Concerning the general "skill" remarks absurdity; whether said in jest, ignorance, or ***hattery, THE FACT IS that players familiarizing themselves with game mechanics, strategies, practicing situational awareness, and any other factors that sum up "skill" can and do leverage greater performance with -any- AT.
I think most here are smart enough to know this, if not admit it.
However, I certainly wouldn't argue that skill can leverage more for some ATs than others...
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That post belongs in the "Why A Moderator" thread.
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Originally Posted by Dragonkat
Long post that was meant to bother people
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LOL okay that was funny.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That post belongs in the "Why A Moderator" thread.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Stop making me agree with you!!!!! |
Originally Posted by AstaticOne
Concerning the general "skill" remarks absurdity; whether said in jest, ignorance, or ***hattery, THE FACT IS that players familiarizing themselves with game mechanics, strategies, practicing situational awareness, and any other factors that sum up "skill" can and do leverage greater performance with -any- AT.
I think most here are smart enough to know this, if not admit it. However, I certainly wouldn't argue that skill can leverage more for some ATs than others... |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I think you meant this thread
Which has very specific rules which require 3 melee ATs at the very least. Thus its not a very good example. Now, stating this
May be true, assuming someone else is able to throw the buff/debuffs to keep the /ice defender or ice/corruptor at said damage cap. And that Ice/ corruptor or /ice defender will only out perform a blaster that refuses to use their secondary or APP to supplement their damage. And again, once the AoEs have hit, the blaster pulls much further ahead on single target damage. Scourge is a very nice inherent, but on a team; it's not nearly as useful due to the sheer amount of AoE damage all hitting at once.
Stating that range is a negative due to the 5% chance to be hit, and ranged attacks following a blaster is under rating your down survivability scenario. If you have enough survivability due to buff/debuffs where that blaster can use all their AoEs, most of which are PBAoE in relative safety.
If a single one of those defenders/controllers/corruptors which are providing those buff/debuffs have a heal, then it completely negates the worry of actually being hit, as long as those hits don't one shot a PC, which there are mechanics in place to prevent that from happening.
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| The problem your argument hits is if you are adding particular builds, adding particular corruptors easily wins adding particular defenders also easily wins. /Ice defenders, and Fire, ICE corruptors do the exact same AoE damage with their rain powers that blasters do. In the case of a corruptor at the damage cap their blizzard is going to be much more than a blaster could ever hope to do because of scourge. |
Stating that range is a negative due to the 5% chance to be hit, and ranged attacks following a blaster is under rating your down survivability scenario. If you have enough survivability due to buff/debuffs where that blaster can use all their AoEs, most of which are PBAoE in relative safety.
If a single one of those defenders/controllers/corruptors which are providing those buff/debuffs have a heal, then it completely negates the worry of actually being hit, as long as those hits don't one shot a PC, which there are mechanics in place to prevent that from happening.
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If that Mastermind is using his secondary effectively, he can't stay completely out of harms way. The longest range debuff a Mastermind has is only 90ft, which is tar patch. Everything else varies between PBAoE (Anguishing Cry from Pain Domination) to 80 ft. Which the longest range is 90ft for some of the pet attacks (Robots) shortest being melee range (ninjas, zombies) So for that mastermind to completely avoid being in combat, they have to stand away from their pets, which could prevent from being able to buff said pets, and also be out of range of their debuffs they could be placing on the enemy.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
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I've never run into a situation where my thugs/dark mm has to be right next to a mezzer. With or without tar patch.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
If that Mastermind is using his secondary effectively, he can't stay completely out of harms way. The longest range debuff a Mastermind has is only 90ft, which is tar patch. Everything else varies between PBAoE (Anguishing Cry from Pain Domination) to 80 ft. Which the longest range is 90ft for some of the pet attacks (Robots) shortest being melee range (ninjas, zombies) So for that mastermind to completely avoid being in combat, they have to stand away from their pets, which could prevent from being able to buff said pets, and also be out of range of their debuffs they could be placing on the enemy.
