Warehouse, office, warehouse, sewer, office, warehouse, warehouse, office, sewer

I've been playing City of Heroes for a month now and I'm pretty upset. There are parts of the game I absolutely adore, and other parts that I abhor. I've never played an MMO with so many unique and fun features coupled with some of the worst grinding ever. This is only the latest of my trials with the game - I tend to return every year or so for a couple of weeks to a month, to see what's changed, and what's remained stagnant.

Let me start off with what I enjoyed, so I may buy some time before the angry mob rips me to pieces.

I love the character creation - when I grew tired of the actual game, I retreated into the creator and made a couple dozen characters. This is actually my favorite part of the game, which is kind of worrying when you think about it, but it's still very fun. Moving around the city, exploring, badge-hunting, and "street-sweeping" are all activities I enjoyed. Travel powers are really fun and make me feel more superheroic than pretty much any other type of ability. Collecting badges is an addictive activity. As for street-sweeping, I had a lot of fun with it but it was a very inefficient way of earning XP compared to what I call "door missions".

I hate door missions so much. They are excruciatingly repetitive. I was tired of the warehouse map by the sixth time I was offered it. I'm currently approaching level 30 and I've probably been to over 50 warehouses. Same goes for the omnipresent office buildings. Even sewers and caves, which used to be a little rarer, have become commonplace. When I'm soaring through the sky over Steel Canyon, being a superhero feels like an amazing thing. When I'm clearing the 40th cut-and-paste warehouse mission, being a superhero feels like a humdrum job. No matter how urgent or dangerous my contact says the mission is, when I'm inside that warehouse for the umpteenth time, I'm just going through the motions.

Back to street-sweeping - my favorite contact missions are the ones that encourage a little bit of street-sweeping. I find the city environments, at least Hero-side and Praetoria-side, somewhat repetitive as well - some parts of Steel Canyon look exactly like Galaxy City, for instance. But at least outdoors you can go from fighting gangbangers on a rooftop, to battling thugs in a park, to defeating villains outside a factory. As I leveled I found myself having to choose between battling random enemies outdoors with no clear mission in mind, or taking repetitive door missions for the comfort of having at least a little bit of 'lore' pushing a simple story forward.

The game started taking on a really stilted feel to me - it reminded me of early 90s beat-em-up video games, where you'd walk from screen left to screen right beating up hordes of identical enemies. Another thing that frustrated me was the slow acquisition of offense abilities - this may not apply to every powerset in the game, but if it doesn't, I have not yet found a way to ascertain which powersets feature more offensive skills earlier in the game. For the first 10 levels I was basically alternating between two main attacks and brawl. It felt terribly slow and samey. All MMOs start you off with only a couple of skills, but none I've played have granted new abilities at a slower pace than City of Heroes.

I suppose the sum of my gripes with CoH can be put this way: The premise of the game, the appearance customization, and the plethora of powers lured me in. It really felt like an epic, one-of-a-kind adventure was about to begin. After the initial 'wow factor' wore off, I found myself in an utterly generic MMO that seemed to squander the promise it had shown in its opening moments. All MMORPGs feature repetition and some kind of grinding, of course, but they try their best to alleviate some of the wash-rinse-repeat feeling by incorporating varied environments and a wider selection of skills - some of which are only situationally useful, but serve to give the player more freedom and choice in gameplay situations.

At this point, six years on from the game's launch, it seems my issues with the game would more likely be addressed (if at all) with the sequel that's been rumored. Still, if Paragon Studios is planning on keeping the game alive and fixing what doesn't work so well, they would attract a lot more potential players by just adding the spice of variety to the parts of its game that lie outside shiny new Praetoria. More door-mission environments to alleviate the warehouse-office-sewer cycle, and more powers learned less slowly, so that players who have put six hours into their character have more than three offensive abilities to choose from.

I have the utmost respect for the developers of the game and the players who like CoH just fine the way it is - I merely wanted to provide the viewpoint of a new-ish player who has tried multiple times to get into the game, but finds that everything that lies beyond the exciting premise incredibly mundane.

Thanks for your time!

City of Villains is a LOT less tedious.

well, yeah, sadly this is the weakness of heavily instanced games, only so many maps and art assets exist, that said, have you played any of the big games out there where they sent you to go whomp a named big bad, a climactic event...and then after you beat him, you see the line of guys waiting for the 5-10 minutes till he re-spawns, here when you beat a big bad, he is done for you unless you help someone else with a mission its going to hurt either ways. now i actually find street sweeping still viable, some spawns have lower risk or higher reward than you find in a mission, and as a stalker, lone standing bosses are so much christmas hams waiting to be carved. but you sacrifice the mission complete bonus, but this really isnt a race, you do what you enjoy, the general consensus of the community is that they HATE kill 10 rats missions that generally comprise many other mmo's overworld stuff. So yeah, repetition does stink, this particular type of repetition is kind of unavoidable with this particular type of game. mmos have flaws. also, you are 30, have you been to an ornabegan map? or a council one? there are variations, you just have to look for hints in the mission text.

