ok, so lets do it this way then, if your still not getting it.
Fire/fire Blaster, Counting inferno this time =
Assuming the damage auras only tick once, the total possible AoE damage is 698.57 damage, but lets break it down further.
Fireball does 78.83 damage, every 16 seconds, with 1.188 cast time, so it does 4.586 Damage per cycle (cycle is recharge + cast time)
Rain of Fire does 125.12 damage, every 60 seconds, with 2.244 cast time, so it does 2.004 damage per cycle
Fire Breath does 109.8 damage, every 16 seconds, with 2.904 cast time, so it does 5.808 damage per cycle
Inferno does 472.21 damage, every 360 seconds, with 3.168 cast time, so it does
1.300 damage per cycle
Combustion does 83.42 damage, every 15 seconds, with 3.168 cast time, so it does 4.592 damage per cycle
Fire Sword Circle does 99.54 damage, every 20 seconds, with 2.904 cast time, so it does
4.346 damage per cycle
Blazing aura does 11.12 damage, every 2 seconds so it does 5.56 damage per cycle
Consume does 44.49 damage, every 180 seconds, with 3.168 cast time, so it does .243 damage per cycle
Burn does 132.35 damage, every 25 seconds, with 2.244 cast time, so it does 4.858 damage per cycle
Hot feet does 13.9 damage, every 2 seconds, so it does 6.95 damage per cycle
For a total (counting inferno) of 34.687 damage per cycle
AR/fire blasters have 11 AoEs, and you can count Full Auto, as it doesn't crash.
Assuming the damage auras only tick once and they stay in ignite for the full duration, the total possible AoE damage is 1,075.78 damage but lets break that down like we did fire/fire:
Buckshot does 56.93 damage, every 8 seconds, with 1.056 cast time, so it does 6.184 damage per cycle
M30 Grenade does 56.31 damage, every 16 seconds, with 1.848 cast time, so it does 3.155 damage per cycle
Flamethrower does 121.12 damage, every 20 seconds, with 2.508 cast time, so it does 5.381 damage per cycle
Ignite does 278.05 damage, every 20 seconds, with 4.224 cast time, so it does 11.478 damage per cycle
Full Auto does 178.55 damage, every 60 seconds, with 4.224 cast time so it does 2.780 damage per cycle
Combustion does 83.42 damage, every 15 seconds, with 3.168 cast time, so it does 4.592 damage per cycle
Fire Sword Circle does 99.54 damage, every 20 seconds, with 2.904 cast time, so it does
4.346 damage per cycle
Blazing aura does 11.12 damage, every 2 seconds so it does 5.56 damage per cycle
Consume does 44.49 damage, every 180 seconds, with 3.168 cast time, so it does .243 damage per cycle
Burn does 132.35 damage, every 25 seconds, with 2.244 cast time, so it does 4.858 damage per cycle
Hot feet does 13.9 damage, every 2 seconds, so it does 6.95 damage per cycle
For a total of 55.617 damage per cycle, again assuming ignite runs its full duration
Electric melee/shields Scrapper has 4 AoEs available to it.
Total possible AoE damage is 641.83 damage
Jacob's Ladder does 103.23 damage, every 8 seconds, with 1.848 cast time, so it does 10.482 damage per cycle
Thunderstrike does 134.88 damage, every 18 seconds, with 3.432 cast time, so it does 6.293 damage per cycle
Lightning Rod does 290.28 damage, every 90 seconds, with 2.772 cast time, so it does 3.129 damage per cycle
Shield Charge does 113.44 damage, every 90 seconds, with 1.716 cast time, so it does 1.234 damage per cycle
For a total of 21.138 damage per cycle
Fire melee/shields Scrapper has 3 AoEs available to it.