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I must be doing something unique.
Mez is neither an issue for my blasters or my mms.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I didn't say you had to be right next to a mezzer, just that you can't stay completely out of harms way. Pets have a higher threat modifier then the mastermind, so they can keep most mobs focused on them, but assuming, as Another_Fan has, that masterminds can completely avoid combat, while still delivering massive debuffs/buffs is just not possible.
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What would make a good example ? If it didn't require melee ats I doubt it would have helped the situation.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
I think you meant this thread Which has very specific rules which require 3 melee ATs at the very least. Thus its not a very good example. Now, stating this
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May be true, assuming someone else is able to throw the buff/debuffs to keep the /ice defender or ice/corruptor at said damage cap. And that Ice/ corruptor or /ice defender will only out perform a blaster that refuses to use their secondary or APP to supplement their damage. And again, once the AoEs have hit, the blaster pulls much further ahead on single target damage. Scourge is a very nice inherent, but on a team; it's not nearly as useful due to the sheer amount of AoE damage all hitting at once. |
In this case the blaster is gaining an additional 25% relative to the buff/debuff from being at the cap.
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| Stating that range is a negative due to the 5% chance to be hit, and ranged attacks following a blaster is under rating your down survivability scenario. |
If you are going to have the blaster move into PBAOE position to use them you are undercutting your argument about the blaster being superior because their attacks are ranged.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
I didn't say you had to be right next to a mezzer, just that you can't stay completely out of harms way. Pets have a higher threat modifier then the mastermind, so they can keep most mobs focused on them, but assuming, as Another_Fan has, that masterminds can completely avoid combat, while still delivering massive debuffs/buffs is just not possible.
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| Pets | enemy | * Mastermind | | pets | enemy | | *mastermind Or in glorious ascii cinema | | M P E | | | | | M P E | | | | | M P E | ^ Mastermind is making an executive decision to investigate his workforce's progress and see if his workers comp premium is going up.
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Again, the problem with that statement doesn't take into consideration that fact that some debuffs on a mastermind have shorter ranges, and some even require melee in order to execute. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
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| Pets | enemy | * Mastermind | | pets | enemy | | *mastermind Or in glorious ascii cinema | | M P E | | | | | M P E | | | | | M P E | ^ Mastermind is making an executive decision to investigate his workforce's progress and see if his workers comp premium is going up. |
/dark has a PBAoE heal, which is pretty darn useless to use unless its affecting your pets, which may be in melee range. Darkest Night can pull aggro onto the mastermind, so even at range, they will be taking hits. Shadow fall is PBAoE, and again is only useful to the mastermind if its benefiting his pets.
/traps has various short range attacks that work best within melee range, Seeker drones being about the only actual range debuff available.
/pain has World of Pain, a PBAoE buff, which while you can cast before combat, is best used during combat. Anguishing Cry is a PBAoE debuff, which you'll definitely need to be in melee range to pull off, and may also pull aggro on top of you.
/poison is basically all range debuffs, but can still have aggro thrown back onto the mastermind due to the strength of the debuffs.
/storm has Steamy mist, which would only benefit the pets if they are within range of it.
/thermal is a PBAoE heal, which doesn't do the pets much good if they are out of range of it, and melt armor can definitely pull aggro onto the mastermind due to the AoE nature of it.
/trick arrow is again, pretty much all range, and it has enough tools at its disposal to avoid closing in on the enemy entirely.
So, out of all the secondary, there's about 3 where you can avoid closing into melee more often then not, but for the other sets, having to be in combat allows you to better use all your powers available to you.
