
Indomitable will Is an ancillary power pool available to every controller and dominator and can be respeced into or out of. I don't think mock means what you think it does. |
Not everyone takes Psionic Mastery. You can't rate an entire AT's mez protection based on one of 5 powers in one of 8 possible pools... You should try playing the game before you make such ignorant remarks.
Mock? An insulting mimicry? That close enough for you? He said the same thing you did as to show how foolish you sound? Yeah... I think you might not know what it means.
Check it out, there's this thing called "Google." You like type the word you want to know about it and it shows you stuff on the "web." You have to actually read what comes up, which might be new for you, but I'll help you out a bit:
http://www.google.com/search?client=...utf-8&oe=utf-8
(Click that ^)
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Hasn't anyone ever heard of Power Mastery combined with Medicine pool.
If you feel like Defenders can out-perform a blaster, you should really try expanding your strategies alot more. I have seen blasters do some amazing things that I didn't think were possible
:::StratoNexus:::
Improving the inherent and making defense toggles stay toggled even while under mezz were the two changes that pretty much put Blasters over the top for me. If I "want" to play a Ranged character that is gonna blow up the house. Guess what, I don't think first of any of these ATs ---> (Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, Dominators, or Masterminds).
I pull up that screen and choose BLASTER !
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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The problem is at that point you still have other choices. The scrapper is still more survivable, the brute fully buffed is ridiculously more survivable. Brutes and scrappers at their damage cap outputting damage numbers that make everyone blasters included.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
on a team if you get to the point where defenders aren't needed anymore, thus all your buffs and debuffs are taken care of, and Blasters can rely on the debuff/buffs for surivial, then it doesnt matter if the scrapper has better, as they are all at the same survivial levels due to the buff/debuffs.
Blasters have bigger AoEs then scrappers, and can generally bring more AoEs to the table, thus increasing the kill speeds faster then a scrapper/brute/SoA etc could. |
Here are a few examples at the damage cap
Claws
Spin/Brute = 526 pts of damage/target
Eviscerate/Brute = 614 pts of damage/target
Footstomp/Brute = 400 pts of damage/target
KO blow/brute = 999 pts of damage single target
spin /Scrapper= 540 points of damage/target
Eviscerate/Scrapper = 715.2 damage/target
Fire Sword Circle/scrapper = 620 pts/target
Incinerate/scrapper = 860 single target
Blaster Fire
Fire Breath= 545/target
Fire Ball = 394/target
Blaze = 944.5 single target
Fire Manipulation
Fire Sword Circle =500/target
Blaster Assault Rifle
Flamethrower = 605
Buckshot = 330
slug = 610 single target
Ignite is a discussion in itself
The only thing you can say is some of the blaster attacks are bigger, some manage to hit more targets, most have range.
I really like my blasters, but I am really aware of where they get shortchanged.
Oh and before anyone says I cherry picked, I did, I tried to go for the best available on both sides.
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Not every controller takes psionic mastery because for them its gilding the lily. They can already prevent just about anything from getting the chance to mez them.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
Let me help you.
Not everyone takes Psionic Mastery. You can't rate an entire AT's mez protection based on one of 5 powers in one of 8 possible pools... You should try playing the game before you make such ignorant remarks. Mock? An insulting mimicry? That close enough for you? He said the same thing you did as to show how foolish you sound? Yeah... I think you might not know what it means. Check it out, there's this thing called "Google." You like type the word you want to know about it and it shows you stuff on the "web." You have to actually read what comes up, which might be new for you, but I'll help you out a bit: http://www.google.com/search?client=...utf-8&oe=utf-8 (Click that ^) |
Its only mockery if its insulting.
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I think you read a different post than mine to draw that conclusion. I certainly didn't say anything like that. At about 6 defenders you are starting to approach the point where they are interchangable from a damage perspective, but that means ignoring whatever else the defender is bringing of value, which is almost always more than a blaster will bring.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
And others just can't appreciate a good AT.
