Why A Blaster?


Adelie

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliin View Post
I'm not completely sure if you're being sarcastic or not here, but either way that statement just bothers me. Does the ability of a controller to lock down enemies negate the survivability advantage a tank has over a scrapper and therefore indicate the two ATs should have more similar damage? I mean, if the ability to negate the survivability advantage scrappers have over blasters makes it ok for scrappers to equal (or just about that) blaster damage then shouldn't it be ok for tankers to equal scrapper damage too?

I'm aware that's somewhat of a weak argument, but my point is that ATs should be balanced against each other not balanced by the inclusion of another because in the case where that 'other' either isn't there or isn't doing its job effectively then problems will tend to arise. Sadly I don't think blasters are currently very balanced against other damage ATs as far as damage versus survivability goes, and even more sad than that is I don't really think the game would hold up well to a blaster damage increase that would bring their balance 'in line'.

That said, I like my blasters. I think they're fun and I doubt I'll stop playing or making them anytime soon, but I also think they're poorly balanced.
You just summed up my exact feelings.

I'd like to add that it isn't until you start stacking multiple buffers that blasters start to look good. What I mean is a single cold (def/corr) will usually put the def based toons on the team within sneezing distance of softcap, but it will only put the blasters around ~20% def.

Of course that is far better than nothing, but due to how def and resistance work where they become stronger and stronger the closer you get to the working caps it usually means that a single thermal does more for an elec armor toons survivability than it does for a blaster.

Once you start stacking enough buff/debuff that a toons own protective measures no longer matter then sure blasters start to shine pretty darn well in terms of killing tons of stuff without risking being instantly vaporized as a result.

But on that note, that only really happens because the game has a pretty low ceiling on encounter difficulty. Most toons have no use for 70% def because it is functionally the same (most of the time) as 45%. But if/when the game is made to have more difficult encounters you may well see toons with higher innate survivability + buffers continuing to have use for their ability to survive way better than the blasters+buffers. Who knows.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliin View Post
That said, I like my blasters. I think they're fun and I doubt I'll stop playing or making them anytime soon, but I also think they're poorly balanced.
I am not sure I would use the word poorly. They are uniquely designed, although one could say that tankers and to a lesser extent defenders "suffer" similar issues. For example, you ask, "Does the ability of a controller to lock down enemies negate the survivability advantage a tank has over a scrapper and therefore indicate the two ATs should have more similar damage?" There are some who complain about that very thing. They say the tanker survivability edge is of nebulous benefit, especially throughout most of the game. The devs recently made some changes to address that very concern.

Will they adjust blasters again? I think stalkers are probably (hopefully?) going to get looked into first. What can they do for blasters? They have already once rejected the idea of buffing their mitigation. Their damage level is already very high. Adding more controls could work, but will make them more like dominators (and they are already pretty close as is). Buff/Debuff seems well out of concept. There was a point (long ago) when blasters had a DPE edge and adding that back was considered as one of the changes for I11, but ultimately abandoned (and with inherent Stamina, that does not truly seem like a boon anyway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolblaws View Post
but they should (imo) do clearly more damage than anyone and everyone else. If a scrapper can do anywhere approaching the same damage as a blaster then the blaster has already lost.
Here is a thing I think about. Blasters seem like a popular AT (for now; I have concerns about what dominators may do in the long run). People invite blasters/scrappers/dominators seemingly equally (although doms likely get less attention right now, but as people see more of them and see how well they do, I think it will increase the desire for doms). I rarely see people purposely choosing scrappers over blasters and I rarely see people choosing blasters over scrappers.

Just like with the tanker/brute/scrapper, I think the nebulous nature may be a good thing. If the extra mitigation tankers bring was clearly needed, that forces the game into the trinity role. If blasters were the clear winners in damage as you suggest, it could lead to people clearly wanting blasters for their higher damage and therefore clearly needing buff/debuff and aggro control to keep them standing. It is the fact that things are so close that may be what makes the game more interesting when it comes to team makeup, since so many options work.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
elec/shield
LR = 290.28(base) + (290.28 * 1.95)(BU + enhancements) = 856.32 damage
And everything is dead, or close enough.
Repeatable every 90 seconds
mmmm

elec/shield with build up and saturated AaO = 1451 damage on my mids. Perhaps mids is wrong?