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I didn't want to bring this up but we have been using everything at the damage cap because it favored your side of the argument. If the best case you can make using the most favorable conditions possible is not very good then the situation becomes more pronounced as the conditions get worse. In this case the blaster is gaining an additional 25% relative to the buff/debuff from being at the cap. |
The Damage cap example allows for you to ignore defiance as a mini-fury, and ignore any other damage buffs the blaster may be able to put on themselves. Scourge requires the enemy to have 50% or less hitpoints left for it to kick in, where defiance allows a blaster to build up their self damage from just attacking. Add in the increased single target damage, and blasters can pull ahead of their corruptor counterparts, without factoring in the actual damaging powers blasters secondary allows them to have.
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I consider twilight grasp to be a ranged debuff and maybe a personal heal.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Again, the problem with that statement doesn't take into consideration that fact that some debuffs on a mastermind have shorter ranges, and some even require melee in order to execute.
/dark has a PBAoE heal, which is pretty darn useless to use unless its affecting your pets, which may be in melee range. Darkest Night can pull aggro onto the mastermind, so even at range, they will be taking hits. Shadow fall is PBAoE, and again is only useful to the mastermind if its benefiting his pets. |
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| /traps has various short range attacks that work best within melee range, Seeker drones being about the only actual range debuff available. |
It also lays down its traps as pets. Acid mortar aggros to itself, FF generator can be attacked etc.
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| /pain has World of Pain, a PBAoE buff, which while you can cast before combat, is best used during combat. Anguishing Cry is a PBAoE debuff, which you'll definitely need to be in melee range to pull off, and may also pull aggro on top of you. |
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/storm has Steamy mist, which would only benefit the pets if they are within range of it. |
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/thermal is a PBAoE heal, which doesn't do the pets much good if they are out of range of it, and melt armor can definitely pull aggro onto the mastermind due to the AoE nature of it. /trick arrow is again, pretty much all range, and it has enough tools at its disposal to avoid closing in on the enemy entirely. So, out of all the secondary, there's about 3 where you can avoid closing into melee more often then not, but for the other sets, having to be in combat allows you to better use all your powers available to you. |
I won't comment on pain, or demons can't stand the look of either set and MMs are just so damn powerful to begin with there is no real need to shoot for peak performance.
Anyway given that all the primary sets have greater or lesser degrees of range I think you mean near the pets rather then melee..
Concerning Pain as I said I don't play it but it seems like a buff set that most of the time you can buff your pets and let them wreak havoc.
Traps has acid mortar a ranged stationary pet that damages and debuffs, poison trap which can be placed and left for pulls, Trip mine, and MUAHAHA detonator.
Storm is mostly ranged debuffs, controls, and knockback with a ranged heal.
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Even when not at the damage cap, blasters have higher modifiers to their 'aim' and they get 'build up' as well in most cases, which you really can't factor out. They allows them to buff their own damage much higher then a corruptor or defender would be able to do without using targeted buffs. (FS comes to mind, on a ice/ or fire/ corruptor, but that requires you to hit your target, and be in melee range of those affected be it, where a blaster can hit BU and aim, and wouldn't need any other enemies to attain that damage) The Damage cap example allows for you to ignore defiance as a mini-fury, and ignore any other damage buffs the blaster may be able to put on themselves. Scourge requires the enemy to have 50% or less hitpoints left for it to kick in, where defiance allows a blaster to build up their self damage from just attacking. Add in the increased single target damage, and blasters can pull ahead of their corruptor counterparts, without factoring in the actual damaging powers blasters secondary allows them to have. |
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I'm not just meaning you'll be immune to mez's, because yes, force field, and traps have built in mez protection, but you'll still have to be within melee range to use some of traps tricks, Seekers for example, explode, so once they pull aggro, it falls back onto the Mastermind. Your going to take damage as a mastermind, unless you stay completely out of combat, in which case your not using a whole lot of your secondary.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I am sorry here masterminds aren't the most survivable AT in the game because of body guard mode. Its a nice trick but it really pales in comparison to not being where combat is. At villain hamidon raids you can see masterminds hiding behind a rock (playing cards or dice ?) while they send an endless stream of henchmen to antagonize the Hamidon. Not even stone tanks backed up by teams of defenders are that safe.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Even when not at the damage cap, blasters have higher modifiers to their 'aim' and they get 'build up' as well in most cases, which you really can't factor out. They allows them to buff their own damage much higher then a corruptor or defender would be able to do without using targeted buffs. (FS comes to mind, on a ice/ or fire/ corruptor, but that requires you to hit your target, and be in melee range of those affected be it, where a blaster can hit BU and aim, and wouldn't need any other enemies to attain that damage)
The Damage cap example allows for you to ignore defiance as a mini-fury, and ignore any other damage buffs the blaster may be able to put on themselves. Scourge requires the enemy to have 50% or less hitpoints left for it to kick in, where defiance allows a blaster to build up their self damage from just attacking. Add in the increased single target damage, and blasters can pull ahead of their corruptor counterparts, without factoring in the actual damaging powers blasters secondary allows them to have. |
As promised before I hit the links, anyone up for a "Why sandtraps" thread ? No, city of sand wedges ?
