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This post makes me sad to have Ice Armour as my favourite powerset.|
Originally Posted by TheMullet
I remember my ice tank. To these people who think tank=attack, they are going think I'm really boring.
I didn't get a second attack until level 22. But putting all my abilities into taunting and being indestructable was really fun! I could just hop into a mob and read a book! They couldn't do anything to me. This allowed me one time to hold 2 mobs of Lt Freakshow. It was horrifying and my team kept dying, get back up, and then died again. Meanwhile.... I'm at my max taunt, surrounded by Lts and they can't do a thing to me! Extremely rewarding experience! Tanking is fun, for me at least. But I can see how just standing in mob doing very little for hours can be rather boring to some. |
Not only does Ice/ have insane taunt auras, if you're paying attention to the mobs, teammates shouldn't even get hit on the off-chance they somehow manage to out-aggro you, all you need to do is target the -slow'd mobs running towards the thief, hit Taunt and go back to attack rotations. And by second attack power, I'm assuming you mean icicles, as generally 20/22 powers will either be Stamina or Icicles.
You should at least have a cone attack, and taunt by 22, because I hate to say it, because without using Gauntlet, and attempting to have your only goal to be out-living the rest of your team, at best you fail as a tank, at worst you're a glorified scrapper with no attacks.
I feel tanking is a mentality, though I have seen some people that can play every archtype extremely well. Mostly I play tanks and brutes and when I tank I'm in first and out last. When I play a brute I'm in tied for first and out second to last.
Sometimes as a Brute me and the tank will play leapfrog between spawns depending on the tank's survivability and my own. guess having a close group of people I usually play with and the fact I rarely PUG has me a bit spoiled.
Either way, don't come down to hard on timid or shy tanks. Instead get to know them and try and mentor them or direct them here or to attend a Tanker tuesday event since it hits every server at some point and any level tank is welcome.
Good tanking is a artform that reflects both playstyle and understanding the synergies between powersets, thats why some builds are slightly better then others but there is really no bad combo of powers imho.
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Originally Posted by deadboy_champion
Actually I learned how to tank from the Ring on a Tanker Tuesday. Now granted I'll never be as good as the Ring, Myr, Dinah, Kiloton, Hard Target, Ace, Bert the Viking, U-mann or several of the other good seasoned tanks on Champion it was certainly worth it - often the team leads will answer questions, give build advice, show tricks (facing the team so they dont get AoE damage), etc. It was definitely a good learning experience.
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No way, a DB sighting, lord of all Blasters, epic.
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I agree, Tanks allow you to play aggressively even recklessly to a certain extant while still maintaining a better then average survival rate, which is why game experience and knowing the weaknesses and strengths of various factions lends itself to a Tanker not only playing the role of a damage soaking distraction but also a charge ahead team tempo setter. |
Originally Posted by DJ_Onslaught
I feel tanking is a mentality, though I have seen some people that can play every archtype extremely well. Mostly I play tanks and brutes and when I tank I'm in first and out last.
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That mindset usually spreads across to every AT, as a lot of good Tank players will say they attempt to tank while trolling or blasting or whatever.
In my personal experience, I've met several Tankers who hesitated to take aggro. However, ALL of those Tankers, without exception, were built badly, typically having few or no shields and especially no status protection.
No wonder THOSE guys don't want to go into the maelstrom.
If you meet players like that, some of them respond to polite, helpful suggestions and will learn more and improve their tanking experience (and maybe even their skills). I recommend approaching them via /tells so as not to embarrass them in front of the team. I also usualy ask if they already know this, since they could be running a concept build intentionally.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I think my tank falls into both of those catagories...
A low level (Teens) WP/DM Tanker.
I don't have alpha mitigation so I wait for the High defence scrapper to make the alpha miss and then proceed to take the aggro away.
I don't have taunt because I'm low enough level to not be wanted on alot of teams so I need to solo, damage and defencive powers > Taunt at the moment.
Yes I know that a tank is supposed to take aggro, and yes I know tanks do not great damage compared to brutes and scrappers but do other people realise that tanks take a while to be able to take hits? and that not everyone has a million and one veteran attacks to use at low levels? Some people I team with know that tanks at low level need help to mitigate damage (Such as heals) and other people think that just because their purpled out level 50 Scrapper can solo +x/x8 that a tanker at any level should be able to do more.
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As soon as you have status protection you're a benefit to teammates that do not; scrappers can't extend that kind of a benefit as easily. The lower the level, the less of a distinction there is between scrapper and tanker damage, so you'll never be 'too young' of a tanker to be useful compared to scrappers. |
Originally Posted by Kiwi
Yes I know that a tank is supposed to take aggro, and yes I know tanks do not great damage compared to brutes and scrappers but do other people realise that tanks take a while to be able to take hits?
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I consider taunt, at low levels, not to be something that allows me to control the attacks of the entire enemy spawn but rather something that allows me to keep the attention of problematic enemies regardless of how slow I'm moving or how heavily my accuracy is reduced. Keeping spectrals off of a blaster is just as good as giving those blasters immunity to tohit debuffs.
