Guardian Cathedral of Pain Trials

I was kinda expecting public opinion on this to be rather sour. I also doubt I'll get enough turnout to run it. What's the point of running it redside anyways if folks are just gonna move their badger heroes over to run it? Anyhow, if you guys really don't want me to run it this way, I'm gonna bow out. I don't believe this raid can be PUG'd, at least not yet. I'll just do what I've always done: let someone else figure it out and beg to let them squeeze my badger in. I think the CoP related badges are a long-term write-off for me now.

So anyhow, if people want to help me try to figure this thing out, show up with an AT I've requested. If not enough ppl show up, I'm not running any more.

Semper Fi

Unfortunately, I have only one villain even in range and I play him once or twice a year and I don't want to bring a toon that I don't have full confidence in playing for anything (especially this trial). Never got around to playing CoV full-time or even part-time, I was more of a seasonal villain!

As for the discussion that has occurred here today between a few members of the forum, if I may give my two cents:

First, as a participant of several MoLGTF runs with Capa, she had sacrificed on many MoLGTF runs for others to get that badge (myself included). I will always be thankful for her sacrifice in helping others get that badge (again, myself included). This does not imply that anyone else has not sacrificed for the benefit of others, it's easy to say that the vast majority of the veteran players of this (and other) servers have sacrificed to help other players earn badges, etc. over the years.

Since Alpha is running the trial, he would set forth what he would need, etc.
We have done several attempts with less than perfect team composition and way too many appearances by the Storm aspect. I believe Alpha has a right to choose how and what he wants for the trial. Seeing that we have had no success (at least in the runs that I have been able to participate in), I can see why Alpha wants to try something different and more tailored to see if that team composition might work.

While some may not agree with this, it is in the end Alpha's choice. While I do concur with some that the parameters may be a bit too narrow and you might not be able to get 24 players, I hope I am wrong and that your idea and team composition works and that you succeed in this trial on Friday. Alpha's explanation and his reasoning is alright with me (in my opinion).

I hope you don't stop doing these Alpha, but again that is your choice. While we have not had success, the trials have been fun and challenging and playing with a bunch of great players on this server makes the failures not be so bad.

From reading what I have read, it seems like a big misunderstanding and I hope that things can be worked out so that other folks who have not participated in this trial can enjoy the opportunity to do so.

Good luck on Friday, Alpha!!

Alpha himself is forgoing the badge on his main badger, as well as Botley to figure out a working strategy for this encounter, before dragging their badgers along for the ride. Look at the LRSF when it first came out. How tight a team compisition was needed to beat that? Yeah...looks like this is another one of the dev's super insane OP'd encounter that needs a team tighter than a nun to pull off until too many people point out the unfairness and they finally wind up fixing it.

*hint hint*

Ok I was really trying not to spam your thread again - and feel free to PM with with "shut up" but ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpha-One I also doubt I'll get enough turnout to run it.

Quote:

What's the point of running it redside anyways if folks are just gonna move their badger heroes over to run it?

Redside is more quiet than blue and I'm all for prioritize red but why not let ex-heroes in if there aren't enough villains? Plus I still prefer a tank to a brute.

Quote:

I don't believe this raid can be PUG'd

I agree. If there was a core membership who ran it a lot, a few PuG members (say one or two a team) would go a long way to helping the coordination issues.

Everyone knows setting up Raids is a pain; this one in particular. I applaud your efforts. The tactics you developed on the Obelisks and the Cathedral (prior to the AV) are working. The only bit that isn't is the AV and frankly if it's the Storm aspect that isn't your fault or the fault of the team set up; it's a bad design of the TF.

As far as I can see no team make up is capable of taking the Storm. People who do this in 15 minutes with brawl are quitting that aspect.

QUESTION: Do you know how many debuffers you NEED to get max debuff? To hit the -regen cap?

If I read this right you had seven debuffers and hit the cap?. So then you need a minimum of 250 damage/sec to over come the remainder and preferably much more?