Recharge isn't 90 seconds, it's 27.5 seconds.

I'm sorry if I am not familiar with your approach but using real numbers that will actually be experienced.

PS Shield Charge = 757.9 damage.

Build posted here:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!


 

Posted

There's one problem with all your math and calculations. This goes for both Another Fan and Arbegla.

Not all scrappers are Electric/Shield, and not all blasters are Fire/Fire.

You can't look at the damage of one aberrent scrapper combo and say it is proof that the entire AT is better. Electric/Shield is by far the best scrapper for AoE burst damage, you can't use it as an example and say the results are typical of the entire AT.

I bet the numbers look a whole lot different when you compare an Archery/Mental blaster to an MA/Regen scrapper. Or a Broadsword/Willpower. There are a lot of scrapper combos that are blown away by the average blaster's damage output, and you're completely discarding the fact that they even exist in your comparison.

So, on that note, all your calculations are completely useless when comparing the 2 ATs as a whole. All they do is prove that an Electric/Shield can do comparable damage to a Fire/Fire blaster. It does NOT prove that any random scrapper is going to outdamage any random blaster, far from it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Here is a thing I think about. Blasters seem like a popular AT (for now; I have concerns about what dominators may do in the long run). People invite blasters/scrappers/dominators seemingly equally (although doms likely get less attention right now, but as people see more of them and see how well they do, I think it will increase the desire for doms). I rarely see people purposely choosing scrappers over blasters and I rarely see people choosing blasters over scrappers.
I would say I rarely see anyone picking anything but the first 7 to show up. The exception would be buff/debuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
There's one problem with all your math and calculations. This goes for both Another Fan and Arbegla.

Not all scrappers are Electric/Shield, and not all blasters are Fire/Fire.
Supposedly blasters gave up survivability for damage. Well single target they arent even in the running and AoE its close enough that your results vary by the assumptions you use

That's way to close when simply put the survivability difference is off the chart

Edit:
Quote:
Will they adjust blasters again? I think stalkers are probably (hopefully?) going to get looked into first. What can they do for blasters? They have already once rejected the idea of buffing their mitigation. Their damage level is already very high. Adding more controls could work, but will make them more like dominators (and they are already pretty close as is). Buff/Debuff seems well out of concept. There was a point (long ago) when blasters had a DPE edge and adding that back was considered as one of the changes for I11, but ultimately abandoned (and with inherent Stamina, that does not truly seem like a boon anyway).
Castle posted awhile back, in one of the threads that continuously popped up asking for stamina solution that they would never give free stamina.

And a note currently archery and fire have a bit of a dpe edge.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
I am not sure I would use the word poorly. They are uniquely designed, although one could say that tankers and to a lesser extent defenders "suffer" similar issues. For example, you ask, "Does the ability of a controller to lock down enemies negate the survivability advantage a tank has over a scrapper and therefore indicate the two ATs should have more similar damage?" There are some who complain about that very thing. They say the tanker survivability edge is of nebulous benefit, especially throughout most of the game. The devs recently made some changes to address that very concern.

Will they adjust blasters again? I think stalkers are probably (hopefully?) going to get looked into first. What can they do for blasters? They have already once rejected the idea of buffing their mitigation. Their damage level is already very high. Adding more controls could work, but will make them more like dominators (and they are already pretty close as is). Buff/Debuff seems well out of concept. There was a point (long ago) when blasters had a DPE edge and adding that back was considered as one of the changes for I11, but ultimately abandoned (and with inherent Stamina, that does not truly seem like a boon anyway).


Here is a thing I think about. Blasters seem like a popular AT (for now; I have concerns about what dominators may do in the long run). People invite blasters/scrappers/dominators seemingly equally (although doms likely get less attention right now, but as people see more of them and see how well they do, I think it will increase the desire for doms). I rarely see people purposely choosing scrappers over blasters and I rarely see people choosing blasters over scrappers.

