Why A Blaster?
Between Incarnates and inherent fitness, I think just about everything except maybe defenders has become the next farm ATs and I am not all that sure about defenders being left out anymore.
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Depending on just want incarnate powers bring then who knows. Like you say though, pretty much everyone and their dog can take out /x8 stuff these days. Damage is something that everyone is packing in spades.
Blasters benefit tremendously from IOs actually. Mainly because you can IO for massive Defense, but IOing for massive Damage pretty much does not work out.
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For me to go with a single positional type of def (ie range) I have to dedicate a tremendous portion of my IO's to that goal. Few of the ranged boosting sets bring such valuable additions as global rech and damage procs.
If I focus on s/l def the task is much easier due to 2 epic armors offering 10.5 def (base). So that route gives me a bit more flexibly to pick up some sets that boost global rech and have damage procs.
Conversely, my bs/shield has 32% def w/ weave, cj, steadfast and slotting (as well as ~38% global rech from slotting them). As a result I need to focus much less with my set IO's on adding additional def. In this case I need 13% def from IO's to softcap compared to 35-40% for the positionally focused blaster. What that means is once I'm done upping my def I can focus on procs, recharge, and anything else I desire.
At the end of the day I can't add much in the way of +damage through IO's, but the affect of being able to increase global recharge and add procs with much more ease compared to the blaster(s) ends up pretty dramatically boosting damage. Probably far more than if you could get like +80-100% damage buff through IO's, but had to give up the +rech and procs.
Basically a softcapped blaster (through individual build) isn't nearly as survivable as a softcapped any other AT because they all have more powerful tools to begin with and we all understand the multiplicative nature of layering protection. So in actuality the survivability gap widens as opposed to narrows like is being suggested. While on the other hand the ability to pack gobs of +rech and procs compared to most blasters (assuming everyone is aiming for def first) does do a decent job of narrowing the damage gap between blasters and other AT's.
There is little doubt that blasters benefit a huge amount from IO's, but pretty much everyone else can benefit more. Whether the game scales well enough for the other AT's to flex their more powerful muscles is a different matter...It can and does, but not everyone takes advantage of it, or wants to.
I can certainly get behind the above. I have always said that shield defense on a scrapper is truly amazing for its ability to absorb all nearby inf and benefit from it. Its really no surprise that /shield builds are amongst the most expensive builds in the game but will actually pay back their cost in very reasonable time.
You can max out a blaster relatively cheaply, we are talking about around 1/3 the cost of a high end scrapper, but when you are done you wind up with much lower return on what you spent in inf and in time working it out. If its your main, and you are attached to it that's one thing but if you are talking performance its another.
Ya I chose to use shield as an example simply because it is so receptive to IO'ing and because so much of the conversation has focused on scrappers. While shield is a clear demonstration of the affect IO's can have it certainly isn't unique to that secondary among scrappers. With the addiiton of powers like shadow meld sets like fire, elec, and dark armor that typically have issues reaching high defense levels can now gain tremendous power through recharge. Recharge was always highly desirable for those secondaries due to the power of their heals and now they gain a huge advantage in survivability (if they so choose) without having to sacrifice any build parameters or refocus IO bonuses.
I could have just as easily picked something like dominators because when it comes to solo performance gained through IO's they stand head and shoulders above everyone else. Controllers are another example that tends to gain a lot more from them than blasters certainly (and most AT's for that matter).
IME the AT's that benefit most from IO's are ones that are very receptive to recharge (ie doms), the way IO's let you slot the equivalent of over 10 SO's into a single power (trollers), and the AT's that can easily reach high mitigation levels with minimal build sacrifice (scrappers, brutes). There are certainly specific combos within the other ATs that are also very receptive, but imo those 4 AT's seem to respond the best (across their entirety) when it comes to IO'ing.
While i do agree with the above statements, regarding blasters and IOs, in general, it depends on what exactly your aiming for.
While high defense, and high recharge are both main goals of most builds, there are other things to consider, that IOs can provide.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I've seem stalker builds getting as high as 50% global damage bonus, as well as high recharge, and defense. Granted, they were PvP builds, but it is possible.