Total possible AoE damage is 353.74 damage
Breath of Fire does 113.61 damage, every 10 seconds, with 2.904 cast time, so it does 8.804 damage per cycle
Fire Sword Circle does 126.69 damage, every 20 seconds, with 2.904 cast time, so it does 5.531 damage per cycle
Shield Charge does 113.44 damage, every 90 seconds, with 1.716 cast time, so it does 1.234 damage per cycle
For a total of 15.569 damage per cycle
Super Strength/Fire armor brute has 5 AoEs available to it.
Assuming the damage aura only ticks once, and Rise of the Phoenix ticks all three times post rez, the total AoE damage is 522.17
Foot Stomp does 59.22 damage, every 20 seconds, with 2.244 cast time, so it does 2.662 damage per cycle
Blazing Aura does 9.176 damage every 2 seconds, so it does 4.588 damage per cycle
Consume does 16.68 damage every 180 seconds, with 2.244 cast time, so it does .092 damage per cycle
Rise of the Phoenix does 333.66 damage every 300 seconds, with 1.716 cast time, so it does 1.106 damage per cycle, assuming you die every 300 seconds
For a total of 8.448 damage per cycle
All these numbers factor in Arcanatime, and go off base damage and base recharge. Obviously slotting may change it, but its still putting blasters ahead on damage per cycle, which is a far more accurate way of measuring the damage potential wouldn't you think?
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I was not talking about 0 /x1. I was also not talking about solo farming (which I know is a part of the game, but I don't think of that as regular content either). However, farming runs are a good way to measure kills/time, if you can make all other things equal. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I'd have to ask Strato Nexus how he used the term, the inclusion of AVs in the same sentence made me think he meant anything up to bosses.
Edit: The inclusion of Fire/Psi doms in the comparison also would seem to suggest he wasn't talking about /1 And to be clear, I can't think of anything that can't handle 0/1 at a rate that killing things isn't the problem, but travel,zoning, and running the map are. Maybe some sort of emp that didn't take attacks. |
I try to believe that moderate teaming and regular mission running is the most "normal" way of playing, but I of course have no idea if that is true or not.
Comparing numbers in Cat's thread though is a problem, since the "best" farmers will use stuff with good survivability too. Practiced at it, they know what missions to run with the right kind of enemies. It might be possible on the no boss setting vs. the right spawns to run a Fire/Fire a blaster at +2 / x8 using inspiration rush. I have done that for parts of maps with bosses at those settings, but eventually mezzers get me and bosses are mean. I have never tried cherry-picking non-mezzers and turning bosses off. Even if you can "win" with a blaster, it is so much easier with a scrapper or brute or controller or dominator thanks to their survivability edge in solo circumstances.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
@Arbegla
When you say cycle time, its not how fast an attack recharges its how often the sequence of attacks repeats.
Second I know this may seem obvious but for AoE damage to be meaningful there has to be more than 1 thing left to hit.
Lets take a look at my simplified example
we have 2 attacks that do 150 and recharge in 5seconds
The base is
Attack 1
1s
Attack 2
2s -300 pts of damage delivered
wait 4 seconds
6s
Attack 1 again
That total does 300 points every 5 seconds or 60dps/target hit. Using even con or better enemies it takes 7 seconds before the first anything is killed.
Now lets look at your fire/fire example ill be rounding up
Fire Ball_ 80
1s
Rain of fire 125 (allowing it does all its damage at once)
3.24 s
Fire Breath 110
6.14 s
At this point unless adding in another attack really ups the damage you are already doing far worse than the hypothetical.
Adding most of the other attacks is actually going to bring down your damage output/unit time.
Now for the second part of the picture
Once you have done 400 and 800 points you hit changeovers because at 400 the minions are dead and 800 the lieutenants are dead.
So when I say you can't compare the AoE output of the elec/shield its because its killed everything small in 3-4 seconds (tiny hyperbole but not far off) then its on to its st attacks for whatever is left.
Edit /fires real gems are hotfeet and blazing aura
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And this is the entire argument right here. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Short reply, blasters may be fun, but they are increasingly underpowered relative to other ATs.
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You keep saying this over and over, and people keep replying that, no, they are not.