Just like with the tanker/brute/scrapper, I think the nebulous nature may be a good thing. If the extra mitigation tankers bring was clearly needed, that forces the game into the trinity role. If blasters were the clear winners in damage as you suggest, it could lead to people clearly wanting blasters for their higher damage and therefore clearly needing buff/debuff and aggro control to keep them standing. It is the fact that things are so close that may be what makes the game more interesting when it comes to team makeup, since so many options work.
These are all very well thought out StratoNexus.

Certainly something to think about.

My thoughts "naturally" steer over to things like pool powers, which back in the glory days both Blasters and Scrappers could abuse the heck out of. Especially Blasters (stacked smoke, Hasten gave defense, stacking every defense toggle you could get your "paws" on).
So fast forward to now, with all the defensive nerfs, I still get a little "eye twitch" when looking at pools for both Scrappers and Blasters (Especially Blasters) and see numbers for defense that are "horribly low", as opposed to "rather low" (most other ATs). Could it be that they hit Scrappers/Blasters so hard on pool defenses to make sure Blasters could not approach scrapper survivability and Scrappers likewise could not approach Tankers?
Who knows.

Long story short, If Blasters had any shortcomings (not saying that they do), I would consider pushing them more toward the control side of the spectrum. If, as you suspect, Dominators may edge blasters sideways on the player radar, it follows logically (to me) to push Blasters in that direction as well. Then they become two optional flavors in the players' perspective, much as Defender/Corruptors or Scrappers/Tankers/Brutes.

Did that make any sense ?

One should not post at 4AM

-Bio-


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post



Supposedly blasters gave up survivability for damage. Well single target they arent even in the running and AoE its close enough that your results vary by the assumptions you use

That's way to close when simply put the survivability difference is off the chart
Really.

So you're saying a blaster slotted for ranged defense and equipped with Aid Self and Hover, can't come close to scrapper survivability? Not even when they can dictate that nothing be able to attack them except from the position they have defense to?

I have a Sonic/Devices hoverblaster that quite simply doesn't die. And I can keep pace with ANY scrapper on single target damage easily, especially when the fight takes more than a few seconds. And I don't have Build Up available to me.

I also have Siren's Song to make sure that only one enemy can attack me at a time, and if I use Screech or Taser I can wake them up one at a time and have them stunned the entire time. I have gone entire missions without even being attacked, let alone defeated. And this is with a secondary that is considered "gimped". The combination of Cloaking Device and a +Stealth IO means that most mobs will not see me until I attack, and since I open with Siren's Song they are sleeping before they get a shot off.

Now that we have the ability to get an AoE immobilize, on top of the tools I already have available, I can ensure that an entire mob be forced to attack me on MY terms. With my defense to ranged being around 35%, and having Aid Self it is very unlikely that I will die unless several enemies get lucky shots at once, which isn't going to happen because everything I'm fighting is sleeping or stunned. The combination of Soul Tentacles and Night Fall is going to give me the AoE damage output on teams that I currently lack (since my sleep is more or less useless on teams)

My blaster is easily as survivable as most scrappers, because I can dictate the terms of the fight. Nothing gets to attack me unless I decide to let it. My sleep will incapacitate all minions and LTs in a given spawn, and I can stack stuns on bosses to take them out of the fight.

And if you decide to say "Well, that's one specific build and doesn't hold true for ALL blasters".....well, if you can use one specific build to prove a point while ignoring the rest of them, so can I.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
....So you're saying a blaster slotted for ranged defense and equipped with Aid Self and Hover, can't come close to scrapper survivability? Not even when they can dictate that nothing be able to attack them except from the position they have defense to?

I have a Sonic/Devices hoverblaster that quite simply doesn't die. And I can keep pace with ANY scrapper on single target damage easily, especially when the fight takes more than a few seconds. And I don't have Build Up available to me.
....
Hehe,

before anyone says that is a corner case, I will mention my highest level blaster.

