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Isn't that Siren's Call, pretty much?
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Originally Posted by Void Spirit
What would it take to increase participation in PVP, and would that be a good thing?
My thought is that it could be fun if there were raid instances of an evil group vs. a good group. The instance would include PVE mobs and objectives, so that neither side could focus exclusively on PVP, with the goal that the raid would be fun for PVE builds as well as dedicated PVP builds. To reach a critical mass of participants, there could be merits or A-merits, and of course the chance for PVP drops. Fun? Achievable? Other ideas? |
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Sounds more like Base Raids to me. What happened to those, anyway?
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Isn't that Siren's Call, pretty much?
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Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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it would take the devs admiting i13 was a failure and either fixing the completely broken system of it or reverting back to pre i13 when the system made sense as well as dedicating probably about half an issue completely to bases and bringing back base raids (and hopefully making base raids relevant to the CoP trial again). |
Originally Posted by Void Spirit
What would it take to increase participation in PVP, and would that be a good thing?
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of course this won't happen
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
I would suggest rolling back to I12. That would at least get back SOME of the pvpers who left.
But that's about it.
Anything else done really wouldn't increase pvp participation past that, because this playerbase primarily cares more about pve, with very MANY outwardly despising pvp.
If you're looking for a game with huge pvp participation, look for another game.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
From an investment standpoint, PvP made up a fairly small part of the playerbase. That number has shrunk considerably so, since the PvP changes. All I'm saying is, where are they going to see the most return on money spent? --I'm not debating the merits of fixing PvP.
I never much cared for PvP, mostly because there were always two or three weird people in the zone who would shout stuff about sexual activities with my living and deceased family members. Still, there were plenty of good people I enjoyed teaming with and adding an RP perspective to the whole deal certainly upped the enjoyment factor. Since my main character was a Defender, he wasn't in PvP for the DPS--only as support.
Then they "rebalanced" PvP. Travel Suppression meant he couldn't move, Heal Decay and the change in Status Protection meant most of his buffs were useless, and Diminishing Returns meant the other half were mostly useless. I could go on, but the flavor of this thread would indicate that you already know this.
What would make increase PvP participation? Throw some interesting rewards in. Also, my Defender will never be capable of going toe-to-toe with a Brute, but at least let my character be useful to teammates again. Oh, and if you (generic you) threaten to come to my house and [redacted] my children while they sleep...I'm going to quickly lose interest. That sums up my two cents on PvP in CoX.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Having it not suck? And yes, I think that would be a good thing. A wider variety of activities will attract a wider variety of players (PvE, writing missions, base building, badge hunting, PvP, etc).
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Originally Posted by Void Spirit
What would it take to increase participation in PVP, and would that be a good thing?
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Fixing PvPers.|
Originally Posted by Void Spirit
What would it take to increase participation in PVP
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Originally Posted by Void Spirit
and would that be a good thing?
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/rimshot
Thank you, I'll be here all week.
But seriously, bolting PvP onto a game that was never designed for it was a really bad decision, and I don't see any reason why NC should invest resources in 'fixing' it for miniscule returns. I think if you're a hardcore CoX PvPer, your best bet is to be praying for CoH2 - if they build it in from the start they have at least some chance of getting it right.
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this statement is entirely community speculation that has been said so many times that people believe it to be fact. just because you don't see it active doesn't mean it isn't there. just because you don't see pvpers under atlas talking pvp like you do RPers/badgers doesn't mean they aren't there. the majority of the pvpers are doing wut? pvping and up until recently (thanks for fixing the character copy tool devs) the high end pvpers did it on test where virtually no one would see them unless they knew to look there. then when the idea of a small player base (which in actuality was the same size as any other sub-community in game until i13, not to mention all the money NC was getting from alot of pvper's having multiple accounts) was actually made true by when it did drive off a large majority of the playerbase, people thought that the current community (which is abysmmal) has always been this size. |
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
From an investment standpoint, PvP made up a fairly small part of the playerbase. That number has shrunk considerably so, since the PvP changes.
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
What would make increase PvP participation? Throw some interesting rewards in. Also, my Defender will never be capable of going toe-to-toe with a Brute, but at least let my character be useful to teammates again. Oh, and if you (generic you) threaten to come to my house and [redacted] my children while they sleep...I'm going to quickly lose interest. That sums up my two cents on PvP in CoX.
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it's pvp, you're *going* to have QQers, but this game is much better because it comes with a nice ignore feature that very few other games have and is, quite frankly, underused.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Is it community speculation if I only played with and fought against the same dozen or so people every time?
