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Probably for the same reason PuG type team mates benefit from my Fire/Fire blaster's strengths and yet I pay when I don't benefit because they fail to use their strengths.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Edit: Why PuG type team mates should pay for a Willpower's other strengths that much I don't know.
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Not all sets are all things to all people. I can respect someone not wanting to play a WP tanker because the aura is weak at taunting. But that does not mean I think it should be changed.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Throw out the word need. Replace it with thinking about fun. Some people are obviously avoiding WP because of the lack of aggro control. Lacking aggro control wouldn't be fun.
Losing aggro to someone else for some tankers is not on. Not on at all. It's chicken.
Some past pugs might of otherwise stayed together had a WP tanker been able to establish good aggro control, because the tanker hadn't they disbanded. WP tankers aggro control ability is susceptible to -travel speed, -tohit, -rechg, mobs resisting taunt duration to name but four, because on top of them what other players do, to put mobs out at a distance for even a minimal bit of timecan lead to problems. Now other tankers have the same problems to certain extents just not so much with the mobs being put out at a distance for a minimal bit of time.
Someone could hit a npc, I could taunt aura them then move 9ft away for another reason, as time is off the essence, that npc could then go straight back to thinking about who hit them. It don't leave much time for recoveries when you consider that npc*15. What's the point in playing a tanker if at any second or two you might as well not even been trying to do your job as the very thing your trying to prevent happens anyway?
Sure there are ways around anything and players should learn to team together but not everybody complies to doing that. The kick button maybe there for the leader but not the Tanker. Games should be fun, not about being made completely redundant by others in no time.
I used to pick up taunt at 4 but now its 10. So problems for me are way less, problems for others that post here are also less but that don't mean there isn't a prob to look at because elsewhere on the forums remarks about it are getting made. That's why I brought it up.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The one problem with your otherwise logical argument is that fun is subjective.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Throw out the word need. Replace it with thinking about fun. Some people are obviously avoiding WP because of the lack of aggro control. Lacking aggro control wouldn't be fun.
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I have several Willpower Tankers, and I find the fact that aggro can be hard to hold on to fun. I see it as a challenge.
I'm constantly having to work to hold aggro. On my other Tankers I simply have to walk into the room and everyone is glued to my backside with virtually no effort on my part. Frankly I find that a bit boring.
Count me as definitely in favor of Willpower's aura remaining exactly as is.
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Note that some people may avoid Ice because of its look or how it plays, same for Fiery Aura. Same for any set. Some people like Willpower and play it, and it's hardly an unbalanced set. You can have powers without characteristics, pros, or cons, but then they'd all be the same and boring.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Throw out the word need. Replace it with thinking about fun. Some people are obviously avoiding WP because of the lack of aggro control. Lacking aggro control wouldn't be fun.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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QFE (Quoted for Effect)|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
There seems to be a misconception here as to how MAG effects taunts. It doesn't amplify threat or anything of the sort, it's only used as an on/off switch, just like CC. For example, bosses have MAG3 protection against holds, so a single MAG3 hold will have no effect. Two of them, however, will stack to MAG6, which surpasses their protection and stops them dead in their tracks.
That's exactly how taunt MAG works, except instead of only having 1-2 powers that apply taunt effects, Tankers have 8-9 (BU doesn't count) in their secondaries alone - AoEs even due to Gauntlet. (Not to mention Taunt, which can be enhanced to last for ~80 seconds.) The likelyhood of a Tanker being unable to surpass the taunt protection of a mob is incredibly small. If a Tanker does run into a mob that they can't bypass their protection, the chances they're not able to do it by MAG1 is infinitesimal. I'd argue that MAG is one of the least important stats for taunts, especially for Tankers. ----- CMA, for your example of the BS/SD Scrapper doesn't surprise me one bit. AAO is one of the strongest auras in the game due to having 8 different debuffs on it, not to mention the damage buff it yields. Also, unless the Tanker Taunts, I'd argue that every Tanker will lose aggro to an equal Invuln/Shield Scrapper or any Brute. The taunt durations of their auras are identical while their damage output is much higher. (In the case of Scrapper, they deal more damage than their lower threat mod of 3 reduces it. ie: ScrapperThreatMod (3) * ScrapperDmgMod (1.21) > TankerThreatMod (4) * TankerDmgMod (0.8).) What it boils down to is that if you want aggro on your Tanker, and (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers or Brutes are on your team, you have to Taunt. That makes the weaker aura a fairly moot point, to me and my playstyle. A longer duration on RttC would make it more user friendly with non-taunting ATs, but would not solve the issue of (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers and Brutes stealing aggro off you. Considering how debuffs affect threat computation, I wouldn't support any boost to RttC that would remove the debuff from it. |
Agreed. The only Aura improvement for a RTTC on a tank that I could get behind is simply increasing its duration a bit. So...say 5 seconds base and MAG 3. Still weaker than other auras by a measurable margin, but at least you don't lose a taunt if a mob wanders a couple of feet away or you knock them back a few feet.