Level 47 Energy/Devices hover-blaster with 38% ranged defense, caltrops, PFF and medicine pool.

He laughs at Cimeroans (well as long as he can keep them at range) and if he gets hurt (it happens), bubble-up + Aid Self + bubble off, continue destroying where he left off.

one of my favorite quotes is : "death is not an option"


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

A shield scrapper on SOs isn't going to perform all that well. I don't know a single scrapper in those pylon tests that isn't IOed out. Not that I'm endorsing the pylon tests as the definitive benchmark for performance, I think it's a waste of time. Most things in this game die in a few aoe volleys, sustained DPS is only meaningful in maybe 5% of game content, if that much.

Any blaster can softcap defense through IOs, just like shield scrappers achieve soft cap through IOs.

Currently I run my blasters softcapped to range with 50% s/l resist for layered defenses, along with ~50% recharge bonus. I don't see any sacrifices to my offense for this other than the lowered recharge compared to a pure recharge build.

With i19 I can have it all, my fire/elec/leviathan is planned to have softcapped range def, 50% s/l resist, and 80% recharge plus hasten.

Put a blaster on equal footing and the survivability argument holds a bit less ground. I'll concede the deficiency in mez protection though. Unlike a s/l def build, however, when mezzed a range capped defense blaster is still going to retain a significant portion of his def bonuses because he isn't as reliant on the epic shield.

Sure I'm not getting defense to all positions like a scrapper does but the scrapper is limited by being able to do his thing in melee range. You can toss examples like epic or spines or claws but really, if a scrapper stood at the perimeters spamming those attacks then he isn't being 100%.

The blaster, on the other hand, enjoys the luxury of being able to dish out pain from range more consistently, this means that they can be on the offensive even when running away. They can also hop in and out of combat to make use of their secondary. Before anyone makes the claim that melee is bad or thinks they need s/l defense to go into melee, go watch someone joust melee attacks/pbaoes.

In the end it all comes down to how much are you going to invest in your toons. EZ mode is ez mode regardless of AT.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Really.

So you're saying a blaster slotted for ranged defense and equipped with Aid Self and Hover, can't come close to scrapper survivability? Not even when they can dictate that nothing be able to attack them except from the position they have defense to?

.

There are no non positional attacks in the game you have 0 defense to ?


 

Posted

My first AT was a blaster, an Energy / Devices which I painfully brought from 1 to 50, mostly through soloing and before the Defiance changes (toggle dropping age). When I started playing the other ATs, mostly doms, brutes and stalkers, I realized I hate my blaster. In fact, I hate all blasters. From my experience with the AT, I think the problem with blasters is twofold.

1) Blasters almost always seem to get the worst version of a (non-damage) power in the game, which greatly diminishes their controls and therefore, their mitigation. I've always been made to believe the game has Archetypes instead of classes, similar powers with only slight differences but that's not true of blasters. Look for example at Electric/ Tesla Coil, and match it against troller/dom versions - what you get is pitiful damage, less than half its hold duration and significantly lenghtier recharge. And all across the board, it's the same, if it's not a damage power, chances are the blaster version of that power is probably garbage.

Because they don't have direct mitigation, blasters depend on those controls to survive. Why are they so bad? Fire/Fire, for example, actually has only one control, the 1st power of their secondary, Fire Ring Circle. Again, comparing it to troller/dom, it only has mag3 immob (vs mag4), only 40ft range (vs 80ft) and lasts for about 1/3 of their versions. /Electric's Electric fence doesn't even have the -fly the troller/dom version has. And if you think it's only blaster vs troller/dom, look at the tanker's Lightning Clap, with a base mag2 stun + 50% chance for mag3 stun, whereas the blaster's only has a base 50% chance for mag2 stun. Yes, amazingly enough, even tankers have better versions of blaster controls.

Thess discrepancies would be where I'd start, updating blaster controls to other AT numbers, if giving slightly (slightly, not double or triple or...) greater mez durations to trollers/doms versions of the same power.