Using the math Thinkso did, once you start getting above 4 defenders (half a team) its more effective to add blasters then it is to add more defenders, assuming the same equal force multipliers. So, in a normal team settings, anything above 4 buff/debuffs, and your much better off picking up that blaster then you are anything else. |
That also isn't necessarily saying that adding a blaster is even the best addition at that point. I mean sure a heavy buff/debuff team usually has no issues diving head first into everything the game has to offer, but sometimes it is still nice to have a scrapper or brute to lead the charge. It's not like brutes and scrappers are much behind blasters if at all when it comes to damage. It mostly depends on the combination in question. And having a focal point for all/most agro further frees up the defenders to go willy nilly, which may not always be the case if the agro is being dispersed like it may be with a blaster in that spot.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I think you are being overly generous on the damage ratio.
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But that was largely the point. I wanted to highlight is that even being generous with the numbers in favor of blasters the power of forcemultiplication on a whole team is tremendous. It is very difficult for a single damage source to equal it let alone be more valuable
It's difficult for what is supposed to be the highest to do against the lowest damage AT in the game. It only gets harder when you up the anti with the additional firepower something like corrs bring.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Not every controller takes psionic mastery because for them its gilding the lily. They can already prevent just about anything from getting the chance to mez them.
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I took indom will on my fire/storm troller not because of any apparent need, but rather because I run a lot of offensive toggles and having them drop was an annoyance. Everything was always debuffed or otherwise mitigated into the ground where being mezzed rarely put me in trouble...it was just bothersome.
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Definitely. Personally I found them to be even more fun before the new version of defiance, but at that point in time there were determined to be underpowered and in need of a sizable buff. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Why A Blaster? Cause it's fun!
 |
They were certainly less effective back then, but then again:
effectiveness =! fun
I mean being effective can lead to having fun, but it doesn't always have to anymore than being less effective leads to not having fun.
One of my favorite toons is my energy/rad corruptor. It's pretty junky compared to my fire/traps, ice/kin, and fire/cold for the most part, but it is pretty fun to play most of the time.
That said, being able to separate the subjective from the objective is quite difficult. I loved blasters pre defiance buff, they were crazy fun for me, but I was still aware that they were not nearly as capable as other AT's. That didn't subtract from me enjoying them, heck at times it may have even heightened my enjoyment by playing an underdog. While buffed quite a bit with the new defiance they are still quite short of the mark relative to the other AT's in the game, but that doesn't necessarily have to impact their fun factor.
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Look at your own math there Thinkso:|
Originally Posted by Thinkso
I think you read a different post than mine to draw that conclusion. I certainly didn't say anything like that. At about 6 defenders you are starting to approach the point where they are interchangable from a damage perspective, but that means ignoring whatever else the defender is bringing of value, which is almost always more than a blaster will bring.
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If we say that a defender does 40% of the damage of an individual blaster (bit generous to the blaster there) and we look at a very simplified case of everyone using an aoe attack (40 dam for def and 100 dam for blaster) and each defender with a -res power. 8 Blasters = 8*100 = 800 1 def+ 7 blasters = (40+(7*100))*1.3 = 962 4 def + 4 blasters = ((40*4)+(4*100))*2.2 = 1232 6 defs+ 2 blasters = ((6*40)+(2*100)*2.8 = 1232 7 defs + 1 blasters = ((7*40)+100))*3.1 = 1178 8 Defs = (40*8)*3.4 = 1088 |
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Here are a few examples at the damage cap
Claws Spin/Brute = 526 pts of damage/target Eviscerate/Brute = 614 pts of damage/target Footstomp/Brute = 400 pts of damage/target KO blow/brute = 999 pts of damage single target spin /Scrapper= 540 points of damage/target Eviscerate/Scrapper = 715.2 damage/target Fire Sword Circle/scrapper = 620 pts/target Incinerate/scrapper = 860 single target Blaster Fire Fire Breath= 545/target Fire Ball = 394/target Blaze = 944.5 single target Fire Manipulation Fire Sword Circle =500/target Blaster Assault Rifle Flamethrower = 605 Buckshot = 330 slug = 610 single target Ignite is a discussion in itself The only thing you can say is some of the blaster attacks are bigger, some manage to hit more targets, most have range. I really like my blasters, but I am really aware of where they get shortchanged. Oh and before anyone says I cherry picked, I did, I tried to go for the best available on both sides. |
While you did cherry pick your powers, stating its the best from both sides, lets take a moment and look at the bigger picture.
