If you take all 6 SR defense granting powers and slot them with 3 defense SOs, you sit at around 31% defense to melee, range and aoe.
If you take no other defense granting powers and don't have any SetIO bonuses giving you more defense, the 45% defense from elude will be incredibly beneficial. Well... kind of.
For 95% of the game only 14% of elude's defense will be beneficial and you'll have to deal with the end crash. While it's up, though, you'll also get very nice recovery and run speed boosts.
If, however, you take weave and combat jumping and stick the Steadfast +3% to all defense IO in tough, get a bit more from other SetIO bonuses and are sitting at 45% defense to all without elude, there is no reason to take elude.
In PvE.
Especially since you can get massive recovery and run speed boosts from other SetIO bonuses.
In PvP, however, it's not a bad idea to go with a max recharge build which includes elude because of all the tohit buffs flying around in there.
I haven't had elude in my build for a very long time. And I do ok in PvP.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Bill, would combat jumping be needed? I only ask because I REALLY don't want another toggle running with the SR set and tough, ya know?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
If you take all 6 SR defense granting powers and slot them with 3 defense SOs, you sit at around 31% defense to melee, range and aoe.
If you take no other defense granting powers and don't have any SetIO bonuses giving you more defense, the 45% defense from elude will be incredibly beneficial. Well... kind of. For 95% of the game only 14% of elude's defense will be beneficial and you'll have to deal with the end crash. While it's up, though, you'll also get very nice recovery and run speed boosts. If, however, you take weave and combat jumping and stick the Steadfast +3% to all defense IO in tough, get a bit more from other SetIO bonuses and are sitting at 45% defense to all without elude, there is no reason to take elude. In PvE. Especially since you can get massive recovery and run speed boosts from other SetIO bonuses. In PvP, however, it's not a bad idea to go with a max recharge build which includes elude because of all the tohit buffs flying around in there. I haven't had elude in my build for a very long time. And I do ok in PvP. |
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depends on how many Defense IO's you can afford to buy.
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Originally Posted by MT_Head
Bill, would combat jumping be needed? I only ask because I REALLY don't want another toggle running with the SR set and tough, ya know?
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Pretty much this.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
depends on how many Defense IO's you can afford to buy.
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You don't *need* CJ if you can find the defense it provides from elsewhere. Some folks don't do fighting pool or combat jumping and go with leadership and aid self while getting all the rest of the defense they need from IO bonuses.
Be well, people of CoH.
If you are soft-capped will Elude help if you run into PVE baddies with "To Hit" Buffs?
And if it helps, how much? How much +To Hit would you be effectively soft-capped to if you had 90 or 115 defense.
Soft cap and skip it.
I wouldn't use Elude even on baddies with to hit buffs. I don't want to deal with the crash. I'll take a purple if I really need it. I won't really need it.
If you had 90 defense, you'd be soft capped to +45% to hit. If you had 115 defense, you'd be soft capped to +70% to hit.
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The minimum you can reduce tohit to, before accuracy buffs, is 5%. So if you have 90% defense and your attacker has base 50% chance to hit you, you are good up to 45% tohit buffs (which would make the attacker have a net tohit of 95% before your defense, and then 5% counting defense).|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
If you are soft-capped will Elude help if you run into PVE baddies with "To Hit" Buffs?
And if it helps, how much? How much +To Hit would you be effectively soft-capped to if you had 90 or 115 defense. |
Pets and turrets have base 75% chance tohit still, not 50%. So one area Elude could help even a soft-capped character besides PvP is if they find themselves facing off against a lot of those things. If you're in a hyperdense Malta mission, for example, and a bunch of engineers start dropping turrets everywhere, they will seem to pass right through your "softcapped" 45% defense with their 75% base tohit.
However, if you're facing something with a *lot* of tohit buffage, like those DE enimators, then not even Elude will save you unless its heavily slotted. Those generate a +100% tohit buff, which is going to cut right through softcapped defenses, softcap+Elude, and even leak a little through softcap+slotted Elude. They used to make a mess out of perma-elude back in the day.
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Don't worry too much about that. To Hit is pretty rare in PVE. I'd guesstimate if you are at 45% to all three positional defenses you can very well solo 95% of game content. Just watch out for the floating eyeballs in firebase Zulu and a couple other enemies and you'll be set.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
If you are soft-capped will Elude help if you run into PVE baddies with "To Hit" Buffs?