as for powers, it really is a quality/quantity thing, many mmos toss a large number of skills at you, but they all do largely the same thing, one thing that is appreciable here is that most fights with even con enemies are over in 2-3 hits, i know when i tried other games and had to deal with the flailing auto hit in between my skills i went nuts, here each power is more compartmentalized, but also more meaningful, you wont be getting smite, smite 2 and smite 3 to bloat your toolbar, you will be getting unique powers that you can further customize with slotting and invention origin enhances.

well, its unfortunate that you didnt like the game, everyone has their preferences, and hope you have better luck in the future finding a game for yours, have a good one.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

You have definitely identified one of the major weaknesses of CoH. Even the people who can overlook it and for whom it's not a deal-breaker (which includes almost everyone who plays and posts on the forums) will admit it's a weakness.

I don't want to sound dismissive, but this is not something that's likely to change any time soon. There are too many instanced missions in this game and not enough artists on the devteam to give each mission a map with unique geometry. If it bothers you that much after just one month of playing, chances are this is a game you're not going to enjoy long-term.

A few things.

First, how high have you gotten - you're mentioning "near 30." More specifically, how high have you gotten with which ATs, and how are you building them?

What do you *like* playing like? In-your-face attacks, range, support?

Are you just doing missions, or reading through the storylines? Yes, the maps are a bit repetitive, but for me at least it's a matter of "why I'm there" more than "where I am." And there is some variety - some's getting into the missions (some of the newer Praetoria maps, which you wont' see if you're at 30 unless you've started a Praetorian, and some older like the Freakylimpics last map,) some you'll need to go to task/strike forces for. (Hess, Katie, etc. - you'll *always* remember what's in the volcano, or running the Eden trial, for instance.)

Grind - This I'll pretty much always disagree with, but I think we're using a different definition. Early on (I've been playing straight since my join date over to the side,) yeah, there was at least one spot with absolutely horrible grind (37-38 to 40) where you just ran out of content and had to stay on someone else's team or street sweep for what seemed like forever. But now? Well, for me "grind" is a game like Aion, where you have to stop playing to work on farming materials, or trying to get enough gold for the next skill book, etc. That, I don't see here in COH. It's part of what keeps me here, actually.

Which ties in a way to your "none grant new abilities at a slower pace than COH." I don't get that, honestly. No, we don't have gear drop to swap out, but we get a new power every other level through level 32, extra pools opening up at 6. From 33-50, it's every third level, but you're increasing the abilities of the powers you have by adding slots and enhancements. They may not always be "fun" powers (an attack, say,) but they'll usually be helpful, or help you fill out a concept. (The Fitness pool, for Stamina, for instance.) And there are ways around getting some powers which may help out - for instance, if you don't want to wait for a travel power (or dedicate two power picks to it,) you can ignore it, pick up a jetpack recipe, get a jetpack / zero-g "jump" pack from Safeguard or Mayhem missions, or go to Grandville or the Shard to buy one, using those power picks for other things. (Alternately buying the Natural pack to get Ninja run, or using a supergroup base for the teleporters can help.) Plus, we do get *new* abilities - not like (creating a generic power here) getting Ranged Attack I, which is replaced with Ranged Attack level II (not going alongside it, but just a replacement) five levels later, then Ranged Attack III ten levels after that. We do that with enhancements, after all, and give you additional powers to go with it.

So... What are you playing, what do you like playing, and how are you building - maybe we can change your experience.

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If you like outdoor hunt missions, you won't enjoy Rogue Islands as much as Paragon City. Villain side doesn't have nearly as many of those.

The original game encouraged putting a team together and fighting large groups in outdoor, non-instanced, hazard zones. Players in the first few months did this, but rapidly gravitated to the instanced missions offered by the contacts. Except for sewer teams forming in Atlas Park as a way of rapidly leveling past the low level contacts.

By the time City of Villains was released as a separate game, there weren't enough players playing in the Hero hazard zones to justify creating new hazard zones for the Villains. So there aren't any there. Players complained about hunt missions, and having to zone to get to a door, so CoV doesn't have many missions that require you to street sweep, or change zones.

CoV also has fewer regular zones than CoH. This is because the original design expected more players, and more street fighting, so there are two regular zones for every level range except for 6-10 and 41-50. That didn't work out so well. CoV has only one zone for each level range, though some overlap.

Keep in mind that CoH/CoV is played in an urban environment. It is a repetitive environment. Most other MMO's are built around fantasy where most of the action takes place outside, and it is easier to vary the environment.

One of the great strengths of instanced-play is that those instances scale to meet the challenge of your team... but as you said, the downside can be the repetitive tilesets. They throw a few unique variations out there- the garage done like an auto shop, the carnie warehouse, etc... but they're very few & far between.