All I can do is take what you're saying and respond with, "Then perhaps the Virtue PvP community was abnormally small, with regard to the much larger PvP contingents on neighboring servers." But I'm not so sure about that.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Fixing the PVPers would go a long way to increasing PVP.
Getting them to stop whining about I13 would probably help as well. It's done get over it. Much like ED and GDN. Not going to change by whining every chance you get people.
I was never a PvPer, so could someone explain to me, in a nutshell, how I13 broke PvP?
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
Base raids were incredibly fun to me and were just the sort of instanced PvP you are describing.
On very rare ocassions, there have been glitches where villains were placed into hero missions (or vice-versa) and they were able to fight each other.
I think the best PvP raid type mission would be a safeguard/mayhem. The villains have to rob the bank and get away, eliminating all obstacles in their way, while the heroes attempt to stop them.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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Two words: Arena Architect.
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Base raids were incredibly fun to me and were just the sort of instanced PvP you are describing.
On very rare ocassions, there have been glitches where villains were placed into hero missions (or vice-versa) and they were able to fight each other. I think the best PvP raid type mission would be a safeguard/mayhem. The villains have to rob the bank and get away, eliminating all obstacles in their way, while the heroes attempt to stop them. |
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Ex, before she left, cited the pvp community as rougly 10% at i11 beta so its not hard to argue that between, lets say i5 and i11, the community fluctuated between 20-10%. personal experience doesn't equate to fact. |
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Is it community speculation if I only played with and fought against the same dozen or so people every time?
All I can do is take what you're saying and respond with, "Then perhaps the Virtue PvP community was abnormally small, with regard to the much larger PvP contingents on neighboring servers." But I'm not so sure about that. |
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| I was never a PvPer, so could someone explain to me, in a nutshell, how I13 broke PvP? |
basically in a nutshell it changed the system to where it made literally no sense to anyone, and then has continued to be completely disregarded by the devs even after the promise they made (see sig). they changed a system to something no one wanted and left it that way not doing anything with it, including any type of bug fixes.
EDITED FROM BILL'S POST
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Yes, it gets a little tiresome to hear about how broken it is, I'll admit. However, like I said, there hasn't been a followup change that has made it worth it like there was for GDN/ED. There's been no word (aside from, basically, "We know it's broken and didn't bring more people in") that there's any sort of followup on the horizon. I'd say they have some right to complain. The part of the game they loved was drastically altered in ways that make it "not fun."
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Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Originally Posted by Havoc_X
Fixing the PVPers would go a long way to increasing PVP.
Getting them to stop whining about I13 would probably help as well. It's done get over it. Much like ED and GDN. Not going to change by whining every chance you get people. |
Well, here's the difference. With ED and GDN, it was a step towards something better (the skills system, though that got scrapped and replaced with Inventions.) The I13 PVP changes, while well intentioned, haven't led to a followup PVP improvement. It was supposed to be a first step - it hasn't been followed up on. And we've *had* a staffing increase since.
As far as "Fix PVPers?" Get over yourself. Yes, there are some jerks in PVP. Yes, the competition leads to some smack talk. Do the same thing you do in Atlas broadcast - stick the irritating ones on ignore. The real loudmouths can't tend to back it up - they tend to get beaten down repeatedly when they finally have to put their money where their mouth is. And y'know what else? There are also complete jerks who never PVP, so don't pin that on "PVPers."
Yes, it gets a little tiresome to hear about how broken it is, I'll admit. However, like I said, there hasn't been a followup change that has made it worth it like there was for GDN/ED. There's been no word (aside from, basically, "We know it's broken and didn't bring more people in") that there's any sort of followup on the horizon. I'd say they have some right to complain. The part of the game they loved was drastically altered in ways that make it "not fun."
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And your basis for assuming that Ex Libris' number was at the lower bound?|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
Ex, before she left, cited the pvp community as rougly 10% at i11 beta so its not hard to argue that between, lets say i5 and i11, the community fluctuated between 20-10%. personal experience doesn't equate to fact.
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It seems it would be just as easy to argue that the community fluctuated between 5-10%.
It's a meaningless number anyway, though, because we don't know what she defined as 'community'.
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all true, but its just a source to give an idea of what the community was like (atleast how the devs perceived how large/small the community was) and that it wasn't as low as alot of people think. take it as you will.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
And your basis for assuming that Ex Libris' number was at the lower bound?
It seems it would be just as easy to argue that the community fluctuated between 5-10%. It's a meaningless number anyway, though, because we don't know what she defined as 'community'. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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No not even close. The zones are a complete waste of time for recruiting new PvPrs. What he is talking about is more like Team Fortress, Quake, or other games. Nearly all MMOs with PvP include them. By far the most common is capture the flag.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Isn't that Siren's Call, pretty much?