When you roll a blaster, you should be aware that you are getting Damage, with a secondary of MORE damage (and maybe a little control or mitigation). A new player may not be aware of exactly what they are getting into, but a veteran player should know very well what they are playing when they roll a blaster.
Any blaster can solo on 0/x1 with ease. Most blasters I've encountered can solo on 0/x4 or so when played by a competent player. I've seen a few that can solo on 0/x8, with a beastly build and a competent player.
Every other AT in the game can say the exact same thing. With just about the same variables. They can all solo at the default setting, a good number of them can solo on about halfway up, and a few standouts can solo high difficulty.
A blaster has soloed an ITF. Someone (I think it was Silverado) soloed a Giant Monster with a blaster. Those are feats that are difficult for ANY AT that attempts them, and they have been done by blasters.
And on teams? Well, that's where blasters really shine. I've been on teams where my scrapper had to split from the rest of the team just to get a chance to kill something, because the blasters were killing it all before I could even get in range to attack.
Underpowered, indeed.
If you want blasters to get more defense and/or survivability....be prepared to get the crap nerfed out of their damage, because that is where the balance point lies.
Blasters are squishy because nothing kills faster, or deals more damage than them over an extended period. Especially when teamed.
Answer this: If blasters are SO underpowered relative to other ATs, and scrappers are clearly so much better, why is it most optimized MoSTF teams will take a blaster before (grudgingly) allowing a scrapper to tag along?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
However you stand on the current argument Claws, this is a huge red herring - blasters are preferred over melee on MoSTF runs because of Ghost widow - you need a lot of damage to take here down and can only afford to have your tank in melee range, so you need ranged damage/debuffs and can only afford to have 1-2 extra melee folks. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Answer this: If blasters are SO underpowered relative to other ATs, and scrappers are clearly so much better, why is it most optimized MoSTF teams will take a blaster before (grudgingly) allowing a scrapper to tag along?
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Unfortunately, I suspect there i no easy way to resolve the core disagreement in this thread. Everyone pretty much seems to agree that blasters give up some amount of survivability in exchange for being the AE damage specialists (and getting some really good single target damage as well). What folks can't agree on is whether blasters get ENOUGH damage in exchange. Without access to serious amounts of data that probably only the dev's ever see any arguments folks bring up are going to be mostly anecdotal.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Quote:
It doesn't matter how you chain the attacks together, as the blaster as more attacks available more often then the scrapper does. Faster recharging attacks do better DPS (and Damage per cycle) then slower recharging attacks. Even if said slower recharging attacks hit much harder (look at inferno's damage per cycle for example, which ironically enough is higher then shield charge)|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
@Arbegla
When you say cycle time, its not how fast an attack recharges its how often the sequence of attacks repeats. Second I know this may seem obvious but for AoE damage to be meaningful there has to be more than 1 thing left to hit. Lets take a look at my simplified example we have 2 attacks that do 150 and recharge in 5seconds The base is Attack 1 1s Attack 2 2s -300 pts of damage delivered wait 4 seconds 6s Attack 1 again That total does 300 points every 5 seconds or 60dps/target hit. Using even con or better enemies it takes 7 seconds before the first anything is killed. Now lets look at your fire/fire example ill be rounding up Fire Ball_ 80 1s Rain of fire 125 (allowing it does all its damage at once) 3.24 s Fire Breath 110 6.14 s At this point unless adding in another attack really ups the damage you are already doing far worse than the hypothetical. Adding most of the other attacks is actually going to bring down your damage output/unit time. Now for the second part of the picture Once you have done 400 and 800 points you hit changeovers because at 400 the minions are dead and 800 the lieutenants are dead. So when I say you can't compare the AoE output of the elec/shield its because its killed everything small in 3-4 seconds (tiny hyperbole but not far off) then its on to its st attacks for whatever is left. Edit /fires real gems are hotfeet and blazing aura |
Luckily for the Dev's, there is no such powerset that can cycle 150+ damage attacks in 5 seconds, or less. You bet best is a elec/shield scrapper, and even them, at best case, fully IO'ed have a 30 (not 3-4) second gap on their massive AoE attacks, as the other attacks do much less damage, in a much less area.