I have a SS/WP brute and periodically disoriented foes will stagger a few feet away and i'll have to move or otherwise take action to reel them back in after they recover as the duration on my aura has elapsed.
Annoying, but still, not the end of the world. The regen factor of RttC is so amazing I'm willing to live with its weak taunt.
If people are cool with it is as it is then there is no need to change it. Some people remarked on it in the past in other sections and have not remarked on it here. Yet and may not do so there is no point in asking for a change.
I' m not arguing for it, more so I am looking to see how much there is in differences of opinion on it.
I'll keep saying "gauntlet more".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Myself, I believe that Willpower sacrifices team utility for personal use. You get powers that help nobody but yourself (I mean that broadly - of course, the tanker being alive, if the tanker is well played, benefits everyone), and in exchange, you have to work harder to maintain aggro. Makes the set quite good for solo, and means that you have to learn a skillset to play it teamed well.
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And that's really quite a bit of the issue. Get locked in on a boss and you're punchvoking all around him, but everything else is wandering away between ticks of RttC. So you've got to either pop AOEs or switch targets more often, and likely both, if you want to hold aggro.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I'll keep saying "gauntlet more".
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Gauntlet taunts for 13.5s. If you're attacking normally, regardless of the weak taunt aura, you should be able to hold a spawn or two relatively easily. Taunt helps, too (big duration multiplier, but no real damage multiplier, so even it can be overcome, if I understand the mechanics correctly). Some damage AT might steal a bit of that, but that's okay. If they whomp a target with a big orange number, it makes sense that the target might pay them some attention or at least have a chance to do so. That's not a big deal. The game's aggro mechanics are already very player-friendly, so some risk is good for the game.
WP is the best survivability set in the game. I've seen a lot of talk about defense and resists, but it's that unholy regen and +hp that really makes the set shine. When Invuln Tankers used to complain about the psi hole, someone would inevitably point to Dull Pain as de facto protection against psi and everything else. WP doesn't have any holes, it gets a passive +hp boost, and it gets gobs of regen. It's easy to get over 250hp/sec, which is better than having a pocket Emp spamming Healing Aura constantly.
If WP were really a terrible set, it'd be the rarest of the choices. As is, it's one of the most common, if not the most common, in use today for Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers. It is just that good for survivability and it's really easy to manage (toggle up, go kill stuff). It has one downside that can be overcome through gauntlet & taunt, one of which it gets for free on every attack and the second of which comes easily through power choices and requires no slotting.
All this said, I wouldn't be opposed to WP getting a 2 second duration on RttC's taunt. It'd still be a weak taunt aura, but at least it wouldn't have a gap.
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But I think half the sets have pretty good utility that they don't sacrifice aggro control for. The main thing Willpower gets is the extra endurance. But it's not the only set with utility. Fire has consume (newly buffed version) and of course the damage, though it sacrifices survivability for that damage. Invulnerability has invincibility's tohit bonus; I've used it to avoid slotting acc, so I know how valuable that is for attacks. Shield has AAO and of course can also buff defense. Ice has energy absorption which handles endurance issues about as well as quick recovery does, I think. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Myself, I believe that Willpower sacrifices team utility for personal use. You get powers that help nobody but yourself (I mean that broadly - of course, the tanker being alive, if the tanker is well played, benefits everyone), and in exchange, you have to work harder to maintain aggro. Makes the set quite good for solo, and means that you have to learn a skillset to play it teamed well.
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So why is willpower the only one sacrificing its aggro generation capability for its utility? The self rez? I love the self rez, but don't make me laugh.
Is the ability to have no significant damage type weaknesses that strong? Given that I've played fire and ice tanks, which both have a big weakness to two types of damage I'd say....No, not really. Not the way CoH is setup right now. It COULD be worth it, in theory, but there's no content in the game where this advantage is particularly game breaking.
You can use purples to make up for damage weaknesses, but you can't use an inspiration to hold aggro.
