How will the new inherent fitness pool be for Khelds?

Basically in i19 the Fitness pool will be inherent and available from level 2. So you will get 3 new power choices between 6 - 20 which is pretty amazing. But we won't be getting anymore slots, but this would seem to be a benefit in forms right? Since currently in Squid/Dwarf form fitness is not applied. Does this mean that this will be applied for all forms and not just human?

What are your thoughts on this?

the forms don't benefit from all inherents, until not to long ago the kheldian inherent didn't work in forms for example. And as they don't get fitness right now I doubt they will get it in the future. If you play human while leveling this will free up a few extra powers at low levels which is nice. For myself though I don't look at getting stamina until much later because I spend so much time in forms. This will let me pick up a couple of IO mules and/or a few more good with no slots powers. Leaderships for Muling and veangence is currently the way I think I will be using the extra powers.

I'm hoping we'll see this work in the forms, especially now that Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance works in forms (and the passive accolades as well). I don't think there's a reason why they shouldn't, to be honest, but we'll see.

It's a new change that could be applied to Kheldians in a way that could make them better.

So, no, it won't happen.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

Its really sad how Khelds turned out in the long run. You have a multi-form character that really gains no benefits to taking or slotting those forms. Add to that special enemies that can kill in 3 hits, no matter what enemy group your fighting, and zero mez protection
Why take the forms when they actually are weaker than your main form. Furthermore, what sense does it make not to allow passives to transfer from form to form? It makes NO SENSE. No matter what form your in IT'S STILL YOU!!!

That's one opinion, I suppose.

Many people familiar with Kheldians would argue that there is in fact great benefit to be found in taking and slotting the forms and although this is not essential to good Kheldian builds (see the several highly successful Human-Only build players in this community), it is nevertheless effective. Now that the inherent works across forms, the only passive I can see getting upset about is Fitness. Since IO Set Bonuses carry across forms, this is easily remedied, and really more of an issue for PBs in any case as Stygian Circle largely obviates the problem on Warshades once you get the hang of using it to best effect.

On my PBs I simply make good use of Conserve Energy, Fitness (for when I'm in human form, which is often to make use of the self-heals, the melee attacks and the control) and my +Recovery set bonuses. It only takes hitting human form once every two minutes to keep the Numina and Miracle unique bonuses up, which is a non-issue since I'll rarely go much more than a minute without shifting forms in a tri-form build.

As for the forms being 'weaker than your main form', that depends on your definition of 'weak' and regardless of that definition is going to be wrong. If we're talking weak in terms of damage output, then the Nova form (properly slotted) is going to be superior in the lower levels and comparable in the upper levels. If we're talking toughness/survivability, then the Dwarf form again is going to be superior in the lower levels and comparable in the upper levels.

Naturally one's toughness in Nova is less than human and one's damage output in Dwarf is less than human - but to complain about this doesn't make much sense, since the forms are clearly designed towards these niches. If you as a tri-form player find you need to be tougher, you can shift to a tougher form. If you find you need more damage, again - shift forms. Expecting all forms to be all things misses the point of having different forms.

As for the other laundry list of complaints, well... there is status protection. There's Dwarf form, and Light Form if you're playing PB. Even if there wasn't, a majority of ATs in this game seem to find the game perfectly playable without toggle status protection - so unless you play only Scrapper/Tanker/Stalker/Brutes and refuse to touch anything without such protection, you should do fine. As far as Voids/Quantums, they've been nerfed to almost laughable levels now and can be easily handled with only minor variations in tactics. Even before they were nerfed, they were a non-issue to most seasoned Kheldian players and now they're almost a joke.

Edit: And I notice he's trolling multiple Kheldian threads, so this is probably just me being taken in by a deliberately ignorant troll, but perhaps the information will help someone else.

If there ever was going to be a time that the fitness passives were to be made functional in the kheldian forms now would be the time to do it and push for it heavily.

I don't use the forms on either my level 50 warshade or my current 267th reroll of my peacebringer, but I will happily join in the chorus stating that the new inherent fitness *SHOULD* carry over to the forms.

There is precedent for this move. VEATs have an inherent that grants them slightly higher regen and recovery in much the same way that the dwarf and nova forms come with enough recovery built in to cover the cost of the toggle.

If adding inherent fitness on top of the VEAT inherent isn't a problem, then why would it be a problem for the HEAT forms?