Most anyone can easily hit 30% from normal slotting. And its unaffected by ED, so you can ED cap damage on an attack, then get 30%+ slotting on top of that. Really makes a difference in some builds.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
IOs can benefit everybody-- arguing about who benefits more is kind of fruitless, as any AT can do much more than it could otherwise by using them. You can make slight arguments for ATs that have a lot of high recharge powers that can do good things (like Kheldians and Doms), but it's mostly just enhancing what is already there. Surprise, that!
For Scrappers and Blasters, IOs are capable of doing much the same thing: making them more survivable and able to do more damage. Arguably more than they should have without support (or even at all), but it's too late to make def caps be different depending on the AT, if that's the way Castle still thinks about it.
No matter what, they're still going to show what was there at the start. That Scrappers are good soloers and can survive more than Blasters, while Blasters have superior AOE and ranged capabilities.
I haven't played much with going for +damage from IO sets, as recharge and defense have always seemed like better goals. If people can get 30-50%, though... that's pretty darn good (and for a Blaster, Defiance would build on that all the time). Hmmmm. If the alpha slot remains anything like it was in the GR beta... an Incarnate Blaster could potentially shoot for a constant damage bonus 50-70% what ED allows them (if I'm doing the math right... 20% beyond the ED cap if you slot right for the Incarnate, plus IO bonuses). Not too shabby, considering that's half or more of what you can buff an attack to normally just from slotting.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
While i do agree with the above statements, regarding blasters and IOs, in general, it depends on what exactly your aiming for.
While high defense, and high recharge are both main goals of most builds, there are other things to consider, that IOs can provide. |
IOs can benefit everybody-- arguing about who benefits more is kind of fruitless, as any AT can do much more than it could otherwise by using them. You can make slight arguments for ATs that have a lot of high recharge powers that can do good things (like Kheldians and Doms), but it's mostly just enhancing what is already there. Surprise, that!
For Scrappers and Blasters, IOs are capable of doing much the same thing: making them more survivable and able to do more damage. Arguably more than they should have without support (or even at all), but it's too late to make def caps be different depending on the AT, if that's the way Castle still thinks about it. |
Which is to say, it's not fruitless at all if you care about IO'ing things.
I quite like IOing out for mez resistance. So long as a Blaster can keep moving, dealing damage, taking cover for Aid Self/insp combining, keeping out of melee.. They can survive almost anything. When making builds, I usually go for +hp to hit the 1500-1600 mark with Accolades, then build from that for recharge and mez res. Sure, building for defense is smart, but is it fun? Being a tankmage can be boring, no challenge (which is why I play Blasters).
I just stumbled across this thread and saw the last few posts so thought I'd add my thoughts on the subject, hope I'm not too late to the party!
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
It's only fruitless in the same way that it is fruitless to argue what kind of car to purchase with the intention of tuning it. Some cars are a lot more receptive to after market modifications because they are overbuilt in stock form and can handle serious upgrades without having to rework internals.
Which is to say, it's not fruitless at all if you care about IO'ing things. |
I can do without such discussions.
And if all you want to say is that IOs make Scrappers more survivable than Blasters, whoopty-do. As I said before, IOs just add on to what is already there, so you're not saying anything we shouldn't know already. Not sure if that's what you're shooting for, but it's common enough in this thread and some posts that I thought I would point it out.
CBeet, building for mez resistance only helps so much, but I don't mind adding that in when I can for Blasters, as I figure even a second or two less of being mezzed makes a difference. Other bonuses are going to help more, but adding in a layer of that does help a little.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
So... your point is what? I noted that IOs will boost any AT, and arguing over who gets boosted most by them is kind of pointless. Each AT has different needs and each player has different metrics for what they want from a build (and you can aim for different things with the exact same powersets). Hence the fruitlessness, as with all those varied needs and requirements, it boils down to "mine gets more out of it!" "no mine!"
I can do without such discussions. |
If you can do without such discussions then you shouldn't enter into one saying things like examining which AT's benefit more than others from IO's is fruitless.