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
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The ability is pretty impressive, IME. I certainly would not call it game-breaking, but plenty of enemies have a good mix of damage types. It also has no holes in its status resists as well as effective resistance to some debuffs. |
Originally Posted by Tsuji
Is the ability to have no significant damage type weaknesses that strong? Given that I've played fire and ice tanks, which both have a big weakness to two types of damage I'd say....No, not really. Not the way CoH is setup right now. It COULD be worth it, in theory, but there's no content in the game where this advantage is particularly game breaking.
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It really has almost no weaknesses at all, no damage is particularly troubling, no status is any trouble, and even most debuffs are not that big a deal (due to a variety of factors; defense makes many debuffs just miss, it has enough +value in the set to counter the debuff, it resists the debuff, and/or it just doesn't care about the debuff). It also has two emergency buttons.
On top of all that, it has a taunt aura that will prevent runners and one that does aid significantly in holding aggro, although not as well as all the other sets.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Sacrificing aggro control is not a pay off for survivability really is it not like Stone Armours rooted which affects the player. You could say losing aggro to a defender and having the defender die and thus the player and the whole damn team at level 15 is an ideal pay off but I just don't see it that way. Ofc losing aggro can mean less regen but you don't need it because you have one less hitting you.
Knowing that the gauntlet duration is of 13.5 secs is meaningless, you either have aggro or you don't, you either see turners or stickers, taunt duration is not going to have the same effect on every npc and gauntlets can miss.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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By choosing Stone Armor and Rooted you have undermined your own attempt at an argument. Rooted is a serious drawback and weakness for your whole team. Turning it on and off in order to move through a mission or getting to the next spawn well after the rest of your team or making them wait as you try to get to the next spawn. Occasionally getting mezzed because you did not turn it back on in time. Ugh.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Sacrificing aggro control is not a pay off for survivability really is it not like Stone Armours rooted which affects the player.
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Maintaining aggro with that nightmare power turned on gets very tricky, since you can't simply jump when blocked in somewhere in order to reposition as needed (and even if you don't need to jump, running around the group can take an extra second or two that other tankers would not need). It is a definite skillset working with Rooted, at least as problematic as working with RttC. My Stone/Stone tanker is level 40 now and it has been a learning experience (logging out at the trams, someone needs to keep the monorail system safe). Definitely different dealing with the movement penalties.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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No significant damage weaknesses is still a secondary trait of WP, much like the endurance management. WP is all about the Regen, which is simply amazing. You can find builds here with 350+ hp/sec regen and capped hp. It's all passive, so you don't have to blow billions on global recharge IOs and sets or crash after a few minutes. That's what gives the set it's survivability.|
Originally Posted by Tsuji
So why is willpower the only one sacrificing its aggro generation capability for its utility? The self rez? I love the self rez, but don't make me laugh.
Is the ability to have no significant damage type weaknesses that strong? Given that I've played fire and ice tanks, which both have a big weakness to two types of damage I'd say....No, not really. Not the way CoH is setup right now. It COULD be worth it, in theory, but there's no content in the game where this advantage is particularly game breaking. |
The resists and defenses are great, too, especially when stacked with the regen & hp (edited... heh). So is the endurance management (again, passive). The +perception is nice. The exotic mez protection is nice. It gets everything and it gets it in good quantity. Well, everything except a standard taunt aura. That is the one and only weakness of the set. It also gives the Tanker AT a single option that isn't going to suck up aggro by default, which is a good thing on a lot of levels. Not everyone wants to be a meatshield.
Is this state of affairs good for people that want an everything set? No, but there are no everything sets. Build appropriately for what you want out of the character. I don't build an Invuln and then whine about how they need to give Invuln psi defense & resistance. The inadequacy of the set regarding psi damage is disclosed up front. Just like RttC's taunt aura. If you want a better taunt aura, roll something else.
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I am not having an argument and no I have not undermined it. With rooted you can if you have tp, still tp about, you can get swift, up the run speed and Mudpots is a good aura.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
By choosing Stone Armor and Rooted you have undermined your own attempt at an argument. Rooted is a serious drawback and weakness for your whole team. Turning it on and off in order to move through a mission or getting to the next spawn well after the rest of your team or making them wait as you try to get to the next spawn. Occasionally getting mezzed because you did not turn it back on in time. Ugh.