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the concept is that people register/sign up similar to the arenas. but there is a specific goal, specific points, and in general you get cool rewards. Here's how Runescape does it. You get tickets you can redeem for costumes. WoW has the battlegrounds. Everyone gets zoned in at once, there are specifically fixed team sizes so the matches are fair, and there is a specific start and end point.
By contrast, CoX zones are where new players wander in alone, fight some NPCs, and get ganked by a mob of 3+ veterans who proceed to mock them. Then the new player wanders back out and never goes back. There is no fair team, no specific starting point, no time limit, no purpose and in general no fun.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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That's actually not required but it would really help a lot. What is required is to make the arenas intuitive, have a functional queue that supports pug team arena matches, and to hide the PVP zones until after people have a certain level of familiarity with the system.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
it would take the devs admiting i13 was a failure and either fixing the completely broken system of it or reverting back to pre i13 when the system made sense as well as dedicating probably about half an issue completely to bases and bringing back base raids (and hopefully making base raids relevant to the CoP trial again).
of course this won't happen |
If CoX had a fun pvp minigame even with the weird mechanics of i13, people would still play. The zones and the current arena will NEVER allow a stable much less growing PvP player base because both of them by their inherent nature discourage the ignorant. Even if CoX had a PvP system that was so elegant and bug free that it made all of us weep with joy, I posit that the nature of zones and the current state of the arena mean that it would be a complete failure.
By contrast, a fun minigame with borked pvp mechanics could be a huge success.
Of course both would be ideal.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Not sure about overall participation, but I know what might get *me* into a PVP zone to actually PVP. Player organized events. I recall a few that basically said "Hey everyone show up in X zone at 7." I had a blast at those, and with 40+ folks in there going at it, it seemed very reasonable that I was gonna die from time to time.|
Originally Posted by Void Spirit
What would it take to increase participation in PVP, and would that be a good thing?
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In addition it actually felt more like an actual fight to me with the constantly shifting circumstances and odds. Which unfortunately isn't a feeling *I* happen to get from arena matches.Other than that... I go into PVP zones only for badges, temp powers, or missions. If someone happens to attack me I let them kill me (I'm worth points towards a badge) and then zone out until later.
It's not how many times you get knocked down that count. It's how many times you get up.
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not really. the main problem would still be there and that is that there is no introduction to pvp. a new player wondering in to a minigame, zone, arena whatever will still get pissed off once they get hit with DR and realize that their soft capped toon now only has 13% defense. the simple fact that the pve and pvp mechanics are completely different and it doesn't tell *ANYONE EVER* is enough to discourage new players (its their own fault for getting discouraged by the QQ). |
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
That's actually not required but it would really help a lot. What is required is to make the arenas intuitive, have a functional queue that supports pug team arena matches, and to hide the PVP zones until after people have a certain level of familiarity with the system.
If CoX had a fun pvp minigame even with the weird mechanics of i13, people would still play. The zones and the current arena will NEVER allow a stable much less growing PvP player base because both of them by their inherent nature discourage the ignorant. Even if CoX had a PvP system that was so elegant and bug free that it made all of us weep with joy, I posit that the nature of zones and the current state of the arena mean that it would be a complete failure. By contrast, a fun minigame with borked pvp mechanics could be a huge success. |
if they want to implement anything new to pvp or pvp related, they've got to fix the mechanics first if they either want it to be successful or to be accepted within the current player base.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Has anyone ever come out with a spreadsheet or other tool that shows what the different PvP DR/HD/TS numbers are for any given PvE number?
I remember early on Arcanaville had come out with a formula that made my head spin. But the basics, as I understood them, were that each attribute had its own ED-like curve and the further to the right you moved down the curve, the more you took a hit. Some attributes had a softer, more forgiving curve but most of them had a fairly severe curve.
I know that Mids tried to plug in those formulas but I hear from several pros that it isn't very reliable. Some numbers are right and others are wrong. Is there a reliable source for these numbers?
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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In general, I've found that if they can have fun the first time out, even if it is confusing and they lose or don't contribute as much, they will come back.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
not really. the main problem would still be there and that is that there is no introduction to pvp. a new player wondering in to a minigame, zone, arena whatever will still get pissed off once they get hit with DR and realize that their soft capped toon now only has 13% defense. the simple fact that the pve and pvp mechanics are completely different and it doesn't tell *ANYONE EVER* is enough to discourage new players (its their own fault for getting discouraged by the QQ).