Due to higher damage per cycle attacks it doesn't matter how to string them together, as the end result ends up being higher damage. In the time it takes you to recharge LR and SC (90 seconds total of 403.72 damage) you could have gotten off 5.6 fireballs (441.44 damage), or 6 combustions (500.52 damage), which clearly shows the higher damage towards the blaster, due to higher damage per cycle attacks. And that's completely disregarding the damage auras, which you are right, do add an amazing amount of damage for very little work.
Quote:
Do they kill the fastest?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Blasters are squishy because nothing kills faster, or deals more damage than them over an extended period. Especially when teamed.
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I mean they aren't the best farmers are they? and farming consists of wiping out easy spawns which if their damage is as high as it sounds shouldn't they be the best at this?
They certainly aren't the best st damage dealers judging by what evidence we have on the boards.
They may do the most damage out of all the AT's when teamed. Numerically it looks like they probably do given the high target cap on their AoE's and the fact that that is their only role while most other AT's have multiple useful jobs on a team, but that is also a double edged sword. They are the first AT that will need babysitting and thus the first AT that will hold back if they don't feel entirely safe because they have such large area aoe's.
Likely in a survivability doesn't matter scenario they are the king of damage (at least aoe), but from reading this thread people were poo-poo'ing the idea of frequently being on teams with several defs and/or corrs. If that isn't common then it also isn't common to encounter scenarios where survivability doesn't matter because most of that scenario coming true is dependent upon the defs/corrs making it that way.
Quote:
| Answer this: If blasters are SO underpowered relative to other ATs, and scrappers are clearly so much better, why is it most optimized MoSTF teams will take a blaster before (grudgingly) allowing a scrapper to tag along? |
I don't know, i know quite a few pretty good blaster farming builds.
Fire/mental
Archery/Mental
Archery/EM
Fire/fire
finding a good farm toon is all about what you plan on killing. As any of the above builds can kill just as fast, or even faster then some of the big name builds, depending on what you fight.
Quote:
It's not the quantity of your aoe's it's the quality. Case in point SS brutes can do terrific aoe damage and easily outpace Mace brutes, yet SS brutes only have 1-3 aoes (depending on epic choice) while Mace brutes have 3-5 aoes (depending on epic choice).|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
It doesn't matter how you chain the attacks together, as the blaster as more attacks available more often then the scrapper does. Faster recharging attacks do better DPS (and Damage per cycle) then slower recharging attacks. Even if said slower recharging attacks hit much harder (look at inferno's damage per cycle for example, which ironically enough is higher then shield charge)
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Your understanding of attacks is questionable. Attacks are governed by two main things:
1. cast time
2. recharge time
Faster recharging attacks can do better dps (but isn't always the case) out of the box, but once you start throwing additional recharge at the powers the 'faster' attack quickly hit a wall.
Having extra quantity of aoe's is important up until you have enough recharge to no longer need them. That point is rarely where you can seamlessly string aoe's either, but rather the point where you have enough aoe's to kill whatever you are facing and then have them available again for the next encounter.
Thus having 100 aoe attacks that all do low damage each sounds impressive, but really isn't in actual practice. In the actual game we more often see the 'best' aoe damage dealers leaning very heavily on a very limited number of superior aoe's.
Case in point a ss/fire brute can move through spawns considerably faster than any blaster (from some of the farming threads 500k inf/min is not unheard of) yet you can count their aoe's on one hand. If what you say was true and sheer number of aoe's was what mattered then a fire/fire blaster with double the aoe's should be waaaaay faster no? But they aren't for some reason. I was thinking the reason was survivability, but it isn't hard to make a blaster survivable enough to handle 'farm' mobs.