And if it helps, how much? How much +To Hit would you be effectively soft-capped to if you had 90 or 115 defense. |
One note, MT: Combat Jumping only costs 0.06 end/sec - it's a negligible cost in almost all circumstances, and it activates in no time, too. Elude's a lot harder on your Endurance than CJ will ever be.
sounds like Elude has gotten long in the tooth and should get rebalanced.
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Besides Rularuu watchers, DE quartz eminators have a +100% tohit buff. Turrets and pets have essentially a +25% tohit buff. On the red side tohit buffs are a little more common: some villains have Build Up. Some have tactics (the guards in the bank missions in particular).|
Originally Posted by VeryBadDay
Don't worry too much about that. To Hit is pretty rare in PVE. I'd guesstimate if you are at 45% to all three positional defenses you can very well solo 95% of game content. Just watch out for the floating eyeballs in firebase Zulu and a couple other enemies and you'll be set.
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The most common place you'll see tohit buffs in the higher end game blue side are the vengeance buffs from Nemesis LTs. You don't want to be running around the docks in PI and kill the two Nemesis LTs that flank the Warhulk before taking him on, because your softcapped defense just went bye-bye (+30% tohit per buff if I remember correctly).
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Its a better emergency power for players that haven't spent time and money soft-capping their SR builds. If all you have is 30%-35% defense, pushing all the way to the soft cap is still pretty sweet for three minutes.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
sounds like Elude has gotten long in the tooth and should get rebalanced.
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Doesn't look very competitive against something like "One with Shield", "Overload", "Hibernate"
Any of The other defense set teir 9's would help you more than Elude.
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Not really. Elude is stronger than OTWS. Overload is stronger than Elude except for positional Psi. Hibernate isn't in the same class as either. If we are specifically talking about scrappers, Elude is also stronger than Unstoppable, Power Surge, and Strength of Will (its a little hazier for Unstop and PS for Tankers and Brutes due to their 90% resistance caps).|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Doesn't look very competitive against something like "One with Shield", "Overload", "Hibernate"
Any of The other defense set teir 9's would help you more than Elude. |
Elude is actually one of the strongest tier 9s out there. Its main failing these days is for players already building very high performance SR builds with the invention system, its power can become redundant. Keep in mind that Elude supplants toggles and passives, so for a long time (before I6 and the passive resistances were added to SR) Elude was going up against "tier 9s" that were really multiple powers. In the old days, Elude was going up against perma-unstoppable plus invincibility and Instant Healing plus Dull Pain, and competing favorably. Today, Elude doesn't compete against Strength of Will, it competes against the entire Willpower set, and while it probably underperforms the entire Willpower set, that's not because it underperforms Strength of Will itself. Its underperforming SoW plus RTTC + Fast Healing + Mind Over Body plus everything else in the set.
Capped defenses alone is not the best thing you can get anymore in this game. But its one of the strongest single things you can get in this game, before you stack other things in and around it. Sure, if I could trade Elude for Strength of Will on my soft capped SR scrapper, I probably would because I am, in fact softcapped which limits the benefit of Elude. But most SR scrappers are not soft capped, and I wouldn't trade out Elude from the SR set for another tier 9 which would be weaker for most of the other SR players out there.
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In the previous post I was assuming "soft-capped" defense prior to the tier 9 comparison. Since that is what most /SR people would go for. And the advice was given earlier in the thread.
Taking that into account, in those cases as described above, unless you are fighting something with "+ to-hit" All of those other powers would help you more.
Why would you say most /SRs are not soft-capped? You can soft-cap /SR with a very minimal investment.
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Because the majority of the player base has no idea what "softcap" even means.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Why would you say most /SRs are not soft-capped? You can soft-cap /SR with a very minimal investment.
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Arcanaville hit on one of the key points:|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Doesn't look very competitive against something like "One with Shield", "Overload", "Hibernate"
Any of The other defense set teir 9's would help you more than Elude. |
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| But most SR scrappers are not soft capped, and I wouldn't trade out Elude from the SR set for another tier 9 which would be weaker for most of the other SR players out there. |
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| sounds like Elude has gotten long in the tooth and should get rebalanced. |
The basic concept boils down to being able to predict what the minimum amount of protection any single player will have in any single situation. The ED caps give the developers some hard-figures on what to base each players potential capabilities at any given level.