Maintaining aggro with that nightmare power turned on gets very tricky, since you can't simply jump when blocked in somewhere in order to reposition as needed (and even if you don't need to jump, running around the group can take an extra second or two that other tankers would not need). It is a definite skillset working with Rooted, at least as problematic as working with RttC. My Stone/Stone tanker is level 40 now and it has been a learning experience (logging out at the trams, someone needs to keep the monorail system safe). Definitely different dealing with the movement penalties. |
I have a stonetanker and I have a willpower tanker. The willpower tanker has the poo aura. You can get around the fact that stone isn't great at recoveries through movement just by asking a kin to a team if your that bad. WP has no such options. The second something has left the aura or the second, a scrapper attacks what it might not survive that's it. Stonetanks really don't have that type of issue. I will test my Stone with my mates Scrapper to see but I am doubtful as Mudpots lasts 13.5s so a Scrapper would have to be able to beat that, now what I tested with Willpower happened to be a Scrapper with and without a taunt aura and going through different attacks. Given how easy it was without the aura with light attacks your just not going to get the same results with mudpots. Also the good thing about Mudpots is its visibility, people can confirm more so a npc has been affected and when it was last effected.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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You are having an argument. You are disagreeing with me and presenting alternate viewpoints and opinions. It is OK, we are here to argue and learn from each other. Arguments do not imply screaming matches where we are angry or upset, simply that we want to discuss things and we are all coming from different viewpoints.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I am not having an argument and no I have not undermined it. With rooted you can if you have tp, still tp about, you can get swift, up the run speed and Mudpots is a good aura.
I have a stonetanker and I have a willpower tanker. The willpower tanker has the poo aura. You can get around the fact that stone isn't great at recoveries through movement just by asking a kin to a team if your that bad. WP has no such options. The second something has left the aura or the second, a scrapper attacks what it might not survive that's it. Stonetanks really don't have that type of issue. I will test my Stone with my mates Scrapper to see but I am doubtful as Mudpots lasts 13.5s so a Scrapper would have to be able to beat that, now what I tested with Willpower happened to be a Scrapper with and without a taunt aura and going through different attacks. Given how easy it was without the aura with light attacks your just not going to get the same results with mudpots. Also the good thing about Mudpots is its visibility, people can confirm more so a npc has been affected and when it was last effected. |
If your tests are just you standing there and letting your aura be the only taunt effect, they are worthless. We already know that RttC has a weaker taunt effect. It has been repeatedly acknowledged that Willpower has to do things other tankers may not in order to hold aggro (although the things that need to be done are usually things a good tanker player would likely do even on a non-willpower tanker).
TP? On top of the time it takes to shift-click, it has a two second cast time and is not end friendly. It works OK but is usually slower than another tanker would be, and you are using it to overcome your weakness, just like a WP tanker will need to use something to overcome its weakness.
Sure, Speed Boost overcomes the movement problem, of course speed boost also helps a Willpower tanker get its AoEs back faster as well as move faster so they can keep aggro better.
Stone tankers have a drawback that can be a detriment to the team just as much Willpower, IMO. Both can, of course, overcome those drawbacks and be a valuable team member.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Sorry to nitpick, but builds do not have 350+ hp/sec passive regen, even with saturated RttC.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
WP is all about the Regen, which is simply amazing. You can find builds here with 350+ hp/sec regen and capped hp. It's all passive, so you don't have to blow billions on global recharge IOs and sets or crash after a few minutes.
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Hp/Sec = (MaxHp * Regen) / 240
350 = (3212 * Regen) / 240
(350 * 240) / 3212 = Regen
26.15... = Regen
1.00 = 100% Regen
26.15 = 2,615% Regen
FH = 75%
Health = 40%
RttC = 350% (saturated)
Total = 465% unenhanced, 906.75% slotted (95% enh)
Assuming that you count the RttC double stack (which lasts only a server tick or so), that's still only an additional 250% (base) to 487.5% (slotted). That adds up to 1,394.25% regen. That's only halfway to what you claimed.
It's good, don't get me wrong, but not what you claim.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
WP has no such options.
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I always assumed you knew how to and could reliably hold aggro off aura Scrappers. Given what you're arguing here, was I mistaken?
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Stonetanks really don't have that type of issue. I will test my Stone with my mates Scrapper to see but I am doubtful as Mudpots lasts 13.5s so a Scrapper would have to be able to beat that, now what I tested with Willpower happened to be a Scrapper with and without a taunt aura and going through different attacks. Given how easy it was without the aura with light attacks your just not going to get the same results with mudpots. Also the good thing about Mudpots is its visibility, people can confirm more so a npc has been affected and when it was last effected.