For me a tank is not a slightly tougher scrapper or brute, but rather a superb controller who has the personal mitigation to survive the damage intended to fell an entire team.
This means that aggro is my first and main focus.
However I see no reason for any AT in this game to ignore their personal damage production.
IMHO a tank can and should defeat foes on their own. If you are struggling to defeat spawns solo you need to take another look at your build, you probably sacrificed to much for a level of survivability you will seldom if ever need.
Of course others play tanks for entirely different reasons, my opinions are merely that.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
One thing I have trouble understanding when people skip attacks is what they are replacing those power picks with. My own Tankers take pretty much all their defensive powers -- including things like the Invulnerability passives -- and Tough and Weave...and Stamina...and still have room for 5-7 attacks. I've made some very tough Tankers without giving up damage.
Months ago, a Brute sent a /tell to one of my Invulnerability Tankers during an ITF that had gone wrong: "HOW are you STILL ALIVE???" That same Tanker, without respeccing, is the one I mentioned who did 601 damage with one punch while soloing (no help from Fulcrum Shift or any external buffs or debuffs). And this is feasible for anyone...I'm not claiming to be a genius.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I'm often wondering the same. Currently I have two tankers, of which one has eight and the other has all nine powers from his primary. They both have about six attacks, plus taunt, plus whatever utility they might get from their primary.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
One thing I have trouble understanding when people skip attacks is what they are replacing those power picks with. My own Tankers take pretty much all their defensive powers -- including things like the Invulnerability passives -- and Tough and Weave...and Stamina...and still have room for 5-7 attacks. I've made some very tough Tankers without giving up damage.
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I build my tanks first and foremost to survive, then to damage. I find it's actually quite difficult (and boring!) to keep aggro without using attacks, so I'm picking one or two AoEs and enough attacks to sustain a ST attack chain. Blame the scrapper mentality in me, but I find this works much better than "pure tanks".
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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Yes, indeedy.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
Fireball > Taunt
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fireball>taunt...nah get quicksand heh
"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)
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Acey has it.
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Originally Posted by Acemace
What's there to enlighten, you teamed with some novice Tankers.
You can have the same situation with bad Controllers, or bad Defenders, or bad Brutes over eager to hold fury at the expense of team wipes, etc, etc. |
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This as well. Bear in mind, also, that we are learning a whole new dynamic with regards to how ATs work together on a team. Yes, we've had co-op TFs for a while now and a co-op zone, but there are a LOT of people who have VERY limited experience playing with several combinations. Hell, we BARELY agree on team roles amongst blue-side ATs, let alone, now throwing Brutes, MMs, etc. into the mix.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
For the first part, I'm going to give the Tanker the benefit of the doubt and say that, as Aett noted up above, the level might be a key issue...
Enhancements: Most Tankers in their teens are likely using DOs and probably can't afford too many of those without a sugar daddy or market pvp. These don't give much in the way of effective bonuses, so the character may be pretty weak.Assuming that maybe the player was some of the issue, you might want to think about... Once Bitten, Twice Shy: If you've ever gone on a faceplant cycle with an early-level tank, you don't want to do it again. Especially if you're used to seeing fully-developed Tankers laughing in the face of, well, everything. You may delete the toon outright. You may hang back and let others do the dirty work. Either way, it may take a bit for them to get on track. |
I believe and hope that it will get better but I fear that too many of us already "KNOW how to play" and will thus be terribly resistant to learning anything new.
I wouldn't mind Fireball, Taunt and Quicksand all on one tanker if it weren't for concepts. Taunt would help where the quicksand won't on its own and visa versa. Fireball will help where taunt would take too long.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
To be honest, I consider taunt to be largely useless. Punching them in the face has the exact same effect.
You don't even need to control EVERYTHING onto you, just the most threatening mobs. That minion and/or Lieutenant probably isn't going to kill that Controller, Blaster, or Defender.
At any rate, tanks can punch the crap out of stuff and still do their job thanks to Gauntlet. Maybe my Inv/DM spoiled me, but I've never had more than just a few minions run off, even after the blaster unloaded everything he had on the group.
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I use it on my WP/WM Tank because her build is too tight for a good AOE (epic) ranged attack (and none fit the concept even if I really wanted). My current Elect/SS that I am levelling up will be getting Fireball so won't need Taunt.
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Originally Posted by Kidou
To be honest, I consider taunt to be largely useless. Punching them in the face has the exact same effect.
You don't even need to control EVERYTHING onto you, just the most threatening mobs. That minion and/or Lieutenant probably isn't going to kill that Controller, Blaster, or Defender. At any rate, tanks can punch the crap out of stuff and still do their job thanks to Gauntlet. Maybe my Inv/DM spoiled me, but I've never had more than just a few minions run off, even after the blaster unloaded everything he had on the group. |
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I was probably the first person to tank the inner circle and Lord Recluse included unsupported by defenders and controllers, okay, the entire STF because taunt isn't largely useless. Basically way back when they first come out. Some people would regard a few minions running off as unacceptable. I would regard losing aggro to scrappers as unacceptable although I don't tank for them. Brutes I can accept. Scrappers I don't mind getting aggro but I'd rather it took confront to get it from a Tanker.