That is demonstratively incorrect. Everyone benefits from IO's, not everyone benefits equally. If someone cares about IO'ing for performance they probably care about how well their choice will respond to the investment (time/inf/effort) they put in to it. If they don't care about IO's then they probably don't care about how much their toon benefits.
You not caring that blasters don't benefit as much from IO's as some other AT's does not equate to understanding IO's as being fruitless.
@Cbeet, mez resistance is ok to slot for. The only problem with it is that it doesn't actually do much given the investment (compared to rech or def). Part of the reason is because of how mez duration works and part of the reason is because it isn't as readily available as some other bonuses.
Blasters also hit 1446hp with just accolades, which can be seen a bonus are a negative depending. They are really easy to hit their hp cap with so not much effort needs to be put into the goal, but that also means that the difference between a baseline blaster and a capped one is very small compared to every other AT.
If you can do without such discussions then you shouldn't enter into one saying things like examining which AT's benefit more than others from IO's is fruitless.
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That is demonstratively incorrect. Everyone benefits from IO's, not everyone benefits equally. If someone cares about IO'ing for performance they probably care about how well their choice will respond to the investment (time/inf/effort) they put in to it. If they don't care about IO's then they probably don't care about how much their toon benefits. |
So what is "demonstratively incorrect" about that? You don't even need IOs to play this game, the devs did that on purpose. So any performance over and above that is entirely to the player's preference, and trying to say you can demonstrate what AT 100% matches every player's expectations for IO benefits is rather fruitless. As long as all ATs have varied avenues to improve their ability via ATs, that's all that matters.
If you want to come in here with some fancy numbers charts and demonstrate for us all what AT actually gets the most out of IOs, go for it. But you had better make sure you take a lot of variables into consideration: there are a lot of powerset combinations and players out there. Have fun with that. (this is why I said it was fruitless, because such a huge amount of work really is not necessary, even if it is possible)
You not caring that blasters don't benefit as much from IO's as some other AT's does not equate to understanding IO's as being fruitless. |
As for baseline performance, meh, that's been posted enough on in the rest of this thread.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
What a player wants to get from IO's is an entirely personal thing, as I noted earlier. This is why arguing which AT gets more is fruitless, as a player's experience and own inclinations are going to influence the discussion more than anything else. |
We can talk about what is achievable with IOs with various ATs
Not what I was talking about.
You cannot IO a low damage character into a high damage one. You can, however, IO a low defense character into a high defense one. This is why I said Blasters benefit tremendously from IOs.
Not what I was talking about.
You cannot IO a low damage character into a high damage one. |
409 Illusion/Cold/Ice Controller - Frosticus
Controllers are rated as "low" damage at character creation. I know there are lots of examples of people IO'ing "low" damage characters until they are easily considered "high" damage by the standards of this game. The above is just the most blatant example I've come across.
You can, however, IO a low defense character into a high defense one. This is why I said Blasters benefit tremendously from IOs. |
Controllers are rated as "low" damage at character creation. I know there are lots of examples of people IO'ing "low" damage characters until they are easily considered "high" damage by the standards of this game. The above is just the most blatant example I've come across.
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As to how helpful damage bonuses are to lower damage characters, I am not sure. Obviously, damage bonuses have more of an impact on people with higher base damage. I have tried to squeeze in decent +damage (15% or more) on several of my damage dealers (getting to +28% on my most aggressive and then stacking Assault on top of that for +38.5%). I am very happy with the results on those characters.
I have only targeted +damage on one of my lower damage dealers. My Emp/Elec/Power has +17.5% global damage and Assault for a total of 36.3% global damage (and more when on small teams now thanks to Vigilance). Before new Vigilance I always found my solo speed to be quite satisfactory, although still slower than most. New Vigilance does not seem to have much effect on my speed through missions or on my number of attacks needed, however, so there is definitely some evidence in my mind that +damage is not as nice for characters with lower base damage.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Controllers are not particularly a good example of a low damage character, especially when it comes to single large targets (Illusion, Fire, and Plant controllers, in particular, are very damaging). Regen and resistance debuffs are a huge source of increased kill speed vs. AVs and Pylons.
