New n00bs

How often do you fight AVs, though? Maybe it's just me, but I almost never do, not alone, not on a team. Most of the time people want to pull is out of large open rooms where multiple spawns will aggro if you just walk in. Since we sometimes need to pull two, maybe three spawns before it's reasonably safe to walk in, pulling them one by one can take 15 minutes.

Most teams on most difficulties can fight one spawn at a time, so I almost never see the need to pull spawns one by one, unless it's an exotic spawn with something big in it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'm of the camp that believes a big part of the problem people are having is that they aren't used to playing the game at low pre-stamina levels. Due to Praetoria being 1-20 they are forced to learn/relearn how to play the game. They can't simply go to P_I/Grandville or an AE building and get powerleveled past the low level content.

I can see where Bill is coming from with the example of not pulling with Fireball, I've been on plenty of teams where someone does it and it ends in a wipe due to the amount that get pulled vs what the team can handle. That being said, I personally do pull with Fireball most of the time on my Fire/Fire Blaster, but there are also times where I will do a single target pull. I also sometimes do multiple single target pulls within the same group to get specific mobs put of there before grabbing the rest.

It's really a case by case basis.

I do hope that's really not the case, but I do know people who do it. I still prefer to level up my characters the basic way, and I have a heck of a lot of them that are pre-stamina. Heck, I don't take stamina on about 50% of my characters as it is.

Anyone else feel like throwing this team together and recording it? :P

Ok so you're blaming team composition and powerset choice when the real problems are, 1: two nearly useless characters and one that may be useless, I don't know, depends on how the buffless troller uses his primary, and 2: setting your difficulty too high for a PuG with no SOs.

I could come up with a team that could run through at +4 with ease AND includes a petless MM and a Blapper or two.

I see AV, I'm the point man and I'm a bit squishy:

"Anyone have a few purples for me? I'm going to get their attention, you guys kill the minions, then we'll focus on the AV."

I see AV, I'm not the point man and the point man is a bit squishy:

"Here, point man, have some purples. Go get their attention, the rest of us will kill the minions, then focus on the AV."

If you don't use inspirations for tough fights then you're playing with one hand tied behind your back, and you have no one to blame for a teamwipe but yourself. There is NOTHING more annoying than someone dying, trying to hand them an awaken and their tray is full. The second most annoying thing is the dead guy asking for a purple or green to combine into an awaken.

That's what I say, but the slider stops @ +4. :(

I get what Sam and Hex are saying. I am, however, going by what "pull" tends to mean - you don't *want* that entire group for some reason, typically to isolate something.

I've done the other "pull" too - it's part of why I tend to take Taunt. I mention tanking purple Carnies for a full team in the late 30s or so. Spawns would occasionally end up too close together - taunt, grab a corner to break LOS, get them as they come in.

Earlier in the game, though, pull does tend toward the single target/small group.

See my Guides and Tutorials

/bets Zaion's idea was "OMG, knockback, is teh ebil, nobody can do this!"

Yeah, I see this as being a fun team. I don't see what the problem would be. Baddies flying everywhere, Kins and Khelds playing Council Ping-Pong, no END worries, Regen boosted very nicely, beautiful Recharge, damage being increased by the -res of the Sonic and the +damage of Siphon Power, Leadership from the Ill who has some room in the build from having no ally shields, confused enemies helping out then standing there smiling as you beat on them... what's the issue again?

Oh, yeah. Zaion can't find competent teammates, apparently.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Pulling with an AoE will pull one group that is close to another, allowing you to take one out without having to deal with the other. Where as if you jump in, a second group, if close, can/will see you and will attack.

It has it's purposes.

In my case, it's usually because I die when I rush in, but survive when I "pull." There are, in fact, three distinct situations where I will always AoE-pull.

1. Time Bomb. I had an AR/Dev Blaster who would lay down a patch of Caltrops. Set a Time Bomb in the middle, then corner pull as many enemies as he could into the bomb. I used to try pulling with Sniper Rifle, but invariably that meant only one or two enemies coming in, wasting the bomb. Instead, I opted to pull with M30 Grenade, which always got the entire spawn.

2. There are several "rooms of death" throughout the game, especially in blue labs where so many rooms are big and open. There's the titular Room of Death which consists of a ramp leading to a platform with another platform above circling it. Going into the centre platform of that room aggroes the two spawns on it, and puts you within aggro range of at least three other spawns on the upper platform. I've seen more teams wipe on that room than any other.

Another such room is the large empty room with weird machines in the middle and exits on all four sides. If you approach from one particular side, there are spawns on either side of the door, causing you to aggro two spawns at once. If you're fighting Nemesis, going into that room could put you under fire from no less than four Snipers, which I have experienced myself. Pulling out of that room, spawn by spawn, ensures much greater safety. Then there's the room which has a "secret" passage on the side through a red forcefield that has you climbing up weird machines. This room you enter through a narrow left-right corridor, which deposits you within aggro range of at least two spawns, sometimes three if the third one spawned that time.