Yes, there are some power-sets that just don't make sense against SO's. The pre-I18 Fiery Aura defense set and Martial Arts melee sets for example. The current Dark-Armor set for another example.
For the vast number of players with only SO's in their builds, Elude is still a valuable part of their defensive sets. From the perspective of SO's, Elude is not long in the tooth, and no it does not need to be rebalanced.
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Interesting |
Originally Posted by Gaidin
Because the majority of the player base has no idea what "softcap" even means.
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I am not so sure I agree. The 45% defense advice gets thrown around in the game quite a bit, even in PUGs
If you are playing /SR over a certain level is a common question for people to ask you if you are "soft-capped yet"?
Maybe you all underestimate how many readers you have.
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Interesting statement. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
One of the key design problems is that the developers cannot balance the entire game or a single power-set against a semi-common IO buff build.
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I think it would be more accurate to say the developers in COH's case "choose not to"
Surely they "could" balance the game around the gear (IOs) available in the game. Nearly every other MMO and RPG type game does after all.
I am not necessarily arguing they should but they definitely could.
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You probably don't need it, but I strongly suggest taking it. It's endurance cost is next to nothing, it gives a set bonusish worth of defense, you can stick a Kismet ToHit IO and/or Luck of the Gambler Recharge in there, and it is fantastic for moving around in combat.|
Originally Posted by MT_Head
Bill, would combat jumping be needed? I only ask because I REALLY don't want another toggle running with the SR set and tough, ya know?
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All in all, I feel Combat Jumping is a fantastic power that gives you a lot of bang for your buck.
Elude is great prior to soft-cap, and pre-IO's was a key SR power even in the late game. So much so that for a while back in the days of perma-Elude the skew was in the other direction: once you had perma-Elude you didnt need your other toggle DEFs (ah yes, good times).
I haven't gotten around to getting rid of it yet on my MA/SR, mostly due to nostalgia and also because there wasn't one other power that I felt I really needed instead. I rarely use it. Really, they only solid value I get out of it is on the rare occasion my blue bar has actually gotten down to unacceptable levels, just for the extra +recovery.
So...to be clear...take it at 38, slot it well, use it for fun and profit while you level, soft-cap, and keep it around like a faithful old dog that can't hunt any more or get rid of it as you prefer.
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As I understand it they do also take buffs into consideration, so since a good team can boost you a lot more than any IO build they do indirectly balance IOs too. For instance, I seem to recall Castle stating that the Brute damage cap and fury changes were due to them being too strong when heavily buffed... they were also too strong when heavily IOed but it was the insane damage they did when paired with a couple of /Kins that really attracted his attention. Buffs are more common and more powerful than IOs, so balancing around them pretty much handles IO performance by default.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Interesting statement.
I think it would be more accurate to say the developers in COH's case "choose not to" Surely they "could" balance the game around the gear (IOs) available in the game. Nearly every other MMO and RPG type game does after all. I am not necessarily arguing they should but they definitely could. |
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Yes, the devs choose not to balance the game around a build most players don't have.|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Interesting statement.
I think it would be more accurate to say the developers in COH's case "choose not to" |
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Surely they "could" balance the game around the gear (IOs) available in the game. Nearly every other MMO and RPG type game does after all. I am not necessarily arguing they should but they definitely could. |
As to:
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I am not so sure I agree. The 45% defense advice gets thrown around in the game quite a bit, even in PUGs If you are playing /SR over a certain level is a common question for people to ask you if you are "soft-capped yet"? Maybe you all underestimate how many readers you have. |
I still get questions from people who think the +56% in their slotting means they have 56% defense.
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And look at how much even here in the forums people fail to understand how defense debuff resistance matters, too.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Oh, I'm very sure the average player doesn't fully understand how defense works, much less what softcapping involves or how it works. Right now I think the 45% number is being thrown around much like the 2:1 rule was in the past, with equally deleterious consequences.
I still get questions from people who think the +56% in their slotting means they have 56% defense. |
My experience is that MMO player populations believe the most alarming and nonsensical things despite all attempts to educate them.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I wanna know what the pros think!