For example, the Most AoEs you can get out of a blaster is probably a rad/fire/levi or fire/fire/levi build. Lets see the math behind the fire/fire/levi, assuming the damage cap, and factoring in the target cap as well. I will be adding in the t9 nukes, due to the fact that merely popping a blue, and hitting 'consume' will refill your end bar, and by the time you burn through it again, your recovery is back.
Following Paragonwiki equation for figuring out damage caps found here-> http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Damage
The math will go like this:
(base) * (damage cap) = X * (target cap) = X * (.95, chance to miss) = total AoE damage.
For Damage auras, it will be on a damage per tick basis.
Radius math will merely use the (pi)r^2 to figure out the ft^2 of the blast radius.
Fire/fire/levi:
Fireball -> 78.8 * 4 = 315.2 * 16 = 5,043.2 *.95 = 4,791 damage in 706.86ft^2 Sphere
Fire Breath -> 109.8 * 4 = 439.2 * 10 = 4,392 * .95 = 4,172.4 damage in 418.88ft^2 Cone
Rain of Fire -> 125.1 * 4 = 500.4 * 16 = 8,006.4 * .95 = 7,606.08 damage in 1,963.49ft^2 Sphere
Inferno -> 472.2 * 4 = 1,888.8 * 16 = 30,220.8 * .95 = 28,709.76 damage in 1,963.49ft^2 Sphere
Combustion -> 83.4 * 4 = 333.6 * 10 = 3,336 * .95 = 3,169.2 damage in 706.86ft^2 Sphere
Fire Sword Circle -> 99.5 * 4 = 398 * 10 = 3,980 * .95 = 3,781 damage in 314.16ft^2 Sphere
Blazing Aura -> 11.1 * 4 = 44.4 * 10 = 444 * .95 = 421.8 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Consume -> 44.5 * 4 = 178 * 10 = 1,780 * .95 = 1,691 damage in 1,256.64ft^2 Sphere
Burn -> 132.4 * 4 = 529.6 * 5 = 2,648 * .95 = 2,515 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Hot Feet -> 13.9 * 4 = 55.6 * 10 = 556 * .95 = 528.2 damage in 1,256.64ft^2 Sphere
School of Sharks -> 58.5 * 4 = 234 * 10 = 2,340 * .95 = 2,223 damage in 654.5ft^2 Cone
Bile Spray -> 75.1 * 4 = 300.4 * 16 = 4,806.4 * .95 = 4,566.08 damage in 942.48ft^2 Cone
12 AoEs total, 2 of which are damage auras, with 3 Cones, 5 PBAoE, 1 Ranged AoE, and 1 Targeted AoE
Now, onto the a Scrapper with the most AoEs, lets see, Spine/fire/dark it is.
The values I'm taking for the base damage are straight from Mids, which already factors in the average crit damage per attack.
Spine Burst -> 82 * 4 = 328 * 10 = 3,280 * .95 = 3,116 damage in 706.86ft^2 Sphere
Quills -> 10.3 * 4 = 41.2 * 10 = 412 * .95 = 391.4 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Ripper -> 167 * 4 = 668 * 5 = 3,340 * .95 = 3,173 damage in 38.48ft^2 Cone
Throw Spines -> 100 * 4 = 400 * 10 = 4,000 * .95 = 3,800 damage in 706.86ft^2 Cone
Blazing Aura -> 13.8 *4 = 55.2 * 10 = 552 * .95 = 524.4 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Consume -> 25 * 4 = 100 * 10 = 1,000 * .95 = 950 damage in 1,256.64ft^2 Sphere
Burn -> 133.5 * 4 = 534 * 5 = 2,670 * .95 = 2,536.5 damage in 201.06ft^2 Sphere
Rise of the Pheonix -> 664.3 * 16 = 10,628.8 * .95 = 10,097.36 damage in 1,963.49ft^2 Sphere
Torrent -> 28.8 * 4 = 115.2 * 10 = 1,152 * .95 = 1,094.4 damage in 942.48ft^2 Cone
Night Fall -> 35.2 * 4 = 140.8 * 10 = 1,408 * .95 = 1,337.6 damage in 628.32ft^2 Cone
Tenebrous Tentacles -> 67.3 * 4 = 269.2 * 10 = 2,692 * .95 = 2,557.4 damage in 418.88ft^2 Cone
11 AoEs, 2 of which are damage auras, 4 Ranged Cones, 1 Melee Cone, 3 PBAoE, and a self rez PBAoE power, which is slotted with 3 level 50 dam IOs but if otherwise unaffected by damage buffs, due to having to use it while dead.