If they aren't operating at the cap you have just the damage modifier. If you go by the damage scale alone you need to use .55 in thinkso's table.
Whats more in that we are only considering debuff in there at .3 Any set with -res can do .3 if there is room for amplifying output it goes up easiliy hitting .4 or .5, (Radiation -30% res, +25% damage, +25% recharge by example)
The other thing is when we started talking about them being at the damage cap, we implicitly included a kin which reduces the maximum team size for those calculations to 7. It also takes out any benefit of range if the people doing the killing are going to soak up the fulcrum shift.
I said way back someplace in this thread, I knew exactly when it was a good call to add a blaster, and its not on the tail end of large teams of buff/debuffers. The point where its most viable is when you have a small number of buffing defenders and best if they are defense buffers.
Its even kind of marginal there. Even with the nerfs to /shield and the buffs to /fire (Is burn still torching blasters that use it ? )
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I agree, balance is a stupid thing to pursue. i4 was a heck of a lot of fun. Things should have stayed like that...|
Originally Posted by Soho
Really?
The impact of my statement is the fact that the game is beyond easy. Getting into a debate as to the damage and/or survivability is futile at best. Acting as if a few percent of damage here or there will do when compared to other ATs really does not matter. With the ease of play in this game just about any combo of powerset is viable. Just about any AT is also viable. It is not like there are any encounters in this game that require some sort of epic set up. So yes I say cause they are fun play what you like and enjoy it. |
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| But anyway let me let you get back to being a fan boy and not bother with this thread again. |
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| P.S. Play what is fun for you. If you go by numbers then we would all be playing the same few power sets and ATs. |
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I would beg to differ strongly with the highlighted statement. Having played every "un-armored" AT many, many times, the new defiance combined with no-toggle-drop helps Blasters tremendously. I have no doubt that many Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors and even Masterminds would argue that they are in last place in that mezz-susceptable line. I KNOW my Empath will argue this one with you.
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| You can cherry pick defender combinations which will solo better and blaster combinations which have less "anti-mezz" if you like, but you cannot convince me that Blasters have it worse than any other AT regarding mezz effects. And this is simply because when you strip away all (offensive)powers and look at base HPs, Inherents and Base defensive powers, Blasters beat Everything except : Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers and to some extent Doms and Controllers. That still leaves non-traps/FF/sonic Defs/Corrs/MMs. |
If/when the preemptive measures fail most squishies still have stronger tools than the blaster. Many debuffs have a lingering effect that continue to significantly reduce the danger while mezzed.