Some outdoor missions will do this, too. Their spawns will be very close together. Not quite close enough to aggro on you at the same time if you pull, but more than close enough to aggro on you if you rush in to fight. And because outdoor spawns tend to be rather more spread out than indoor ones, this is more often a problem.

3. I play a lot of Blasters, and I don't like fighting at the extreme long range that some NPCs can fight at. If I stand out of "multiple aggro range" and fire at a spawn from that distance, they scatter and stretch between me and the spawn point. And, at least as far as my experience goes, there is nothing worse for a solo Blaster to fight than enemies all over the place. Ideally, I want to corner-pull an entire spawn so they bunch up, then eat Fireball + Fire Breath + Rain of Fire. This helps me a lot.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'm not quite sure I understand. Why wouldn't you want the second group to attack?

It takes a long time to get back from the hospital in most cases.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

KB didn't even cross my mind as I came up with that. I forgot human khelds were basically energy blasters (and I've never seen anyone with repel). That would actually reduce the difficulty a bit from what I was thinking of.

I actually like KB a lot, and don't even mind it while tanking as long as people don't expect me to chase the enemies they just knocked out of my agro aura.

Which are the two nearly useless characters? Most teams in that level range run at +2, or try to. I don't like it, especially when I'm sidekicked and everything is purple to me, but they do it. If we have a good team setup though it's easy anyway, even if fights last a really long time occasionally.

You're squishy, or you're on a team and there are squishies and you don't want to go over the aggro cap.

Offenders are generally pretty useless if they ignore their primary rather than just take one that helps them kill faster, and incidentally helps the rest of the team kill faster. Skipping Transfusion is just....whaaaa? Skipping ID is meh, especially at 20 when there isn't that much mez being thrown around. Although if they had Siphon Power and Speed Boost they wouldn't be completely useless.

Who are these mystical "most teams" that run at +2? Are those the same people that used to run on Invincible despite multiple teamwipes because "it's awesome XP?" If fights last a really long time it isn't awesome XP, and you need to turn it down or find a smarter team.

Wasn't sure if you meant the khelds, since two kin offenders even without heals could be boosting team damage by 100%.

Pugs on Freedom. And yes.

Find another team isn't always an option, especially at 4-7am EST. Plus the exp probably is better even with the wipes, though I'd honestly prefer +0 even if it's easy.

"Offenders" implies more than "doesn't heal" (since "uses heals" isn't what defines Defenders), but rather implies Defenders who abandon and do not use their primary, choosing instead to focus on their secondary.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

In much the same way you'd think a Blapper would be a Blaster who also uses his melee attacks a lot, but apparently not. A Blapper is a Blaster who does not engage in ranged combat. And what few "Offenders" I've seen have usually done so to play Blasters with a powerset Blasters don't get access to, such as Dark Blast.

*edit*
And a Defender who "embraces," i.e. "uses" his secondary is pretty much a Defender, as that's how Defenders are built and intended to play. There are, of course, the so-called "pure Defenders" who only ever use their primary and then supplement it with the Medicine pool and Leadership toggles, but I hardly feel they should be the norm the AT title should refer to.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Psst, inspirations.

Um, no... all my Defenders I consider Offenders, because... well, this..

^^

Instead of standing back and letting everyone else fight and "saving endurance" for when the primary needs to be fired off, whatever that primary is, my Offenders are in there, using their secondary to help kill and debuff the baddies IN ADDITION to using my primaries liberally where appropriate.

I also have an Emp offender. If you have not seen someone play an Empath to their full abilities, but only those "healors" who are in the back rocking the aura, then I have pity.

And yes, I have been yelled at by people for daring to use my attacks when people are at full health with regen and recovery auras on, fort on the whole team, and AB on a blaster or another offender, and people lose their MINDS that I'm wasting End that could be saved in case they need a heal. This is on my Emp, of course - no one complains that Fluffy and I trigger Twilight Grasp off quite a bit as part of a debuff cycle

People who play their Defenders just for the primaries are just as stupid as those who play just for the secondaries. Defenders are probably the most powerful AT in the game. It's just a really lucky thing that most people don't play them well enough to get them a nerf!

Yes.

An offender is a Defender that focuses on offense and doing damage. They will use a primary that maximizes their own damage or combat effectiveness with little or no regard to team support abilities. It's only coincidence that some of those powers also effect team mates with either AoE buffs or enemy debuffs.

I'm not getting into the term 'offender' debate, but what you just described is how I play every defender I make(which isn't many).