It looks like the fire/fire/levi Blaster, assuming survivability is no longer an issue, will clearly out damage a spine/fire/dark scrapper, due to increased number of AoE, larger radius, and higher target caps.
Now, I know what your about to say, that once those AoEs are thrown, there's always a boss left over, and I will completely agree with you. Still focusing on the fire/fire/levi and the spine/fire/dark lets take a look at their single target damage, which would be used to take out the remaining bosses after the AoE volley tears up the minions and LTs in the group. I'm going to assume that the AoEs have taken about 50% off the bosses total hitpoints for this explanation, which is about right, considering chances to miss, and target caps being hit.
Fire/fire/levi Single target damage break down, still maintaining the damage cap:
Flares -> 63.2 * 4 = 253.6 damage, from 80ft away
Fire Blast -> 92.6 * 4 = 370.4 damage, from 80ft away
Blaze -> 188.9 * 4 = 755.6 damage, from 40ft away
Fire Sword -> 131.2 * 4 = 524.8 damage, melee range
Knockout Blow -> 198 * 4 = 792 damage, melee range
Spine/fire/dark Single target damage break down, still maintaining the damage cap:
Barb Swipe -> 63.2 * 4 = 253.6 damage, melee range
Lunge -> 88.8 * 4 = 355.2 damage, melee range
Impale -> 137.9 * 4 = 551.6 damage, from 40ft away
Dark Blast -> 71.9 * 4 = 287.6 damage, from 80ft away
And it still looks like the fire/fire/levi blaster can pull ahead of damage in the single target area. So comparing the 2 best case scenarios of AoE happy powersets, with single target chains to clean up the leftovers, when survivability is no longer an issue due to buff/debuffs, the blaster pulls ahead.
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Guess I should have showed more combos|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Look at your own math there Thinkso:
Those bolded numbers are identical, thus, once you hit 4 defenders, its better to run with more damage, then to add more defenders to the mix. |
5 defs+3 blasters = 1250 damage.
So the addition of a 5 def > adding the first blaster.
So like I said earlier it isn't until you are filling the last spots that raw damage becomes preferable. And that entirely ignores the additional benefits the debuffer is bringing, which is about the same as ignoring an elephant standing next to your sofa, but oh well.
So under this simply model 5 defs+ 3 blasters is the highest output.
If one were to be a bit more generous to defs and pretend they did 50% as much damage with the same attack the highest output combo would be:
4 defs + 4 blasters = 1320
5 defs +3 blasters = 1375
6 defs+ 2 blasters = 1400
7 defs+ 1 blaster = 1395
8 defs = 1360
Under both examples though the difference between 5 defs + 3 blasters and 7 defs+1 blaster is insignificant from a damage perspective. I highly doubt the same can be said from a mitigative perspective, or if one looked at any of the other buff/debuffs those extra 2 defs bring compared to the 2 blasters.
And once again this is an example involving the lowest damage AT in the game. A similar look at corrs shows that you might give a blaster the last spot on your team if you are feeling nice, but that's about it.
What these models clearly show (to me at least) is that:
A. Forcemultiplication is probably too strong in this game - which iirc Castle has even comment on in agreement
B. The damage "juggernaut" blasters aren't a big enough hammer being swung. If they were actually damage juggernauts there would be little question that adding one is the superior damage choice because they would be a huge force to be multiplied.