Anyway, I would love to see Fitness transfer over to forms. I agree with the idea that "if it's fine for VEATS, it's fine for HEATS" (at least in this case). I can't see a situation that would make this game-breaking, can anyone else?

I imagine the devs aren't really considering it, though.

YES! I TOO THINK THE INHERENT FITNESS POOLS POWERS SHOULD CARRY OVER TO THE FORMS!

No, I don't hate Khelds. I merely think they were poorly implemented and could have been much better without the obvious flaws Mez, voids, and passives not carrying over.

Dechs,

Calling the lack any mez protection or mez resistance in the human form just so that the dwarf form will have meaning a "smart design" is an opinion and in my opinion not an even remotely accurate one. I'm not stating that it isn't the design, I just don't agree that it's a smart one.

I agree on voids. I consider them extra XP.

As far as the passives not carrying over, your statement in bold of "any other pool power" is false. Hasten carries over. Had you left it at pool passives don't carry over, then your statement would have been accurate.

In any case, Castle responded to my PM on the topic at hand. With his permission I share with you his response: (cuz I keep PMs private unless otherwise agreed upon)

Quote:

Yes, the forms should get full benefit from them, assuming I didn't screw something up in the process.

So... he's way ahead of us.

Oh... and this tidbit, too.

Quote:

Sure. You can also mention that the values are unchanged in the Pool > Inherent transition, so they can stop worrying about that, too.

So let it be written, so let it be done!

Way Cool with Castle's PM, Billz

With the 3 freed slots, I'll be picking up a couple Utility Powers for my Human Only PB - Most likely Glowing Touch & Quantum Flight... and *sigh* probably White Dwarf, just as a free BF and Getaway Emergency Power. Man I wished it looked different though...

Thanks Billz, and Castle!

Sometimes I love being wrong.

I have to admit... the forms just became a hell of a lot more attractive to me for both of my khels.

Late edit: I'm finding myself surprised at the lack of excitement about this. Is it because most of the forms users tend to form hop so much that you don't feel this to be as large a change as my brain is telling me it is?

This is a big deal. Personally, I think it's likely to be more dramatic for PBs than for WSs - I generally only have any sort of endurance issue on my Warshades when I'm fighting EBs or AVs and I can't use Circle to good effect. Nevertheless, it's a buff across the board for anyone who uses forms.

I wonder would it be possible to expand on this? When a kheld shifts form it loses access to most of it's powers. It is possible to click those powers then shapeshift. Would it be possible to keep some of those powers without having to form-change every time? Having access to build-up, heals, and toggles could go along way towards form specialization and stream-lining of the builds without needing a complete rework. Maybe even lessening the effectiveness of such powers in forms, without losing them completely.

Or if not those, perhaps allowing some of the pool powers to remain active such as fighting and stealth. Maybe its too much, but maybe it would draw a higher crowd of Kheld players too.

Well, click powers already carry over, but it sounds like you're asking for more powers to be available for actual triggering in the forms. I'm not opposed to allowing click powers in forms - powers such as Hasten, for instance. You can already use Accolade click powers in the forms.

As for Fighting and other toggles, I think you're starting to get towards a radical change in how Khelds play when you allow toggles into the forms, as especially for Nova form this potentially removes one of the main balancing elements (squishiness). Allowing toggles means allowing the three shield toggle powers to work in Nova and Dwarf, and that may be too far. Part of the design of this AT is trade-off, a generalist who needs to make choices as far as where to place emphasis. Too many changes in this direction works against and potentially destroys that.

Ultimately, I'm not a fan of changing something into something else so that more people will like it. I'm not against some QoL changes for Khelds, but making Khelds play more like, say, Scrappers isn't likely to make more Scrapper players play Khelds. It's still going to be a weaker Scrapper because, well, it's not a Scrapper.

That was just an example to illustrate the point. I'm not saying that you want to make Kheldians into Scrappers specifically, merely that these sorts of changes seem aimed at making Khelds more like something else rather than making them work better as what they are.

I have to agree across the board with Justaris on this. I think we all need to get some serious play testing in on this before bothering to consider any other buffs.

I'm even looking forward to the added mobility of swift and hurdle in dwarf mode, not to mention having real recovery and regen while in dwarf mode.

Think I'll be taking WD on my PB at 20 this time around.