Anyway, I'm confused by the information presented in this thread. People keep saying blasters are the best damage, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the actual game, or with some of the simplified models shown in various discussions, or in any of the quantifiable tests that are used as measuring sticks on the boards.
For clarity, I'm not saying my arch/em blaster doesn't do a lot of damage. Neither is that the case for my fire/ice. I personally think they do great damage. However, if I define their damage as great then I also feel my ss/ela brute and my fire/sheild scrap also do great damage and can both survive way better. That said, I don't feel like my elec, psy, or energy blasters that I played did 'great' damage. They all felt well below many of the scraps/brutes/corrs/doms I've played.
Quote:
I've been saying those exact things with my damage per cycle (which takes total damage and divides it by recharge + cast time) statements.|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
Your understanding of attacks is questionable. Attacks are governed by two main things:
1. cast time 2. recharge time |
Mutliple blaster AoEs out damage the AoEs found in scrapper and brute combinations.
In the same time you can dish out LR + SC, a fire blaster can do about 5.6 fireballs (at base recharge) which will outdamage your big boom of LR + SC.
Having a high amount of AoEs means your not waiting around for recharging powers to hit, and you can just continue on with nuking things. Most of those hard hitting powers are on longer recharges.
a SS/fire brute has suvivial going for it. a fire/fire blaster would easily out damage it, due to recharge limitations, once survivial is no longer an issue.
Quote:
I'm not denying that people use those builds to farm. I've also seen people use /sr scrappers to farm. I am denying that they are anywhere near the best at it, which if they are indeed such better damage (especially aoe as claimed) than anything else they should be the best at it shouldn't they? I mean farming is about killing as many foes as you can as fast as you can. Shouldn't the aoe kings excel beyond anyone else at it then?|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
I don't know, i know quite a few pretty good blaster farming builds.
Fire/mental Archery/Mental Archery/EM Fire/fire finding a good farm toon is all about what you plan on killing. As any of the above builds can kill just as fast, or even faster then some of the big name builds, depending on what you fight. |
"Pretty good" at killing the weakest spawns doesn't equate to being the "best" aoe toons in the game from where I'm sitting. And if they are just "pretty good" at it against push over mobs, I don't see things getting better against harder mobs, but I guess anything is possible.
The way I see it we have two strong and quantifiable tests floating around that focus heavily on testing ones damage dealing abilities. While it would be nice if we had more tests for more data points and possibly a more accurate picture that doesn't necessarily mean the existing tests are easily dismissed.
When it comes to aoe damage dealing farming is about as good a test as they come. Deliberately easy spawns, designed to be mowed down with aoe damage while putting a minimal strain on survivability.
When it comes to st damage dealing the current measuring stick is rikti pylons. They are pretty equal to everyone in that surviving isn't particularly difficult (w/ insp) and your outgoing dps is very easily quantified.
Blasters aren't the best, or anywhere near the best, in either case, which leads me to fail to see how anyone can thus make the claim that they are the best damage dealers.
Quote:
The problem with using Farming, and Rikti Pylons as a metric, is it favors those with higher surivivial in nearly all cases, you have to be able to survive the damage from mass farming, and survive the damage the Pylons dishes out. While some blasters can do both, blasters aren't built to survive, they are built to do damage.|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
The way I see it we have two strong and quantifiable tests floating around that focus heavily on testing ones damage dealing abilities. While it would be nice if we had more tests for more data points and possibly a more accurate picture that doesn't necessarily mean the existing tests are easily dismissed.
When it comes to aoe damage dealing farming is about as good a test as they come. Deliberately easy spawns, designed to be mowed down with aoe damage while putting a minimal strain on survivability. When it comes to st damage dealing the current measuring stick is rikti pylons. They are pretty equal to everyone in that surviving isn't particularly difficult (w/ insp) and your outgoing dps is very easily quantified. Blasters aren't the best, or anywhere near the best, in either case, which leads me to fail to see how anyone can thus make the claim that they are the best damage dealers. |
So the best way to test 'damage' is to put a team together were 'survivial' isn't an issue, and see what out damages what.