The fact that a puny defender has such strong forcemultiplication that they can take something that does 40% as much raw damage and turn it in to more damage than the blaster would add supports both premises pretty well.
The game is beyond easy and if you have to fill a thread with numbers to prove/disprove a blaster being viable then bravo
Why A Blaster?
Cause they are fun.
/endthread
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And once again the ability to separate subjective and objective is a skill that many people lack. My enjoyment of the AT doesn't preclude the absence of my ability to objectively discern where the AT lacks relative to what else is available in the game. For some people it does.|
Originally Posted by Soho
The game is beyond easy and if you have to fill a thread with numbers to prove/disprove a blaster being viable then bravo
Why A Blaster? Cause they are fun. /endthread |
The OP specifically asked " Does the Blaster AT literally become mediocre damage and low survivability?"
His questions have little to do with the subjective aspects of the AT do they? What does the AT being fun have to do with their damage and/or survivability? What better way than via numbers would you suggest assauging his requests for information about their damage and/or survivability?
Unfortunately your conclusion that you find the AT fun should also coincide with the conclusion of this discussion is about the same as me saying that I enjoy driving, therefore I should be able to get an excellent mortgage rate on my house. They make about as much sense.
I apologize if you feel that your statement should have had more impact, but being that it is irrelevant to the subject of this thread...
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(Aww cute *tickle tickle* dude it's CoH not some raid heavy game where you need to min/max and get the right gear.)|
Originally Posted by Thinkso
And once again the ability to separate subjective and objective is a skill that many people lack. My enjoyment of the AT doesn't preclude the absence of my ability to objectively discern where the AT lacks relative to what else is available in the game. For some people it does.
The OP specifically asked " Does the Blaster AT literally become mediocre damage and low survivability?" His questions have little to do with the subjective aspects of the AT do they? What does the AT being fun have to do with their damage and/or survivability? What better way than via numbers would you suggest assauging his requests for information about their damage and/or survivability? Unfortunately your conclusion that you find the AT fun should also coincide with the conclusion of this discussion is about the same as me saying that I enjoy driving, therefore I should be able to get an excellent mortgage rate on my house. They make about as much sense. I apologize if you feel that your statement should have had more impact, but being that it is irrelevant to the subject of this thread... |
Really?
The impact of my statement is the fact that the game is beyond easy.
Getting into a debate as to the damage and/or survivability is futile at best.
Acting as if a few percent of damage here or there will do when compared to other ATs really does not matter. With the ease of play in this game just about any combo of powerset is viable. Just about any AT is also viable.
It is not like there are any encounters in this game that require some sort of epic set up. So yes I say cause they are fun play what you like and enjoy it.
The OP specifically asked " Does the Blaster AT literally become mediocre damage and low survivability?"
To the above I say no. I say no because this is a casual game and if you enjoy the AT that's all that matter. If you are not having fun cause you feel you die a lot or your damage is low, then don't play a blaster.
But anyway let me let you get back to being a fan boy and not bother with this thread again.
take care
P.S. Play what is fun for you. If you go by numbers then we would all be playing the same few power sets and ATs.
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I would beg to differ strongly with the highlighted statement. Having played every "un-armored" AT many, many times, the new defiance combined with no-toggle-drop helps Blasters tremendously. I have no doubt that many Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors and even Masterminds would argue that they are in last place in that mezz-susceptable line. I KNOW my Empath will argue this one with you.|
Originally Posted by Thinkso
...the buff/debuff AT's (and doms) have powerful tools to mitigate/negate mez before it ever becomes a reactionary issue. Blaster defiance while a major advantage over having nothing still leaves the AT as by far the most susceptible to mez.
I took indom will on my fire/storm troller not because of any apparent need, but rather because I run a lot of offensive toggles and having them drop was an annoyance. Everything was always debuffed or otherwise mitigated into the ground where being mezzed rarely put me in trouble...it was just bothersome. |
From my own personal experience I have two characters that soloed Nearly all the way from 1-50.