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| I will not argue with you regarding the offensive contribution of Blasters versus all other ATs, because I really only care about balance from a few limited gauges (Fun, Solo-ability, and Team Support), but specifically in regards to MEZZ susceptability I cannot support your conclusion. |
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Originally Posted by Dragonkat
You guys can lay out the math all you want, in fact you're a bit off, just a quick check of mids puts most base def attacks probably higher then 40% of blaster, probably closer to 50% in some instances such as when i looked at archery and rain of arrow. |
Anyway, no one is saying that blasters can't be fun. Please stop basing everything regarding a balance discussion around that. You can't proclaim victory over something that the other said never once claimed. Well you can, as you and a few others have, but it is pretty silly.
Personally I greatly enjoyed having 3 sets of fire imps. That was great fun. I also enjoyed my invincible (literally) invul scrapper back then. More recently I liked my old PSW /psi dom and my uber nuke shield charge. Really fun stuff. However, if it is inappropriate to use "fun" as the foundation of an argument to support something that is overpowered, what honestly leads you to think that the same argument will hold up when something is underpowered?
If you can answer that I think I'll understand what you guys are saying better. If you can answer that then I'll likely agree with what you have been saying this whole time.
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Hmm, we have a big difference of opinion on how strong their Inherent makes blasters. Take for instance a Defender like Biospark who gets stunned by a Malta Gunslinger. He MUST use a Break free to continue and possibly even survive. My blaster can and HAS ridden out a mezz by face-blasting the offending Lt. untill it stops twitching.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I would beg to differ strongly with the highlighted statement. Having played every "un-armored" AT many, many times, the new defiance combined with no-toggle-drop helps Blasters tremendously. I have no doubt that many Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors and even Masterminds would argue that they are in last place in that mezz-susceptable line. I KNOW my Empath will argue this one with you.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
You can cherry pick defender combinations which will solo better and blaster combinations which have less "anti-mezz" if you like, but you cannot convince me that Blasters have it worse than any other AT regarding mezz effects. And this is simply because when you strip away all (offensive)powers and look at base HPs, Inherents and Base defensive powers, Blasters beat Everything except : Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers and to some extent Doms and Controllers. That still leaves non-traps/FF/sonic Defs/Corrs/MMs.
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And therein lies the main reason why Blasters (To Me) have it better than alot of squishies (in general). Their damage means that Sapper is a 1-shot kill instead of 3 shots. They can rely on "Brute Force" as counter to problem mobs, where a Defender cannot. And even in the instance where they are hit with a status effect they can still "Defiantly" blast the Villain to smithers even while held/slept/stunned etc..
To me thats just plain cool
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Ok, so lets break down the -res, and +dam available to defenders, corruptors, and blasters, and see (without adding in outside buffs) how they all stack together.
For the sake of powers like FS, I'm going to limit it to 1 application, at 1 target, but note how much +dam it gives for each additional target and assume the recharge (and available mobs) to keep it perma. I'm going to assume, in most cases FS will be used instead of siphon power, as it’s more bang for the buck per say.
Blasters, due to defiance, can sustain about a 30% damage increase by merely using their primary and secondary attacks. This may go higher, but 30% is a good average with SO slotting, and constantly attacking. Damage scale of 1.125 range, 1.000 melee
Defenders, while solo get 30% damage increase post level 20, which drops off the more teammates you have, at 10% per teammate (so a defender on a duo only has 20%, on a trio 10%, and anything higher 0%) Damage scale of .65
Corruptors, get a chance to Scourge (double damage) on any enemy below 50% hit points, scaling up to 100% chance when the enemy has 10% or less hit points. Which scales to about 2.5% chance for double damage every % the enemy is below 50%. So, the math to figure out how much Scourge actually adds is dependant on the mobs hit points, but in most bases its only factorable in regards to boss or higher rank mobs. Anything lower, and scourge is generally just wasted extra damage. On boss or higher ranking mobs, Scourge supplies corruptors with enough extra damage to sustain a .95 damage scale, but only for the last 50% of said mobs base hit points. So while mob hit points > 50% corruptors’ damage scale is .75. When mob hit points
Now, let’s take a look at the different blast sets. 'B' is available to blasters, 'C' is available to corruptors, and 'D' is available to defenders.