I have half an idea I'd like to offer you for consideration but not quite there yet.

What about saying "OK every Saturday for the next six weeks we will be running red CoP" (or blue weeks 1-3 and red 4-6) and get sign ups done. Then people could be certain the run will happen, change sides if required and if they can't get their badger on run one and two at least they know that their spot is saved on run three. That would go a long way to ensuring participation with a semi-specific team make-up. If you read within the lines of my posts last night you'll see part of the complaint was there is no guarantee there'll be another run where I CAN bring my badger.

Quote:

If not enough ppl show up, I'm not running any more.

If not enough people show up, it's most likely down to not having the specific ATs you requested.

Also a specified AT doesn't guarantee a capable player of that AT or an AT that is capable of running this TF. I have an Emp on Virtue. I tried to keep a team alive on a Sara Moore without a tank and two scrappers playing tag-team-tank; I wasn't horrible bad but I really wouldn't want to Emp this TF and I wouldn't Emp a Mo run either. I have the AT and I might break her out for a run but not on something like this. She isn't up to it and neither am I on that AT. Would you rather a player admitted that and bowed out or showed up regardless and waste everyone's time by being rubbish?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsAlphaOne a team tighter than a nun

Don't think your efforts aren't appreciated; they are. This is frustrating and if you decide never to utter the words CoP again, it would be perfectly understandable, although very regrettable.

Again thank you for the efforts you have put in over the past few weeks.

EDIT:
I did get both my red and blue bases raid-capable if you wanted to do a round-robin SG/VG due to storm-aspect restart.

EDIT 2:
Ok here's something I knocked up while the servers were down.
From the post I linked to above:

-2000% regen seems to be a cap
Still regening 200 hp/sec

DPS/Pylon thread from the scrapper forums to give an idea of DPS.


BROAD GROUPS

Apologies to AT/powerset I've missed; not intentional.


Buff: Emp/Pain/FF
Damage/Buff: Kin
Buff/Debuff: Rad/Thermal/Cold/Sonic
Debuff: Dark/Storm/Traps
Damage: Brutes/scrappers/stalkers/blasters
Damage/buff: veats
Damage soaks: Tanks (Ok SOME brutes but ideally 2 brutes on a team if that's the case. Remember if the damage soak goes down odds are the rest of the team will. That's a regroup which we can't affort at the Aspect.)


(I don't have high level experience of HEATS)
Am I reading Traps right; One poison trap is -1000% regen?! Because wow one of them is TWO Howling Twilights! In which case a debuff spot could go to damage!


TEAM MAKE UP

This is very close to a previous attempt. I shamelessly cribbed it. Aim is to get the bases covered while giving maximum opportunities to participate.

Ideally each member will cover more than one spot. An Ill/Sonic troller covers buff/debuff and damage. A psy/mental blaster could be damage and debuff.


TEAM ONE

1) Damage soak with self heal - Rularuu bait.
2) Damage soak support/buffer with rez:
3) Kin buffer
4) Buff/Debuff
5) Debuffer:
6) Damage:
7) Damage:
8) Damage:


TEAM TWO

1) Damage soak:
2) Buff/Debuffer:
3) Kin Buffer:
4) Debuffer:
5) Damage:
6) Damage:
7) Damage:
8) Damage:


TEAM THREE

1) Damage Soak:
2) Buff/Debuffer:
3) Kin Buffer:
4) Debuffer:
5) Damage:
6) Damage:
7) Damage:
8) Damage:


TACTICS

You already sorted that out. What you did for the Obelisks works. What you did for inside the Cubes worked. Where it's falling down is Rularuu.

Again I'm going to suggest if it's Storm reset. See who in team 1 2 and 3 would join a new SG temporarily to join a reset. (I would with any char except my main.)