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To borrow WoW. in PvE and PvP significantly different mechanics apply, complete with gear bonuses that don't do anything for PvE being necessary for PvP (May have changed since I stopped playing but was true for a long time). New players got slaughtered because they had no crit protection because it wasn't relevant for PvE and you could only get gear with it by doing PvP. It was literally impossible to be prepared for PvP until after you played. Still, the fact that you always were put on a team with other people, and there were team goals instead of individual goals, meant that you could have fun running around and stomping on people. You didn't get gang r@#ed over and over without a fair chance to do it back thanks to your teammates. And, after a few rounds, even if your team lost, you had enough rewards to start gearing up.
There is NOTHING in the current i13 PvP mechanics that would prevent this. IF they implemented a PvP minigame with mandatory teams, a short timer and reasonable rewards, people would have fun. Sure my /SR would be squishy, but I'd be with three or four or ten people, some of whom would know what they're doing. And when you're in a team, you can ask questions. You can try things out. You can laugh at the newb on the other team who is learning the hard way the same as you. And you are guaranteed to have people help you through the hard bit.
Yes, fixing the mechanics is ideal. But fixing the experience is more important.
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| if they want to implement anything new to pvp or pvp related, they've got to fix the mechanics first if they either want it to be successful or to be accepted within the current player base. |
Those of us who PvP, even casually like myself, are sticking it out with the current mechanics. Adding a new opportunity and environment will not cause anyone* to quit. Worst case scenario they will keep doing what they're doing right now.
*obviously there will be at least one example of nerdrage who insists that this is the last straw and they're quitting forever. Again. Until next week when they come back.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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what you're describing here isn't changing mechanics. you're basically just describing pvp in any MMO. yea, you're going to have to slot and prepare for different things but its still the same system when you go in between pve and pvp. im not really up to date on WoW mechanics but from what i've seen from watching my friends. if you have, say 500 armor stat, then you have a 500 armor state where ever you go. and if my arrow shot does 1000 damage (excluding armor and all of that) then it does 1000 damage every where. this is NOT AT ALL how coh mechanics work in that every power does different damage in pve and pvp and each buff/debuff has a different stat in pvp and pve. builds will always change in pvp, thats pvp, but stuff should work the same in both arenas. |
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
In general, I've found that if they can have fun the first time out, even if it is confusing and they lose or don't contribute as much, they will come back.
To borrow WoW. in PvE and PvP significantly different mechanics apply, complete with gear bonuses that don't do anything for PvE being necessary for PvP (May have changed since I stopped playing but was true for a long time). New players got slaughtered because they had no crit protection because it wasn't relevant for PvE and you could only get gear with it by doing PvP. It was literally impossible to be prepared for PvP until after you played. Still, the fact that you always were put on a team with other people, and there were team goals instead of individual goals, meant that you could have fun running around and stomping on people. You didn't get gang r@#ed over and over without a fair chance to do it back thanks to your teammates. And, after a few rounds, even if your team lost, you had enough rewards to start gearing up. |
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
There is NOTHING in the current i13 PvP mechanics that would prevent this. IF they implemented a PvP minigame with mandatory teams, a short timer and reasonable rewards, people would have fun. Sure my /SR would be squishy, but I'd be with three or four or ten people, some of whom would know what they're doing. And when you're in a team, you can ask questions. You can try things out. You can laugh at the newb on the other team who is learning the hard way the same as you. And you are guaranteed to have people help you through the hard bit.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Yes, fixing the mechanics is ideal. But fixing the experience is more important.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
The existing player base is irrelevant to discussions of increasing popularity. If 100% of the existing player base loved it and thought it was perfect but no on new joined, you have failed to increase the player base. If 100% of the existing players leave and double their number start you have succeeded in increasing the player base. Now, again, ideally you want both the existing players to stay and new people to join. But if we are discussing increasing the population, acceptance by the current players only matters if more current leave than new join.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Those of us who PvP, even casually like myself, are sticking it out with the current mechanics. Adding a new opportunity and environment will not cause anyone* to quit. Worst case scenario they will keep doing what they're doing right now.
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Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
What would it take to increase participation in PVP, and would that be a good thing?
My thought is that it could be fun if there were raid instances of an evil group vs. a good group. The instance would include PVE mobs and objectives, so that neither side could focus exclusively on PVP, with the goal that the raid would be fun for PVE builds as well as dedicated PVP builds. To reach a critical mass of participants, there could be merits or A-merits, and of course the chance for PVP drops.
Fun? Achievable? Other ideas?