I'd encourage checking out the Architect Entertainment missions- the player-creations seem to make more use of the custom maps & outdoor instances than the dev content. Helps keep things feel more varied.

Also, I'm told you'll see more custom maps in Task Forces.. I haven't done any, but I'm told, so consider checking them out if things seem too dull.

Heck, although the police-scanner missions can be on the common repeatable tiles, you can milk a good 20-40 minutes of gameplay on the safeguard maps, with their city blocks and separate indoor areas.

Finally, if you like street sweeping, don't wait for a contact. End-of-mission rewards are nice, but you can do pretty good with the sheer steamrolling effect you can get in a good Hazard zone like Dark Astoria. Imagine up your own reason to go there and just tear the foe apart... then move on to the ruins of Eden or the industrial waste of Crey's Folly. It really does help break up the pattern a bit.

The experience of going from the new and shiny Pratoria, right into the same (admittedly, re-skinned) office map in Going Rogue, almost made me rage-quit. I'm still not over it.

This is one of the game's biggest problems.
You can somewhat overcome it by playing with Architect Entertainment or doing various unique Task Forces (Katie Hannon, Lady Grey, Statesman, Respecs, Lord Recluse, Silver Mantis...) but yeah, you do have to hold your nose a lot of the time and get to the objectives or enjoy the story.

CoH isn't about "Look what they did" as much as "Watch what I can do."

And I wouldn't trade it for the most intricate gameworld.

Hey, at least that's better than LAB LAB LAB LAB LAB LAB like some arcs in Preatoria.

I always find this amusing. Amusing because of how differently my perceptions seem to work in comparison to many other people. I find other MMOs much more grinding because no matter what level you reach the missions are always the same. 90% of them are kill this creature and bring me this many of of this body part. And the majority of them take place in the same scenery. Occasionally you may go into a cave but the majority of the time you are just running around the general area of the city whose level you currently match. And those areas are always boring landscapes with a few trees and hills. There is a reason other MMOs are all about the end game and that's because the beginning and middle part are as dull as dull can be.

It's like playing CoH with missions that consist of nothing but street hunts.
Brrrrrrrrrr.... I shiver at the mere thought.

I can't defend the interior environment- you can either let it pass or you can't. Even most custom Task Force maps aren't THAT different.

A lot of the other problems seem sort of like either you're building oddly, or you're not teaming.

"more powers learned less slowly, so that players who have put six hours into their character have more than three offensive abilities to choose from."
... are we playing the same game? We may not be- I can't judge the low-level game with fresh eyes, I've been here far too long- but an hour in, I'm level 5 or 6 even if I'm playing solo. You should have three offensive abilities if you're a scrapper, blaster, dominator, brute or [possibly] corruptor, and you should have two no matter what else you're playing. Even if you don't, you can get temporary powers- baseball bats, sledgehammers, pistols, hand grenades- to mix it up a little. I've got a guy who represents a casino, who uses the St. Louis Slammer WAY more than is necessary or appropriate. The company refused to sponsor him...

A lot of the variety,in my opinion, comes from team makeup- unlike any other MMO, a fight with a different team has a VERY different feel. Got a force field defender on the team? you're only limited by how fast you can do damage. Got a Kin? You're faster, stronger, hit harder and sometimes fall down dead unexpectedly. Got a Storm? NOTHING IS NORMAL. (Could be better, could be worse, won't be the same.) Four scrappers? three controllers? No melee? Different, different, different. They all WORK, or should work, but they don't play the same.

Teams level faster, fight more interestingly, and provide the social experience [such as it is.]

The new Tip missions have somewhat more variety as well, although there aren't an enormous number of them. Not the environments, as much as the goals, plot, dialogue, etc.

This may never be the game for you; it's not the game for everyone. But some of your problems are solvable.

The problem is that on one hand we have these massive intricately designed zones that no-one ever explores in depth, and on the other hand we have boring maps we recycle over and over again.

The solution is simple and painfully obvious:

Create more "instanced outdoor maps" using cordoned-off areas/parts from existing underutilized zones. (Kings Row would be ideal.) Villain zones could also be used.

I know this is currently done to an extent. But the ratio of instanced office/warehouses/sewersutdoor maps is too far towards the former.

Once these new outdoor maps have been created you could sex them up with trigger points, cut scenes, alignment options, and inter-mission dialogue/mini-mission tree.

If the devs are reading this I can put together a proposal.

In other news, has anyone else ragequit another game when they insisted that you couldn't walk up a 45 degree slope?

Perfectly valid points, and Im glad you encountered the reasonable crowd before the thread got bit by a troll or two. Every forum has one or two, no two ways about it

It's true, though. Personally, Im happy so long as I- Oh look a mob BURNITBURNITBUUURN!
*ahem* Y'get my drift. Even so, I would personally love to overhaul the Office maps. I mean, has anyone ever seen an office like that? Really? Or a warehouse like that? Or, the worst offender; cargo ship hold, aka The Tardis.

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.