Archery -> B, C, D Aim
Assault rifle -> B, C, D
Dark Blast -> C, D
Dual Pistols -> B, C, D
Elect Blast -> B, C, D Aim
Energy Blast -> B, C, D Aim
Fire Blast -> B, C Aim
Ice Blast -> B, C, D Aim
Psi Blast -> B, D Aim (blaster only)
Rad Blast -> B, C, D Aim
Sonic Blast -> B, C, D Aim
Aim, with 3 recharge slotted equates to about a 13.75% damage increase on blasters, a 11% damage increase on Defenders, and a 9.35% damage increase on Corruptors.
5 out of 6 of the secondary’s on blaster has Build up, which with 3 recharge slotted equates to about a 22% damage increase.
Sonic blast, while available to all three ATs, gives different values for it's -res. Assuming each AT can keep at lest 3 blasts up at all times, a blaster would have an additional 39% +dam (-res and +dam are basically interchangeable), a defender would have +60%, and a corruptor would have +45%
Now onto the buff/debuff sets. Again, D is for defender, C is for corruptor.
Rad -> D, C -> D gets +25% damage, -30% res, C gets +20% dam, -22.5% res
Dark -> D, C -> D gets -60% res (2 tar patches max); C gets -60% res (2 tar patches max)
Sonic -> D, C -> D gets -30% res while solo, -60% when grouped (-30% from sonic siphon, -30% from Disruption field), C gets -22.5% res while solo, -45% res when grouped (-22.5% from Sonic siphon, -22.5% from disruption field)
Storm -> D, C -> D gets -35% res, C gets -30% res
Traps -> D, C -> D gets -53.2% res (2 acid mortars max), C gets -40% res (2 acid mortars max)
Cold -> D, C -> D gets -30% res, C gets -30% res
Kinetic -> D, C -> D gets +75% damage first target, +25% each additional , C gets +60% damage first target, +20% each additional
Force Field -> D -> No -res, or +dam present within the power set
Empathy -> D -> +31.3% damage to ally (unable to cast on self)
Pain -> C -> +25% damage (self only after using Share pain), +30% damage on self for 60secs, -30% damage for 30secs afterwards after using Conduit of Pain, 16% damage in PBAoE, -22.5% res in PBAoE, +50% damage to ally (unable to cast on self)
Thermal -> C -> +40% damage to ally (unable to cast on self), -22.5% res
I'm pretty sure that breaks down all the -res, and +dam available to Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors. Using the above numbers, it should be much easier to figure out an accurate way to combine different primary and secondary powers to best illustrate how a blaster may be able to better boost a team.
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I appreciate the effort you put in the above, but it only highlights the problems with the at. At this point we are talking about extremely aertificial teams for the blaster to be a competitive choice. We still haven't considered the benefits that other ATs bring to the picture Aggro control (brutes/tanks), (comparable/damage and aggro management brutes/scrappers), (comparable damage + control doms/controllers (containment)) etc
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Ok, so lets break down the -res, and +dam available to defenders, corruptors, and blasters, and see (without adding in outside buffs) how they all stack together.
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I wouldn't go that far. Using the information i found out, it basically shows that blasters get about 30% damage for just being their class, another 13.75% for having aim, and 22% for having build up, plus 39% for being sonic blast.| I appreciate the effort you put in the above, but it only highlights the problems with the at. At this point we are talking about extremely aertificial teams for the blaster to be a competitive choice. We still haven't considered the benefits that other ATs bring to the picture Aggro control (brutes/tanks), (comparable/damage and aggro management brutes/scrappers), (comparable damage + control doms/controllers (containment)) etc |
Which, accounting for their 1.125 damage scale, and access to more AoEs means that it'll be hard pressed to out damage a AoE geared blasters. Even the least AoE centric blast powerset (psionic Blast) still has 2 AoEs, one being targeted, with a above normal radius (20ft) and psionic wail, which has a mag 3 stun attached to it. Yes, the old school end crashes are annoying, but as previously explained there are plenty of ways to mitigate them.