Because of the reduced number of buffers I wonder if this would work:
Each buffer buffs their own team.
Then each buffer targets the tank of the other teams. That tank cycles through their team mates while the buffers buff.
If it works each member should have as many ST buffs as there are buffers.

Bit painful and someone will get missed but just a thought.

Then summon pets (inc MM) and temps. Fire aura buffs.

Kick at it as you've already organized.

Capa summed up most of my feelings on this.

I do appreciate all of your hard work and dedication to organizing this herd of cats. While I do want to get the badges before no one will do this anymore, I understand that we need to find a good method of reliably cracking this nut.

I have made a very sizeable investment, as I mentioned, into both my blueside and redside bases for the round robin we discussed.

I have the communication resources in the Ravenwolf Manor Vent Server.

I maintain my desire to beat this beast. I will step back a bit and let you guys crack a few nuts.

In the meantime, I still stand by my offer. Friday Night attempts allow me to participate. I work rotating 12-18 hour shifts saturday evening through monday mornings. This actually allows me to extend my offer even further. To help in communications, I offer the RMVS for saturday and sunday attempts as well.

See you on friday nights when I fit the mold.

I have a widow, ice/thermal or dark/kin..

I think I may have spoken too harshly when I said if not enough people show up I won't run anymore. I'm just getting kinda frustrated because I feel like the old i7 LRSF when I couldn't get on a team because I was playing a stinking MM, and I DON'T want to do that to others. But right now just to figure out how to win I'm resorting to min/maxing the teams. Back in the old RSF days that was one stone brute and 7 corrs. If a min/maxed team can do it, maybe if I replace one slot per team with a random badger we can still do it. If a min/maxed team can't, then all my tactical planning is for naught. And I want badgers to get the badge, and I also want people who can run it so *I* can get the badge on my badger.

My VG and Coalition mates are pulling through. Most of the VEAT and brute slots are full. It actually pains me that all of RIMC's badgers are currently blueside because two of them are a rad/therm and a fire/rad corr. They're both bringing Widows instead.

It takes 4 debuffers to bring Rularuu down to the regen floor. Yes PGT does double duty, but it does require a very squishy toon get in melee range of Rularuu, not an optimal situation IMO. Kins are great and I love them, and can seriously enhance team DPS thru SB, Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift. They just bring very little debuffs to the raid, and require folks (including the kin themself) be in melee range of Rularuu to get the most benefits. Again not an ideal situation. Ntm Fulcrum Shift is better applied in large mob situations, rather than vs a single AV.

Not sure why you dislike brutes so much Capa :P Yes, a resistance based brute takes 3 times the dmg a similar tank would take (85% res cap vs 95%). However the extra HP and defense brought by a cold corr, along with several VEATs worth of buffs, can turn a single brute into monster. So IMO, a brute can do a tank's job AND bring way more DPS against Rularuu.

Anyhow if anyone has a Corr that can fill a slot for the raid please sign up.

Semper Fi

If you are still going to attempt the Red CoP tonight, I have a widow I can contribute. I'd like to help out get more information on how to beat Rularuu.

Had to scrub tonight's run. We didn't have enough people and I ran out of time. We did come close though, we mustered 9 VEATs, 6 Corrs and 4 Brutes. I think we'll have to stick to blueside just to get the numbers. I do want to point out that no doms, stalkers or MMs asked to join, though I got a few requests from heroes who went red who wanted to join up. I also guess that means I can't be too picky, lesson learned

"Sticking to blue to get the numbers" is a fallacy. Yes, it is more quiet red side but the lack of numbers were down to the narrow specifications you laid down; very specific ATs which excluded not only a fair few red ATs but also all heroes who had gone red.

Why would a doms, stalker or MM ask to join when you had already specifically excluded them?

Faulty logic there.

Open a red side run to ex heroes and other ATs. You'd get enough.

Shadow is currently a Vigilante, but 1 morality mish away from Villain if we go red.

So either side will work for me. See ya'll next friday night.

Alpha, have you checked out Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial yet? I found it to be a pretty interesting read.