Basically, get a tanker, have it throw taunt on auto, and target a pylon, then have a kin SB both a scrapper, and a blaster, and have then goto town on it. See who does more.
Quote:
The game doesn't work the way you are imagining it to work. If there was a steady stream of spawns without pause then the ability to seamlessly string together aoe's would be of more value. But that rarely occurs in game.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Mutliple blaster AoEs out damage the AoEs found in scrapper and brute combinations.
In the same time you can dish out LR + SC, a fire blaster can do about 5.6 fireballs (at base recharge) which will outdamage your big boom of LR + SC. Having a high amount of AoEs means your not waiting around for recharging powers to hit, and you can just continue on with nuking things. Most of those hard hitting powers are on longer recharges. a SS/fire brute has suvivial going for it. a fire/fire blaster would easily out damage it, due to recharge limitations, once survivial is no longer an issue. |
What does occur is spawns set up nicely for a burst aoe. All you need is enough aoe to defeat them and then have that aoe potential ready to go again for the next spawn.
The fact that a fire/fire blaster has 83 aoe's is meaningless if a ss/fire brute can put out enough aoe damage in the same timeframe up to and including the point that the spawn is defeated and then repeat it again by the time the next spawn is engaged.
It is the quality of aoe's that matter, not the quantity. We know this because even a fire/fire blaster will quickly start eliminating their 'weaker' aoes by adding additional recharge to their build so that can use their 'stronger/quality' aoes more frequently.
Quantity of aoe's is of increased importance to MM's because their pets are recharge locked, but even then it's not like quality of them takes a back seat as something like assault bot's incendiary missile is still way better in one shot than all the merc's chaining together their pew pews.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
The problem with using Farming, and Rikti Pylons as a metric, is it favors those with higher surivivial in nearly all cases, you have to be able to survive the damage from mass farming, and survive the damage the Pylons dishes out. While some blasters can do both, blasters aren't built to survive, they are built to do damage.
So the best way to test 'damage' is to put a team together were 'survivial' isn't an issue, and see what out damages what. Basically, get a tanker, have it throw taunt on auto, and target a pylon, then have a kin SB both a scrapper, and a blaster, and have then goto town on it. See who does more. |
At any rate, that isn't the case as their are plenty of higher end blaster builds that easily have the survivability to take on large spawns of weak enemies like those used in farms. And yet they still aren't the fastest even when survivability isn't an issue.
As for pylons, they really aren't hard to survive against. Def insp do the vast majority of the leg work, but sure, take your blaster and ask in the thread, I'm sure someone will happily taunt or support you to find out how well your toon does. I'm very confident you won't beat the best scrapper times, let alone come near some of the toons at the top of the list. The result will be them outdamaging you and out surviving you because they didn't need support to do the task.
As for doing it as a team, sure why not. Given the blaster apparently can't do it on their own and requires support (not the position I hold as at least a couple blasters have done it, but anyway) how much faster should the team with the blaster kill it compared to subbing in something else that CAN survive the task without support? What's a reasonable increase in kill speed given the increased support needed?
Quote:
Not really. If scrappers are so much better, as is being implied, then one AV out of the whole TF shouldn't be a reason to invite an "inferior" AT instead, now, should it? |
Originally Posted by EricHough
However you stand on the current argument Claws, this is a huge red herring - blasters are preferred over melee on MoSTF runs because of Ghost widow - you need a lot of damage to take here down and can only afford to have your tank in melee range, so you need ranged damage/debuffs and can only afford to have 1-2 extra melee folks.
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What difference should it make between a blaster, and a softcapped SR or Shield scrapper? I mean, it's her heal that we're worried about, right? If it doesn't hit you there's no problem.
Seriously? ONE AV is reason enough for a team to invite an AT that is supposedly inferior to a scrapper in every measurable way?
And because I don't feel like multiquoting here: If there's a need to be babysat on teams, that isn't the sign of a bad AT, that's the sign of a bad player.