2) Some Primaries and some Secondaries try to be different, and thus suck. I'm not trying to start a flamewar here, but the truth is Electric/ needs that third attack more than it needed a buggy pet, Energy/ needs to have its AoE attacks changed to knockdown instead of knockback (or some form of protection against /teamkick) and /Devices needs to actually do something in teams other than being invisible and annoying everyone about waiting 15 secs to set up a timebomb. But the devs won't get into this, no matter how many times it's asked, so disreguard this. It's a problem with no solution in sight.

Once again, I'd start with blaster controls rather than giving blasters more damage or mitigations, which will never amount to much anyway. If that doesn't work, we can always go back to whining here in the forums while rolling new doms and brutes.

P.S. If you haven't read the above already, WARNING! WALL OF TEXT ABOVE! MAY CAUSE HEADACHES AND STOMACH ACHES!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
1) Blasters almost always seem to get the worst version of a (non-damage) power in the game, which greatly diminishes their controls and therefore, their mitigation. I've always been made to believe the game has Archetypes instead of classes, similar powers with only slight differences but that's not true of blasters. Look for example at Electric/ Tesla Coil, and match it against troller/dom versions - what you get is pitiful damage, less than half its hold duration and significantly lenghtier recharge. And all across the board, it's the same, if it's not a damage power, chances are the blaster version of that power is probably garbage.

Because they don't have direct mitigation, blasters depend on those controls to survive. Why are they so bad? Fire/Fire, for example, actually has only one control, the 1st power of their secondary, Fire Ring Circle. Again, comparing it to troller/dom, it only has mag3 immob (vs mag4), only 40ft range (vs 80ft) and lasts for about 1/3 of their versions. /Electric's Electric fence doesn't even have the -fly the troller/dom version has. And if you think it's only blaster vs troller/dom, look at the tanker's Lightning Clap, with a base mag2 stun + 50% chance for mag3 stun, whereas the blaster's only has a base 50% chance for mag2 stun. Yes, amazingly enough, even tankers have better versions of blaster controls.

Once again, I'd start with blaster controls rather than giving blasters more damage or mitigations, which will never amount to much anyway. If that doesn't work, we can always go back to whining here in the forums while rolling new doms and brutes.
Lets actually compare all aspects shall we?

Blaster controls
Electric Fence -> 20% chance for -100% recovery, -2.8% end, 62.56 damage, 4s recharge, 17.88 duration, Mag 3 immobilize, 1.0 acc, 7.8 end, +7.7% damage, 50ft range, -KB
Controller version
Electric Fence -> 20% chance for -100% recovery, -2.8% end, 30.59 damage, 4s recharge, 27.94 duration, Mag 4 immobilize, 20% chance for Mag 1 immobilize, 1.2 acc, 7.8 end, -fly, 80ft range, -KB

Blaster
Ring of Fire -> 96.34 damage, 6s recharge, 17.88 duration, Mag 3 Immobilize, 1.0 acc, 7.8 end, +7.7% damage, 50ft range, -KB, -fly
Controller
Ring of Fire -> 33.64 damage, 4s recharge, 27.94 duration, Mag 4 immobilize, 20% chance for Mag 1 immobilize, 1.2 Acc, 7.8 end, 80ft, -fly, -kb

Blaster
Lightning Clap -> 13 end, 1.0 acc, 15ft radius, 50% chance for Mag 2 stun, 9.5s duration, Mag 2.077 KB, +2.5% damage, 30s recharge
Tanker
Lightning Clap -> 13 end, .8 acc, 15ft radius, Mag 2 stun for 9.5s duration, 50% chance for a Mag 1 stun for 9.5% duration, Mag 5.193 KB, Mag 4 taunt, 30s recharge


So, in all those cases, the blaster is either more damaging (electric fences, ring of fire) or is more accurate. (lightning clap)
Yes, blasters aren't as controlling as controller, or has as much crowd management as tankers, but what they do have, is more damage. which is what a blaster needs.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly View Post
mmmm

elec/shield with build up and saturated AaO = 1451 damage on my mids. Perhaps mids is wrong?