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Biggest Troll on the forums? I'll give you a hint:

I've been testing my tanks to see which ones handle the cube spawns best. My results show that while my stone tank can handle it, my dark tank is superior when not overwhelmed by defense debuffs. This mainly came about by using Cloak of Fear. With it up, I could survive indefinitely against spawns that were killing my willpower and stone tanks. So trying Dark tanks might be a reasonable tactic for better managing cube spawns, they have better resistances than non granite tanks and Dark Regen + Cloak of Fear.

Also I think Assault (60-80% + damage if a full team uses it) would help teams deal more dps, along with getting at least 1-2 sonic blasts to improve -res. Maneuvers may help cut down or slow down team wipes as it also gives a buffer for the -def of the Eyeballs.

Survival against the spawns comes down to handling Eyeballs ASAP. The -def will be the thing that kills tanks and teams alike. Most toons with good psi defense or resistance dont have alot of defense debuff resistances.

Based on my experiences in the trial, I think it is important to have each team's tank remain under each team's cube. This ensures that the new spawns stay tightly packed for quick killing, so that you can get back to beating on the aspect asap (which is also useful on the cubes protecting the obelisks). It would be good to suggest setting the tanker on your team as your waypoint, that can help make heading back to your team's cube faster.

Having everyone just spam any long recharge -regen is also probably to be avoided. A few people should be trying to make sure they use something just before the shield goes back up (Howling Twilgiht, LR, and EM Pulse are nice long lasting ones). Obviously you want to hit several -regen powers at the start of the fight and then throughout, but some people should be designated to make sure they have something at about the 40 second mark, so you can get a few -regen powers off just before the shield goes back up.

When first entering the Cathedral, it is important to mention staying close to the wall in order to avoid aggro. It is also important for team leaders to move to their team's cube asap (which means they should know which is theirs before the trial even starts), as the rest of the team is likely to be looking for where the leader is going.

If something goes wrong and the Aspect is back at full health anyway, regrouping should be called quickly. If the Aspect is at full health anyway, there is no reason to try to salvage a bad situation. Have everyone exit the cathedral quickly, let the spawns reset, and then start over from a calmer situation. Obviously, if the Aspect's health is down a good deal and something goes wrong, you will want to try to salvage without a retreat. However, when trying to do that, an eye should be kept on the Aspects health. If it gets back up to full or near full and the room is still in bad shape, call the regroup.

Based on what I have seen, a solid but not exceptional group can take the Aspect down in 4 or 5 respawns, which should take about 5 to 8 minutes. As long as you have more time than that still on the clock, there is no reason to feel rushed. Regrouping will save time more often than not, so it should be used often, until more people are comfortable with the trial.

/Farnsworth "Good news everyone!" /e Farnsworth

As of yesterday's patch Warburg nukes have been disabled in the Cathedral of Pain trial, so I no longer have any reason to go in that zone. Also, according to Castle, the merit reward for completing it is now 21 instead of 10, and Rularuu should no longer be able to attack thru his shield. This should remove the requirement for a dedicated main tank and tank support and allow the teams to be more balanced and damage/debuff oriented.

I'll leave it to Vix to announce when the next run is, I'll be there to help. Though I don't like having to use temp powers to win this, I think the Envenomed Dagger idea is a good one, we can keep Rularuu's regen floored thru the duration of his shield downtime using them and save the big debuffs for about 5 seconds before he reshields. The challenge at that point is to clear the respawns as quickly as possible, with luck before the debuffs wear out. Using this tactic a rinse-repeat strategy is viable. It's important that people not spam them too much, the -regen last 10 seconds, so you should only need to launch 3-4 per downtime. If you spam them as soon as they recharge, there's the risk of running out before we kill the AV.

Without Envenomed Daggers we'd have to be debuff heavy, at least 8 to 12 corrs/fenders/trollers so that half can hit at the start of the fight and the other half can hit before reshield.