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Thanks! I found the post that gave me that impression and I was seeing information that included buffs on the WP Tanker.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Sorry to nitpick, but builds do not have 350+ hp/sec passive regen, even with saturated RttC.
Hp/Sec = (MaxHp * Regen) / 240 350 = (3212 * Regen) / 240 (350 * 240) / 3212 = Regen 26.15... = Regen 1.00 = 100% Regen 26.15 = 2,615% Regen FH = 75% Health = 40% RttC = 350% (saturated) Total = 465% unenhanced, 906.75% slotted (95% enh) Assuming that you count the RttC double stack (which lasts only a server tick or so), that's still only an additional 250% (base) to 487.5% (slotted). That adds up to 1,394.25% regen. That's only halfway to what you claimed. It's good, don't get me wrong, but not what you claim. |
It does seem like 1200% passive should be doable, though. I managed 1111% on Mids with just Healing sets and procs. Getting another 89% shouldn't be that hard, but it'd still fall short of what I was thinking. Still less than half, in fact, but a TON of regen.
Not that it changes the results much but the new HP cap is 3534ish if I recall. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Well, first off, I'm not whining and don't think it's particularly mature to insult me because I have a different view about willpower than you do. I don't think that you bothered to read my sig before insulting me to show everybody how awesome you are since I have a number of non-50 WP tanks. I don't even have a 50 WP, I just started one for GR.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
No significant damage weaknesses is still a secondary trait of WP, much like the endurance management. WP is all about the Regen, which is simply amazing. You can find builds here with 350+ hp/sec regen and capped hp. It's all passive, so you don't have to blow billions on global recharge IOs and sets or crash after a few minutes. That's what gives the set it's survivability.
The resists and defenses are great, too, especially when stacked with the regen & hp (edited... heh). So is the endurance management (again, passive). The +perception is nice. The exotic mez protection is nice. It gets everything and it gets it in good quantity. Well, everything except a standard taunt aura. That is the one and only weakness of the set. It also gives the Tanker AT a single option that isn't going to suck up aggro by default, which is a good thing on a lot of levels. Not everyone wants to be a meatshield. Is this state of affairs good for people that want an everything set? No, but there are no everything sets. Build appropriately for what you want out of the character. I don't build an Invuln and then whine about how they need to give Invuln psi defense & resistance. The inadequacy of the set regarding psi damage is disclosed up front. Just like RttC's taunt aura. If you want a better taunt aura, roll something else. |
The 350hp/sec thing is just flat out not true, and you DEFINITELY aren't getting that much passive, so let's put that one aside.
The resists aren't what I'd call strong, shields has higher resists to all but S/L, so the non-psy exotic resists are like ice's damage debuff, although they affect all enemies rather than those hit by chilling embrace. They are passive, like you said.
I'm not sure the end regen being passive vs active makes much of a difference; the real question is how well it works. For instance, drain psyche isn't passive, yet it's amazing end regen. Hit one enemy and your end problems are solved until it drops. I literally ran all the leadership toggles and arctic air while leveling my ice/psi dom and never took stamina. But QR on its own doesn't remove end concerns. It does make end concerns better like stamina, but I'm not sure "it's passive" is a particularly huge benefit for a tanker as compared to a damage AT. I'm not sure whether it's enough to completely solve end concerns on its own or not; I'm going to try not taking stamina on mine and see where it gets me.
People make a big deal about the +perception and the exotic mez protection, but the question is WHERE do those even matter? When's the last time you actually saw fear, confuse, or repel in PvE? I figured we'd see more of it in praetoria, given that it was intended to be more difficult, but I don't recall seeing it anywhere. The only place it's useful is AE content. As for +perception, it's useful on the scrappers and etc. but I can't see it being particularly useful on a regen tanker given that as soon as you get hit you can see whoever hit you. You're a tank, so in theory they're all attacking you already.
Next, willpower DOES have weaknesses. -recharge makes you lose most of your aggro, and regardless of quick recovery willpower still has a weakness to endurance drain, just like most tank sets. It also doesn't have huge non-SL resists, so sudden bursts of exotic damage can still take you down. Beyond that, I think we just have a different opinion of how significant the damage type "weaknesses" in the other sets are. I think they're not particularly significant, and you disagree.
I don't think willpower's taunt aura weakness is disclosed up front unless you check the detailed info really closely. At least most of the WP tankers i've met who didn't read the forums didn't really know why it was hard to keep aggro, and I didn't really read the power descriptions since I already knew what they did.