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Originally Posted by Kidou
To be honest, I consider taunt to be largely useless. Punching them in the face has the exact same effect.
You don't even need to control EVERYTHING onto you, just the most threatening mobs. That minion and/or Lieutenant probably isn't going to kill that Controller, Blaster, or Defender. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I'm very guilty of that, hence why I just bother to play tanks and such. |
Originally Posted by Acemace
I agree, Tanks allow you to play aggressively even recklessly to a certain extant while still maintaining a better then average survival rate, which is why game experience and knowing the weaknesses and strengths of various factions lends itself to a Tanker not only playing the role of a damage soaking distraction but also a charge ahead team tempo setter.
That mindset usually spreads across to every AT, as a lot of good Tank players will say they attempt to tank while trolling or blasting or whatever. |
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Yah I enjoy the tanker when I have this itching to lead the charge. My main reason was to bring something to GR with all the new teams and new players around. |
Originally Posted by DJ_Onslaught
I'm very guilty of that, hence why I just bother to play tanks and such.
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I really do enjoy playing a Tanker like a "tank". Sure I suck solo. Sure I can not solo farm. I am built for team and it works great.
My only regret is going Mace. I would have preferred a warhammer being shieldless. It just doesn't look right. Bah...oh well.
I only find it strange people say tanks don't soak damage at low level..might be more accurate to say certain Primaries don't do well till later. On Electric armor I slotted it up asap... adding in the aura with taunt slotted in it. I was holding agro with no problems to my survival. My only problem was not having anti mezz yet. =\
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You're missing out on the bonuses of Taunt. First off, it's very useful in encounters with AVs. Even with my aura going and attacking full bore, I have had AVs and GMs turn away from my Fire/Fire tank to go after someone else. Taunt prevents that from happening. |
Originally Posted by Kidou
To be honest, I consider taunt to be largely useless. Punching them in the face has the exact same effect.
You don't even need to control EVERYTHING onto you, just the most threatening mobs. That minion and/or Lieutenant probably isn't going to kill that Controller, Blaster, or Defender. At any rate, tanks can punch the crap out of stuff and still do their job thanks to Gauntlet. Maybe my Inv/DM spoiled me, but I've never had more than just a few minions run off, even after the blaster unloaded everything he had on the group. |
It's also useful for when your to-hit plummets and you can't land a punch. There are times where this happens and it's very useful to have (my Kheldian in Dwarf form was missing Taunt when he was trying to tank Nosferatu for his team).
Plus, Taunt is ranged and it has a -range component. You don't have to run to the mob, and those mobs that like to shoot at you from range will usually run up to you once you throw Taunt at them. I miss having Taunt when fighting those mobs on my Brutes or Scrappers.
I don't really think it's worth fitting in to your build until your 20s or 30s (especially if you are using your aura and Gauntlet well, among other Tanker tactics), but it IS worth picking up at some point, even if you're going to mostly solo.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I have to agree Taunt is just a tool that is worth having if you tank. You don't have to slot it. Auto-hits. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
You're missing out on the bonuses of Taunt. First off, it's very useful in encounters with AVs. Even with my aura going and attacking full bore, I have had AVs and GMs turn away from my Fire/Fire tank to go after someone else. Taunt prevents that from happening.
It's also useful for when your to-hit plummets and you can't land a punch. There are times where this happens and it's very useful to have (my Kheldian in Dwarf form was missing Taunt when he was trying to tank Nosferatu for his team). Plus, Taunt is ranged and it has a -range component. You don't have to run to the mob, and those mobs that like to shoot at you from range will usually run up to you once you throw Taunt at them. I miss having Taunt when fighting those mobs on my Brutes or Scrappers. I don't really think it's worth fitting in to your build until your 20s or 30s (especially if you are using your aura and Gauntlet well, among other Tanker tactics), but it IS worth picking up at some point, even if you're going to mostly solo. |
As he stated you force ranged to come to you. It's very nice, fast recharge, low end, and effective skill.
now what is this Gauntlet you speak of? Seriously I don't know.
Gauntlet is the Tank Inherant. It provides a taunt AoE effect for every attack a tank does. It's not considered to be as strong as the Taunt power, but it can still be effective as a taunt.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Gauntlet is the Tank Inherant. It provides a taunt AoE effect for every attack a tank does. It's not considered to be as strong as the Taunt power, but it can still be effective as a taunt.
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Do all taunts have the -Range in them? Or is it only Tankers' Taunt? Serious question...
You can have the same situation with bad Controllers, or bad Defenders, or bad Brutes over eager to hold fury at the expense of team wipes, etc, etc.
My advice if you want to experience seasoned Tank vets and an overall fun time, come to the next Tanker Tuesday (now on it's 72nd consecutive month) on Champion, 1st Tuesday of Sept, 8pmCDT/9pmEDT @ the Kings Row IP gate.
--countdown till JB enters this post..
@Deadboy