I keep hearing all this about "blasters are underpowered!", and I'm just not buying it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
The best influence/times I have seen are vs. uplevel enemies. Even spawns of weak enemies are challenging at +2, especially if bosses are left on (although I suspect that turning them off is the better farming route).|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
At any rate, that isn't the case as their are plenty of higher end blaster builds that easily have the survivability to take on large spawns of weak enemies like those used in farms. And yet they still aren't the fastest even when survivability isn't an issue.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
As for doing it as a team, sure why not. Given the blaster apparently can't do it on their own and requires support (not the position I hold as at least a couple blasters have done it, but anyway) how much faster should the team with the blaster kill it compared to subbing in something else that CAN survive the task without support? What's a reasonable increase in kill speed given the increased support needed?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
If you're just having fun, any AT you bring doesn't matter. If defeats start getting important, then what you are saying is certainly the case. It's not even an MoSTF where you have to worry about a Scrapper in melee, either. On an MoITF, more people in melee means more people that the healing nictus can make use of and def debuffs on a Scrapper can add up to danger even faster than a Brute or a Tank; LGTF has plenty of instances where melee is less useful (and a potential weakness, like with the 4 Riders that cause fear and -end, making it easier to fail); and Kahn has Reichsman, who does do a good amount of damage up close and has that PITA stun attack that mezzes through mez resistance. Of course tanks have to worry about this as well (*sighs* my Fire/Fire certainly did last night), but it is another reason to limit how many people you have up close to a hard target.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not really. If scrappers are so much better, as is being implied, then one AV out of the whole TF shouldn't be a reason to invite an "inferior" AT instead, now, should it?
What difference should it make between a blaster, and a softcapped SR or Shield scrapper? I mean, it's her heal that we're worried about, right? If it doesn't hit you there's no problem. Seriously? ONE AV is reason enough for a team to invite an AT that is supposedly inferior to a scrapper in every measurable way? And because I don't feel like multiquoting here: If there's a need to be babysat on teams, that isn't the sign of a bad AT, that's the sign of a bad player. I keep hearing all this about "blasters are underpowered!", and I'm just not buying it. |
Good Scrapper players can do fine up close on those mobs, but they're also the easiest to get into trouble: especially with the average player, and even on a well-played one. Melee damage gets pity spots if you're really trying to min/max. Heck, everything other than extreme buff/debuff does for min/maxxers... there really are a few sets out there that are nutty for what they can do.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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With Blasters this is especially untrue.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
It doesn't matter how you chain the attacks together, as the blaster as more attacks available more often then the scrapper does. Faster recharging attacks do better DPS (and Damage per cycle) then slower recharging attacks. Even if said slower recharging attacks hit much harder (look at inferno's damage per cycle for example, which ironically enough is higher then shield charge)
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You want the highest Damage/time attacks to come just after aim and buildup. If your combo doesn't have aim and build up, you want highest damage/time attacks come at peaks in defiance.
The above is only valid if you are optimizing your damage against targets that will either be up long enough to need highest damage over/time for several attack sequences.
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| Luckily for the Dev's, there is no such powerset that can cycle 150+ damage attacks in 5 seconds, or less. You bet best is a elec/shield scrapper, and even them, at best case, fully IO'ed have a 30 (not 3-4) second gap on their massive AoE attacks, as the other attacks do much less damage, in a much less area. |
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
On an MoITF, more people in melee means more people that the healing nictus can make use of and def debuffs on a Scrapper can add up to danger even faster than a Brute or a Tank; LGTF has plenty of instances where melee is less useful (and a potential weakness, like with the 4 Riders that cause fear and -end, making it easier to fail); and Kahn has Reichsman, who does do a good amount of damage up close and has that PITA stun attack that mezzes through mez resistance. Of course tanks have to worry about this as well (*sighs* my Fire/Fire certainly did last night), but it is another reason to limit how many people you have up close to a hard target.