Where blasters start to really shine is in AoE heavy environments (large teams) where survivability is a non issue, due to controlled aggro (tanker/brute), increased survival (defenders/corruptors), or hard controls (dominators/controllers).
In a solo environment, on the default setting, blasters have no issue doing what they do best, damage. Once you start increasing that difficulty setting, and adding more mobs to the fray, things like specific powersets, and Invention Origins needs to be factored in, but as already been said in this thread, the game isn't balanced around those, and it'll get really complicated to factor in everything against each high end IO build.
Do blasters really need help? No. Are they as easy to play as a scrapper/brute? No. Can they deal out more damage, in more situations? Yes. Do they need outside help to do it? Probably, but thats what teams are for. Once you take survivability out of the equation, blasters can open up their arsenal, and goto town. They have access to the most AoEs when compared to other damage dealing classes, and have higher target caps on said AoEs when compared to other damage dealing classes.
While some specific AoEs are the same across various ATs (ice blast comes to mind) the blaster will have a secondary that will add pure amounts of damage, be it single target hits, or more AoEs. The secondaries that don't add AoE damage, add various forms of mitigation, which can not be unaccounted for.
/Ice offers Ice patch, Chilling embrace and shiver which allow a blaster to not just save themselves, but to benefit a team as well.
/Elec offers a damage aura, and ability to drain endurance, plus hard hitting melee attacks, which can definitely help out in just about any situation.
/Dev offers stealth which allows the blasters to get the first hit off in most cases, soft controls in the form of caltrops and smoke grenade (fear component and -perception) Extra AoE and single target damage from the mines, and gun drone, which can be used in the thick of combat, when used in conjunction with a team, or the combination of stealth and -perception
/Fire we've already touched on, but it just offers extreme amounts of extra damage, via 2 damage auras (one with soft control, in the form of the afraid mechanic), the ability to refill your end bar every 90ish seconds, and just burn things up in a rather quick setting
/energy offers the least amount of AoE but adds some of the hardest hitting melee attacks, as well as abilities to enhance what the blaster needs at the time, be it range, endurance management, or needing to lock down mobs effectively. It can also stack a large amounts of stuns, which prevents the enemy from hitting either a teammate, or the blaster itself.
/mental offers the only ranged AoE in all the secondarys, as well as a perma-able -regen, and -recovery, which boosts the regen and recovery of the blaster, allowing them to shrug off some of the largest hits, due to sheer regeneration. It also gets a damage aura of sorts, which offers hard control (confuse) and can allow the blaster to sit in melee, and attack freely, without worry of being hit back.
Seriously?
EIGHTEEN pages of people arguing about whether or not blasters are useless?
The only useless thing I see around here is the thread itself.
People enjoy playing blasters because it is fun to blow **** up.
That's really all that needs to be said.
If someone turns down a blaster when there is an open spot on the team just because "blasters don't contribute enough", I'll quit the team myself, simply because I refuse to team with people who have their head that far up their ***.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead.
The vast majority of the playerbase could give a crap less that their overall damage output could be 1.6% higher if they invite a corruptor instead of a blaster. Fun is subjective, and surprisingly, most people don't find analyzing things down to the last decimal point for a pick up group all that fun.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I read it as 18 pages of people talking about just what are the strengths and weaknesses of the AT, and a few people getting very upset about them doing so.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Seriously?
EIGHTEEN pages of people arguing about whether or not blasters are useless? |
I skipped most of those pages, but I kind of get what C&E is saying. The two most over rated parts of this game are group composition and builds.