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As to how helpful damage bonuses are to lower damage characters, I am not sure. Obviously, damage bonuses have more of an impact on people with higher base damage. I have tried to squeeze in decent +damage (15% or more) on several of my damage dealers (getting to +28% on my most aggressive and then stacking Assault on top of that for +38.5%). I am very happy with the results on those characters. I have only targeted +damage on one of my lower damage dealers. My Emp/Elec/Power has +17.5% global damage and Assault for a total of 36.3% global damage (and more when on small teams now thanks to Vigilance). Before new Vigilance I always found my solo speed to be quite satisfactory, although still slower than most. New Vigilance does not seem to have much effect on my speed through missions or on my number of attacks needed, however, so there is definitely some evidence in my mind that +damage is not as nice for characters with lower base damage. |
For a an AoE-centric Blaster with Aim, Build Up and Defiance, the comparative benefit of IO damage bonuses is pretty small, honestly. 30% sounds like a lot, but it's measured against the base value -- and a Blaster already has ~235% damage just from enhancements and full Defiance, with as much as another +100% from Build Up.
So that 30% from IOs drops to a net bonus of 12.7% w/o BU or Aim, and to a net bonus of 8.9% with Build Up. It's not nothing, certainly -- may, in fact, be the difference between a dead target and a sliver-of-life target in any given situation -- but what do you give up to get it? If the answer to that question is signifant +recharge or anywhere near soft-capped DEF, then you're probably better off ignoring +damage bonuses.
For the same reasons, the buff to Vigilance will seem to have a lesser effect on characters with lots of IO +damage bonuses.
From the rikti pylon thread, sitting at over 100 dps more than the highest scrapper:
409 Illusion/Cold/Ice Controller - Frosticus Controllers are rated as "low" damage at character creation. I know there are lots of examples of people IO'ing "low" damage characters until they are easily considered "high" damage by the standards of this game. The above is just the most blatant example I've come across. |
This is misleading imo. You can IO out a blaster so it has high defense to a single type or vector (ie s/l or ranged), but that still leaves them with gaping holes in their protection. Certainly a large gain in performance under restricted conditions, but is it as large of a gain as other AT's get that start with higher mitigation? If blasters benefit tremendously then do other AT's benefit super tremendously? |
The point is not whether IOing for defense still leaves some openess to defeat. It is whether you gain more for IOing for Defense or Offense. The answer in nearly every case is you gain the most from Defense (or Recharge). Blasters are already a very high Offense, fairly low Defense characters. They are rewarded handsomely by the IO system. |
In any given situation there is only so much damage that a character can receive per unit time. If you compare other squishy ATs the blaster has 20% more hitpoints so that puts them ahead, but the other squishies already have more layers than blasters do in general. Controllers can shut down 95% of incoming damage with their aoe controls, and depending on secondary can do things like boost regeneration, resistance or rate of incoming damage. Blasters can do this as well but not nearly as much.
So just comparing blasters to controllers,
Controler:
AOE control shuts down 95% of damage (no bosses),
IOed for Defense layer shuts down 95% of remaining incoming damage
Buff/debuff whatever number you think is appropriate.
Blaster :
Defense Layer shuts down 95% of damage
2ndary power set shuts down whatever number you think is appropriate
20% hit point advantage.
Damage output advantage for removing enemies
Whatever you do don't give blasters better defence. I relish the galss cannon concept. Give them higher damage and LOWER their hit points. Make them paper cannons.
Eh, I think keeping their hitpoints the same, but allowing another tier of attacks to be used while mez'ed would go along way to helping the blaster. allow up to the tier 3 attacks in the primary, and tier 2 in the secondary. This will give some blasters an AoE to used while mez'ed, and a hard hitting melee attack.
Granted, i think blasters are fine the way they are now, but if your gonna do something, to them, do the above.
Blasters benefit tremendously from IOs actually. Mainly because you can IO for massive Defense, but IOing for massive Damage pretty much does not work out.