Recharge isn't 90 seconds, it's 27.5 seconds.

I'm sorry if I am not familiar with your approach but using real numbers that will actually be experienced.

PS Shield Charge = 757.9 damage.

Build posted here:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!
You have the BU proc in Buildup, which is giving your mids another 100% damage. You also have 17.5% extra damage from set bonus. What i was using was an SO slotted build, with basically 3 damage SOs slotted in each attack, and no recharge at all, to show base values.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
There are no non positional attacks in the game you have 0 defense to ?
Those same attacks, would rip up anything that relies on positional defense, and as no way of attacking back. Running up to mother mayhem sucks for an SR, as she gets 2 - 3 hits off before the SR even gets into range to start putting on the serious amounts of hurt.

A blaster can use range to their advantage, and take out psionic using enemies before they hit the blaster.

I am aware there are some scrappers that can have ranged attacks, and they may even be able to 1 shot a minion with them, but in more cases, the scrapper has limited range, where the blaster has mostly range.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
Lets actually compare all aspects shall we?

Blaster controls
Electric Fence -> 20% chance for -100% recovery, -2.8% end, 62.56 damage, 4s recharge, 17.88 duration, Mag 3 immobilize, 1.0 acc, 7.8 end, +7.7% damage, 50ft range, -KB
Controller version
Electric Fence -> 20% chance for -100% recovery, -2.8% end, 30.59 damage, 4s recharge, 27.94 duration, Mag 4 immobilize, 20% chance for Mag 1 immobilize, 1.2 acc, 7.8 end, -fly, 80ft range, -KB

Blaster
Ring of Fire -> 96.34 damage, 6s recharge, 17.88 duration, Mag 3 Immobilize, 1.0 acc, 7.8 end, +7.7% damage, 50ft range, -KB, -fly
Controller
Ring of Fire -> 33.64 damage, 4s recharge, 27.94 duration, Mag 4 immobilize, 20% chance for Mag 1 immobilize, 1.2 Acc, 7.8 end, 80ft, -fly, -kb

Blaster
Lightning Clap -> 13 end, 1.0 acc, 15ft radius, 50% chance for Mag 2 stun, 9.5s duration, Mag 2.077 KB, +2.5% damage, 30s recharge
Tanker
Lightning Clap -> 13 end, .8 acc, 15ft radius, Mag 2 stun for 9.5s duration, 50% chance for a Mag 1 stun for 9.5% duration, Mag 5.193 KB, Mag 4 taunt, 30s recharge


So, in all those cases, the blaster is either more damaging (electric fences, ring of fire) or is more accurate. (lightning clap)
Yes, blasters aren't as controlling as controller, or has as much crowd management as tankers, but what they do have, is more damage. which is what a blaster needs.
I think your argument is flawed, you're not weighting things fairly. Blasters have a higher base ranged damage modifier than all other ATs, yes, but this has nothing to do with specific powers in specific sets, it's just a formula to apply to all damage powers. Brutes have higher HP and Res caps than scrappers, and damage aside their identical power sets are pretty much the identical. Yet Blaster controls, are very different (and IMO, damage aside, alot worse) than other AT controls when they should be at least similar.

It's expected for Electric Fence to do more damage and last less on a blaster than on a controller, but it's the other factors that shouldn't be so different (though the damage as you state it is purposely misleading since it leaves out containment, and that damage/duration ratio between blaster and dom is actually very unfair to the blaster). Mag4 vs mag3 means boss vs lieut, 80ft vs 40ft is self explanatory, 30 secs immob vs 15 secs immob means rooting a 3-mob spawn for the rest of the fight in 8 secs vs prob rooting only 1. I'll leave out all the other goodies. The Lightning Clap argument is just ridiculous, of course the tanker version is better (and the funny thing is that they don't even take it). You don't compensate for all that with just "blasters just need more damage and uhh, sometimes accuracy when it fits". No they don't. They need their controls to work too, else they wouldn't even be there in the first place.