My Emp-Electric (level 45 solo) and my Energy-Devices (level 47 solo). And I can tell you without a doubt that the Empath had some advantages over the blaster, namely trouble mobs like Paragon Protectors, Fake Nemesis, and Sappers which he could hold and prevent them from doing nasty things with more efficiency, because Tesla Cage is more reliable on non-boss mobs than Power Push, but BY FAR, my Blaster leveled faster, did insanely more damage (which is why he levelled faster) and suffered much LESS (Yes I mean less) from Mezz effects than my defender during this same time period.
You can cherry pick defender combinations which will solo better and blaster combinations which have less "anti-mezz" if you like, but you cannot convince me that Blasters have it worse than any other AT regarding mezz effects. And this is simply because when you strip away all (offensive)powers and look at base HPs, Inherents and Base defensive powers, Blasters beat Everything except : Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers and to some extent Doms and Controllers. That still leaves non-traps/FF/sonic Defs/Corrs/MMs.
I will not argue with you regarding the offensive contribution of Blasters versus all other ATs, because I really only care about balance from a few limited gauges (Fun, Solo-ability, and Team Support), but specifically in regards to MEZZ susceptability I cannot support your conclusion.
Blasters are in the back half of the line, but they are NOT at the end of the line anymore.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Thats like me asking is the economy good, and you answering why yes because its sunny and warm today.
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Originally Posted by Soho
The OP specifically asked " Does the Blaster AT literally become mediocre damage and low survivability?" To the above I say no. I say no because this is a casual game and if you enjoy the AT that's all that matter. If you are not having fun cause you feel you die a lot or your damage is low, then don't play a blaster. But anyway let me let you get back to being a fan boy and not bother with this thread again. take care P.S. Play what is fun for you. If you go by numbers then we would all be playing the same few power sets and ATs. |
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I personally don't find them short of any mark.|
Originally Posted by Thinkso
Definitely. Personally I found them to be even more fun before the new version of defiance, but at that point in time there were determined to be underpowered and in need of a sizable buff.
They were certainly less effective back then, but then again: effectiveness =! fun I mean being effective can lead to having fun, but it doesn't always have to anymore than being less effective leads to not having fun. One of my favorite toons is my energy/rad corruptor. It's pretty junky compared to my fire/traps, ice/kin, and fire/cold for the most part, but it is pretty fun to play most of the time. That said, being able to separate the subjective from the objective is quite difficult. I loved blasters pre defiance buff, they were crazy fun for me, but I was still aware that they were not nearly as capable as other AT's. That didn't subtract from me enjoying them, heck at times it may have even heightened my enjoyment by playing an underdog. While buffed quite a bit with the new defiance they are still quite short of the mark relative to the other AT's in the game, but that doesn't necessarily have to impact their fun factor. |
Then again I find buffing/debuffing to be boring as spit. So take my comments for what you will.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Well part of why I tried to pick the best I could from both sides, and demonstrating they were the same order of magnitude was to not get in to saying, If you add this blaster, you will be better off than adding that X. I am also not going to go through every power combination by hand. That's Castle's job, and maybe one day he will be able to figure out how to extract his data from that spreadsheet where its all stored* (HA) |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
This will all be under the assumption that survivability is no longer an issue, due to outside buff/debuffs on a team environment.
While you did cherry pick your powers, stating its the best from both sides, lets take a moment and look at the bigger picture. For example, the Most AoEs you can get out of a blaster is probably a rad/fire/levi or fire/fire/levi build. Lets see the math behind the fire/fire/levi, assuming the damage cap, and factoring in the target cap as well. I will be adding in the t9 nukes, due to the fact that merely popping a blue, and hitting 'consume' will refill your end bar, and by the time you burn through it again, your recovery is back. It looks like the fire/fire/levi Blaster, assuming survivability is no longer an issue, will clearly out damage a spine/fire/dark scrapper, due to increased number of AoE, larger radius, and higher target caps. |
The problem your argument hits is if you are adding particular builds, adding particular corruptors easily wins adding particular defenders also easily wins. /Ice defenders, and Fire,ICE corruptors do the exact same AoE damage with their rain powers that blasters do. In the case of a corruptor at the damage cap their blizzard is going to be much more than a blaster could ever hope to do because of scourge.