Not saying that a poor build (or an unbalanced group) isn't possible, but the extremes that it gets taken to is ridiculous. It really doesn't take much to make an adequate build, and after that, figuring out the optimum numbers might be a neat intellectual exercise, but it's unnecessary. Put it another way, I would much rather team with someone with a sub-optimum build who pays attention than a clueless guy with a tricked out toon.
BTW, I love everything about playing blasters. I like the piles of defeated foes when it is easy, I love the challenge of staying alive when its hard, I love the one-shot snipes, I love figuring out how to keep shooting immediately after you nuke, I love....you get the idea
Just a side note I only read the last page, so if you're still trolling AF I might go waste some time finding it after work, thinkso asks a better question anyway I'm sure.
But also to quote the joker, why so serious bats?
That's one thing I don't get guys, you seem really driven to be "Right" (Both sides) and seem to be taking this whole thing way too seriously, you do realize most of my posts don't because I just find most of this thread silly? Well that and I never take myself very seriously either, hehe not in it to be right, mostly just in it for the lulz, and to try and get people to think outside their lil min maxed boxes once in awhile.
Anyway.
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However, if it is inappropriate to use "fun" as the foundation of an argument to support something that is overpowered, what honestly leads you to think that the same argument will hold up when something is underpowered? If you can answer that I think I'll understand what you guys are saying better. If you can answer that then I'll likely agree with what you have been saying this whole time. |
Easy answer.
Fun doesn't work for overpowered builds because of power creep and fotm syndrome, if we try to balance around obvious overpowered ones or watch everyone take the old overpowered smoke grenade, you throw the game out of whack. Ask regen scrappers. Or the time when fire/kin was farmer of the month along with flavor of the month =p
On the other hand....
Can blasters, any build solo and or team perform at base line 0/x1 content? With zero inability to finish missions? (Unlike pre overpower trollers in certain builds that couldn't without taking hours) Yes, yes we can.
And that's the end of it, you can harp about numbers and force multipliers and chart to the heavens all you want, but blasters can play through content just fine, are viable on teams as much as any other AT (more so in my personal opinion) and a whole lot better then some of the people in this thread would believe they can, it's kinda funny watching the argument bounce around between first scrappers, then MM, then defender, but eh whatever. What's next I wonder, maybe your grandma makes better cookies then my blaster? I mean come on...
See this is the part where we hit pointless, you see numbers and think blasters are broken, or underpowered or whatever. Your take on them, you're allowed. It's a scientific approach, fair enough.
And again you're in the wrong place with the wrong argument. If you honestly think blasters are this terrible, why are you not putting your reasoning out there to the devs? If blasters are this bad have you offered one suggestion in any of those number laden posts to actually improve them in a balanced manner? I have yet to see it.
And again I still don't give a care about that, I treat blasting as well, call it art, philosophy, style, zen, whatever hehe. The numbers behind the build are meaningless compared to what the build does in game, and does it with style. And I haven't found a blaster build yet I'd call underpowered to the point of being unplayable.
If you want to be call being able to hit boost range + build up, followed by piercing shot hitting a trio of even cons, followed by pistol (1 dead) dual wield (2 dead) and exec shot (3 dead) all before they may get even one attack off underpowered, by all means do so, i don't think I have enough damage yet, after all hail of bullets, bone smasher and energy punch are still charged [/sarcasm]
Now if you want to talk specific powers (time bomb) Sure I'll agree there's a couple that could use some love.
But the AT as a whole? if you think blasters are as bad off as your numbers would make them to believe, well I want some of what you're smoking. You're entire premise is based on the false assumption of blasters are underpowered, which i and others just happen to disagree with, sorry if it bursts your bubble that we can't be bothered to come up with a chart of our own, some of us are busy playing the actual game.
So why a blaster?
Cause it's fun!
The fact that my blaster can attack while mezzed from 1-50 puts them above every other squishy toon without mez prot, in my mind. Period.
Cause being mezzed while running out of breakfrees and standing there like a statue while your health is whittled to nothing isn't fun.
Yes I know fun, how shocking.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!