For the sake of argument, you might not want/need controls on a blaster, but I do/do. Even if I'm on a team with the perfect tanker, either he or I will screw up at some point and I don't like to faceplant knowing I'd survive the same action on almost any other AT.

This is just my opinion, I don't care what happens to blasters (since I won't play another one unless things really change), but what I gathered from (too) many hours of gameplay was that, rather than more damage, their controls need to work if they're expected to survive. I see a sapper, I taser it. That's ok. I see a Knives boss, however, I either set up a minefield or pop 3 purples and a BF, and that for me is just wrong.

But if you just want plain numbers, go run the numbers on Tesla Coil between blaster (or defender for that matter) vs dominator and come back with the same answer.


 

Posted

Your also discounting the soft controls available to blasters, which most controllers/dom's don't have.

Rain of fire/ice storm screws up the AI of just about any mobs, minion/LT/boss, doesnt matter, they run the heck out of it. So you blast them while they are running.

Hot feet does the same thing.

Archery has increased range on all three of their single target blasts, plus a ranged nuke, which can down most anything from a very safe area.

Energy blast has KB in nearly all its attacks, same with assault rifle (plus ignite has the afraid tag as well)

Elec blast has some -end, which can be used to prevent you from getting hit by the hard hitting attacks.

Ice blast slows that slow down the enemy, allowing you to get more distance between them and you.

Psi blast has similar slows, as well as more soft controls (sleep, KB)

Sonic has -res, which just gives you more damage.

Fire is pure damage

and dual pistols gives you something for any situation (+damage, KB, -damage, and slows)

If your going to play a blaster like a controller with more damage, your doing something wrong. Blasters are meant to be ranged fighters, until its safe to attack in melee, or its possible to kite.

Taking devices for example, i'd toss a smoke grenade, then throw caltrops. then blast with gun drone, and my primary. or i'd just summon the drone right on top of the boss, so it'll take the alpha, then caltrops to freak the AI, then blast.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Words
Yes, you can go through missions slow as molasses and then claim that you are very safe. Yes, an IOd blaster can come close to an SOd scrappers survivability

Yes, you can take the most controllery of blasters and be very safe, but also have low damage output (relative to less safe blasters). You are sacrificing blaster damage to be safer on that blaster. The question others are asking is, "What do many scrappers give up for their mix of safety and damage?" Sure, not all scrappers encroach on Fire blaster damage. But those that do, do not have to make sacrifices in their survivability in order to gain that damage (OK, that is not strictly true. Generally /Fire and /Elec sacrifice relative to other armor sets. /Shield is odd. However, even /Fire and /Electric have gobs more survivability than blasters, so they are not sacrificing their survivability for their damage).

Blaster safety, generally, is the kind that requires sacrifice in another area. It normally requires you to sacrifice time dealing damage in order to spend time staying safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
I would say I rarely see anyone picking anything but the first 7 to show up. The exception would be buff/debuff.
I agree. If our observations match reality in general, I think that is a good thing and a sign that we may not want things messed with. I am concerned that if blasters do become more obviously better for damage dealing, people may be more insistent on making sure to have blasters on a team, rather than being content with brutes/scrappers/dominators.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Eh, controller have very hard controls, and while some are soft, they dont have the damage to take full advantage of them.

KB on a controller means the mobs aren't hitting them, which is true, but they cant deal enough damage to kill all the mobs before the soft controls wear off.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
Eh, controller have very hard controls, and while some are soft, they dont have the damage to take full advantage of them.

KB on a controller means the mobs aren't hitting them, which is true, but they cant deal enough damage to kill all the mobs before the soft controls wear off.
Possibly, but of course the soft controls do give them more time to get more hard controls applied and do give the team more time to deal damage (I almost never think of things in just solo or just teamed situations, but rather how they apply to both). Many controller soft controls are also quite long lasting.

Dominators DO have the damage to take full advantage of their soft controls (as do scrappers/brutes incidentally).