Re: Doing the damage at range: Range is just not an advantage here. There is always the 5% chance a debuff, mezz or ridiculously large AOE lands. A blaster doing their damage at range with the buffer/ debuffer group brings that back to them. A scrapper, brute or even a tank is doing their damage away from everyone else and they are keeping the aggro with them. Adding a controller or two just means there is no aggro to go anywhere.
Just a little humorous reflection on our discussion here.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/newre...eply&p=3234359
As I type this, there is exactly one team that had a blaster included in it, and that was for vengeance bait.
I really like my blasters, I have over 600 badges on my favorite. But I am painfully aware of where they come up short. If anything they should have their description changed from glass cannons to the "Solo challenge AT"
Cannons is just out and out misleading.
*Its a reference to a previous excuse on why the developers didn't actually balance things. Supposedly the server engine reads the data directly from a spreadsheet, that castle hasn't been able to figure out how to export from so other tools can be used to analyze it. (Didn't make any sense to me either)
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Ha, now that was totally worth coming back to this thread for. Though I'm also a little disturbed now...|
Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
On the next exciting episode of Why a Blaster:
Arbegla, who has recovered from his amnesia to discover that he is, in fact, a capybara, must confront his twin over the inheritance to the McDuesh fortune, but how will he handle it when he learns Stratonexus' baby isn't his? Meanwhile, Thinkso interrupts Grey Pilgrim's and Another_Fan's wedding wearing nothing more than a cravat and three ounces of Worchestershire sauce. But is the bride actually in love with the condiment-smeared madman? Stay tuned for the next page of Why A Blaster, only on CoH Forums. |
Meh, it shook my depression from all the down on Blaster talk in this thread, and the down on inherent Fitness talk in other threads. For that, I thank you.
I probably won't be able to respond again for awhile due to my busy work schedule, but Another Fan, that post is only an unfair comparison if Blaster ranges are way far off of other ATs. I've argued plenty before that they are within acceptable ranges of performance (for a lot of players and the devs, even if certain min/maxxing of other ATs can also make for some strong damage output). At that point, people are taking what AT they prefer and running with it.
Some people prefer Scrappers over Brutes and vice versa. It's more of a feel thing than a real performance change. If I'm in the mood for Blasting, I couldn't grab a Corruptor, let alone an MM. They all play different and offer different benefits, as well as different routes to fun.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
If a mastermind says that ,you just have to tell him ,"Stop standing next to the pets".
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I would beg to differ strongly with the highlighted statement. Having played every "un-armored" AT many, many times, the new defiance combined with no-toggle-drop helps Blasters tremendously. I have no doubt that many Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors and even Masterminds would argue that they are in last place in that mezz-susceptable line. I KNOW my Empath will argue this one with you.
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Quote:
Now THIS I agree with.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
If a mastermind says that ,you just have to tell him ,"Stop standing next to the pets".
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A mastermind when played correctly shouldn't be ANY WHERE near anything that can mez them, just by virtue of how their AT is designed.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
God this thread is like a glorious train wreck of trolling, the corpses of poor discarded spreadsheets everywhere! Masterminds next to be lowered into the pit of sweet numbery doom! Doooom! And who is going to save Aura's baby from being abducted and shipped off to the CoX sanitarium for the mathematically insane, raised to be a number drone for all eternity!
Stay tuned for the next riviting episode of why a blaster!
*cough* ahem, that is, I guess I can stop having too much fun with my blasters again for a sec. *Notes a bit more trolling* Seriously though AF what is it about people having fun that gets your panties in such a knot? I think I'll those reds you keep popping every minute on your brute are going right to your head.
And in an attempt to interject a little dose of reality into the numbers again. here's a little question for everyone in general. But Thinkso and AF in particular. Oh and were you really so desperate to be "right" (Whatever constitutes that in this train wreck) That you missed that "Real world" factors were that lovely little list above of all the things that can happen on a team in a the "real fake world" Just curious.
Annnnyway....