Good Scrapper players can do fine up close on those mobs, but they're also the easiest to get into trouble: especially with the average player, and even on a well-played one. Melee damage gets pity spots if you're really trying to min/max. Heck, everything other than extreme buff/debuff does for min/maxxers... there really are a few sets out there that are nutty for what they can do. |
Most people separate the healer from Romulus for that.
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I can't say with certainty what predominant practice is, but in the past most blaster farmers I know tended to purple farm at negative difficulties.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The best influence/times I have seen are vs. uplevel enemies. Even spawns of weak enemies are challenging at +2, especially if bosses are left on (although I suspect that turning them off is the better farming route).
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Or really warped TF design.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not really. If scrappers are so much better, as is being implied, then one AV out of the whole TF shouldn't be a reason to invite an "inferior" AT instead, now, should it?
What difference should it make between a blaster, and a softcapped SR or Shield scrapper? I mean, it's her heal that we're worried about, right? If it doesn't hit you there's no problem. |
And on the softcapped issue that's a bit misleading. She is at +4 and has a good chance of hitting through the softcap.
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Obviously you don't know how the softcap actually works.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
And on the softcapped issue, that's a bit misleading. She is at +4 and has a good chance of hitting through the softcap.
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http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_M...cs#Data_Tables
a +4 AV, has no tohit modifications, so they only thier accmods bonus, which means, against the softcap, they only have a 10.5% chance tohit. Pretty sure, thats not a 'good chance' at all.
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Obviously|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Obviously you don't know how the softcap actually works.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_M...cs#Data_Tables a +4 AV, has no tohit modifications, so they only thier accmods bonus, which means, against the softcap, they only have a 10.5% chance tohit. Pretty sure, thats not a 'good chance' at all. |
Edit: that was a direction I have been trying not to go
So let me show you why.
# enemies in range, Ghost widows chance to heal 10% to hit chance
1, .1
2. .19
3. .271
4. .34
That is why she has a good chance to get through the softcap if you have people in range
and that is why you don't want to bring much melee to a stf, if you do you can go forever and never overcome GWs heal.
And you pretty much said, that you only need as much AoEs and you have enemy hitpoints, so once you hit the threshold of 400 damage, minions die, and 800 Lts die. and a scrapper (i assumed elec/shield) would be able to do that every 3-4 seconds.
The problem is the recharge limitations, and nothing can kill entire gruops of minions and LTs every 3 - 4 seconds. Yes, LR + SC can wipe them all out, BUT even in a fully IO'ed build, thats once every 30 seconds. During that same time, a blaster can rotate more attacks, and do as much, or even more damage. Its in not as big of a boom, but its still there. Thats my point.
The pretty boom of LR + SC doesnt negate the MUCH lower Damage per cycle it has, which a blaster can easily out do under the same situations.
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Thats for her to hit 1 person, having all of them within range. Her heal will heal for 10% of her hitpoints, per target affected. what your saying, is with 4 people in range, she has on average a 34% chance to hit 1 of them, and heal herself for 10%. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Edit: that was a direction I have been trying not to go
So let me show you why. # enemies in range, Ghost widows chance to heal 10% to hit chance 1, .1 2. .19 3. .271 4. .34 That is why she has a good chance to get through the softcap if you have people in range and that is why you don't want to bring much melee to a stf, if you do you can go forever and never overcome GWs heal. |
Its still very much doable, and she doesn't punch through the softcap, its just the way the percentages compound. she still only has a 10% chance to hit each one, and could very much miss each person, as each roll is independent of the other, they just all happen at once, due to being an AoE. plus, her streak breaker at that range means she can still miss 100 times before it'll force her to hit 1 (at 10.5% chance tohit)
Edit: The inclusion of Fire/Psi doms in the comparison also would seem to suggest he wasn't talking about /1
And to be clear, I can't think of anything that can't handle 0/1 at a rate that killing things isn't the problem, but travel,zoning, and running the map are. Maybe some sort of emp that didn't take attacks.