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Possibly, but of course the soft control do give them more time to get more hard controls applied and do give the team more time to deal damage (I almost never think of things in just solo or just teamed situations, but rather how they apply to both). Many controller soft controls are also quite long lasting.

Dominators DO have the damage to take full advantage of their soft controls (as do scrappers/brutes incidentally).
QFT.

To the extent that Controllers rely on soft control, that soft control is usually more consistently available than hard control. That's sorta the point. An Ice/Storm Controller, for example, has access to two huge area-of-effect chain-knockdown, slow powers (Ice Slick and Freezing Rain).

With no IO bonuses and no Hasten, Ice Slick has a 66% up-time ratio. (90-second cooldown becomes ~45 with three SOs, and the duration is 30 seconds.) It's not hard to make Ice Slick effectively permanent, and there simply is no comparable option available to Blasters. Ditto Earthquake (which is basically Ice Slick with a -DEF debuff instead of a slow).

At the high-end, many Controller builds aren't exactly terrible for damage output, either. Doms are certainly near the top for DPS.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Someone tried to make the laughable comparison between Blaster controls and Dom/Controller powers in a similar thread more than a year ago. Or rather, someone inadvertently made that comparison because he (or she) was too close to the argument and lost track of what he was saying.

Similarly, it was popular some years ago (in the wake of the great AoE-hold nerf) on the Controller forum to complain about Blaster control capability, simply because certain Blaster builds could theoretically take more hard-control powers. Unfortunately, it's very easy to take even a valid argument too far.

Counting control powers is misleading. Neither hard control nor soft control is categorically better than the other; which is preferable depends on the situation and the specific powers in question. Some powers affect more targets, are more consistently available, provide a more useful effect, etc. There's also an opportunity cost for applying pure control powers. For example, a Blaster with three single-target holds may look like he has more control than an Energy Blaster, but the latter can keep an opponent on its backside as a natural consequence of attacking, whereas the former has to sacrifice DPS (and/or reposition himself) to apply a hold.

So which of those two is better in practice? It depends on the situation. Sometimes a discrete hold is better; sometimes a consistent soft-control secondary effect is better. The only thing that's absolutely certain is that any Controller/Dom has light-years better control than any Blaster.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

I'll agree 100% that a controller will control better then a blaster, in any situation.

You just can't disregard the blaster's ability to control, even if the controller does it better, as the blaster has the damage to back up the little controls they have.

A dom most certainly could kill things that are soft/hold controlled, but a blaster would do it faster, due to access to AoEs, and such. Maybe not safer though..


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
There are no non positional attacks in the game you have 0 defense to ?
Those same attacks, would rip up anything that relies on positional defense, and as no way of attacking back. Running up to mother mayhem sucks for an SR, as she gets 2 - 3 hits off before the SR even gets into range to start putting on the serious amounts of hurt.

A blaster can use range to their advantage, and take out psionic using enemies before they hit the blaster.

I am aware there are some scrappers that can have ranged attacks, and they may even be able to 1 shot a minion with them, but in more cases, the scrapper has limited range, where the blaster has mostly range.

Sorry you didn't catch it, I was calling Claws out on the overstatement. Most of the non positional attacks in the game are mezzing which I am sure he is well aware of, and have the effect of destroying a blasters defense.

Best Example: Carnie Bosses


 

Posted

Even then, the blaster is hovering. Mez'es don't drop your toggles it just supresses them, which i think we've already been though.

and that same carnie boss, will rip up an SR just as easy.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
Even then, the blaster is hovering. Mez'es don't drop your toggles it just supresses them, which i think we've already been though.

and that same carnie boss, will rip up an SR just as easy.

When a toggle is suppressed it provides no def benefit. The hovering s/l blaster that relies on weave, the epic shield, combat jumping and or maneuvers loses all the def they provide. Just as a S.W.A.G. that is about 20% def gone.

So while the blaster and the SR have the same defense to the non positional, the SR still has its scaling resists,greater hp, ability to continue at full damage output, and it still has its defense to everything that doesn't bypass its positional defense.