Short of a planned supergroup event, or a time when defenders arrange all teams through the forums like the perfect storm parties. When was the last time you were actually on a PuG that had more then 4 defenders in it? Trollers and corrs not counting if we want to use thinkso's lil hypothetical 40 vs 100. Also there's a lil flaw in the fact you assume every def has a -res power. Most defs set have at least 1 yes, but still a flaw in the numbers vs "Real world" experiences in PuG'ing
When was the last time you met a PuG or TF leader that says "Hey you know what'd be great, all defenders, who needs that damage a blaster brings!" Last time I checked most (including myself) Prefer a good AT mix to bring everyone's abilities to the plate, or just 8 warm bodies to go thrash some content given how you don't need any kind of holy trinity to do so. (Thank....god)
See above example where I brought up the PuG that trashed Synapse in under 2 hours. Just going by your own logic, would it have been done faster if we'd had more defs? At that point it would have been overkill, no one, even poor squishy me [/sarcasm] had any issue surviving whatsoever. And any -res you added probably would have benifited me as the lone blaster the most, given how many PBAoe I was flinging about around the brute. Due to the fact that besides the ar/storm corr I was the only one with any real aoe's at all.
Now I know clockwork aren't the best example to run with in that regard, I'll admit it myself. But still, from my viewpoint we actually slowed down more when we lost the elec/elec blaster that was man 8 over the psi/emp who was man 7.
Moving rrrright along.
When was the last time anyone actually took the time to try and make an all def or even a 4 def team without driving others insane waiting to go? Or knew that many defs actually looking for a team?
When was the last time you found a pug that through just through -res or buffs like fort was able to get anywhere near the damage cap?
And as others have stated given that the base line 0/x1 is easy to the point where any combination of AT's is viable. Why is that much force multiplier even needed outside anything extreme like a mothership raid or maybe the CoP trial?
And finally. When was the last time we tried to make an argument about blasters being weak with a world where apparently only defenders and blasters exist in the magic numbers?
You guys can lay out the math all you want, in fact you're a bit off, just a quick check of mids puts most base def attacks probably higher then 40% of blaster, probably closer to 50% in some instances such as when i looked at archery and rain of arrow.
Claim all you want that it somehow puts blasters at the back compared to others, but a majority of players really don't pay attention to min-max 101. And even less actually probably read the forums, so in terms of really convincing anyone here? It's about as futile as doing a certain activity I can't mention on the forums into the wind.
Their "Subjective" experience? I'd wager (since we can't opinions mixed with facts right?) that they're still having fun playing what they want, blasters included. Lord knows I am.
That and I'll make a pretty good guess their "Objective" experiences in terms of effectiveness inside the game and outside the schoolhouse may differ from yours as well.
Oh and since he got brought up earlier hehe.
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.
-Napoleon Bonaparte-
Substitute ribbon for spreadsheet and I think that sums this thread up pretty well. Hmm or could just mean my giant orange numbers, I dunno... Heck either way I'm still having fun, so who gives a flip?
Mmm shiny ribbon, I'm gonna get it!
*Chases it back out of the thread all cat like*
If we say that a defender does 40% of the damage of an individual blaster (bit generous to the blaster there) and we look at a very simplified case of everyone using an aoe attack (40 dam for def and 100 dam for blaster) and each defender with a -res power.
8 Blasters = 8*100 = 800
1 def+ 7 blasters = (40+(7*100))*1.3 = 962
4 def + 4 blasters = ((40*4)+(4*100))*2.2 = 1232
6 defs+ 2 blasters = ((6*40)+(2*100)*2.8 = 1232
7 defs + 1 blasters = ((7*40)+100))*3.1 = 1178
8 Defs = (40*8)*3.4 = 1088
There are at least 3 cases where defenders/Corruptors have exactly the same damage scale as blasters.
Ice storm
Blizzard
Rain of fire.
If you take a look at the mininukes
Defender Full auto/Rain of arrows are at approximately 60% blaster damage.
The same holds true for the other defender Archery AOE powers. This goes to the whole damage scale is just a guideline for the powers issue.