I don't think it's a particularly good argument that willpower should be weaker at aggro generation because it's the set for people who want to attack things; you've already got shield and fire, both of which are much more heavily offensive sets and both of which have a strong taunt aura. If you want to attack and do damage be one of them, that's what they're there for.
I also think that having an aggro management weakness for the set compared to other tankers is alright, but that at the moment it's just TOO weak. Regardless of the aggro management weakness, if you go all out you should be able to hold aggro better than any non-tanker AT. They should not be able to steal aggro from you IF you're going balls to the wall. As soon as they do, the tanker, in the current game, becomes the worst AT option in the game. Low damage and its only damage multiplying skill is a single target resist debuff.
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
Reply to Sarrate.
You can probably dig up in search where I have said that I have kept aggro well enough tanking with a Willpower Scrapper objecting to a change needed in RTTC on account of QR. Gauntlet more. I don't like losing aggro to tanks. I tanked Lusca the other night having to keep tankers who were in that pug from getting killed. We had no defenders or controllers at all. It's therefore important that I personally don't lose aggro.
Other people do build and play differently which I think is nice and so for fun purposes would an increase to RTTC be beneficial. On naughty PuG teams where there is -tohit on tanker, -rechg on tanker, perhaps a slow and say an end drain all from which you can get from one group in the early 20s, is the price too much for the rest of the team to pay for Willpowers survivability?
I am a player who does sometimes team with other peoples willpower tankers lets not forget that. Do I deserve to eat floor for their abilities or lack off? Laying there doing nothing does nothing for my fun. With other auras NPCs are likely to momentarily still remember the Tanker the moment they leave the aura not instantly forget.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Your disagreeing with me telling me stuff I already know, thought about and disregarded before starting the thread. I'm not interested in comparing tankers and their pay offs, I am just interested in whats considered fun and whats not considered fun.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You are having an argument. You are disagreeing with me and presenting alternate viewpoints and opinions. It is OK, we are here to argue and learn from each other. Arguments do not imply screaming matches where we are angry or upset, simply that we want to discuss things and we are all coming from different viewpoints.
If your tests are just you standing there and letting your aura be the only taunt effect, they are worthless. We already know that RttC has a weaker taunt effect. It has been repeatedly acknowledged that Willpower has to do things other tankers may not in order to hold aggro (although the things that need to be done are usually things a good tanker player would likely do even on a non-willpower tanker). TP? On top of the time it takes to shift-click, it has a two second cast time and is not end friendly. It works OK but is usually slower than another tanker would be, and you are using it to overcome your weakness, just like a WP tanker will need to use something to overcome its weakness. Sure, Speed Boost overcomes the movement problem, of course speed boost also helps a Willpower tanker get its AoEs back faster as well as move faster so they can keep aggro better. Stone tankers have a drawback that can be a detriment to the team just as much Willpower, IMO. Both can, of course, overcome those drawbacks and be a valuable team member. |
Picture you on a blaster with a willpower tanker, somebody elses, they built their way, at 20-25 and then they play their way and consistently lose aggro quickly. How many times would you say get aggro and killed before you decide its not fun and leave? How too hard should it be to lose aggro? 1.25s is almost negligible when a tanker is moving. Gauntlet is negligeable versus -rechg, -tohit and eventually end drain. Taunt hits 5 at a time but you wait 5 secs between say if that if your lucky at 20-25, chances are they didnt pick up taunt and its on a 10sec rechg or longer due to -rechg.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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On this a seperate post just to clarify. I asked my scrapper friend to turn off his aura and attack a mob whilst it was in my RTTC. I already knew he wouldn't pull what was in RTTC, the test was to see how long it would be before the NPC would forget me as soon as I remove my RTTC. It was immediate so as soon as something out of the aura it's potentially anybodies. I just don't think its a sacrifice for the WP tanker unless they pride aggro control and/or play in the pugs. It's practically a penalty on the pugs for playing with a WP tanker. Maybe it should be if they don't aim to keep mobs close to the WP tanker but whether they see it that way I am not sure.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
A Scrapper without an aura (Invuln / Shield) won't pull aggro off you. I can assure you, however, if you don't Taunt, a Scrapper with an aura will. I used to do it regularly on my DM/Invuln back in the days of SOs. (I'd steal aggro of Invuln Tankers who didn't Taunt, too.)
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
There's no question that WP's taunt aura is very weak, but as others have pointed out, every set has weaknesses, and this is one of WP's. Having said that, I've got a WP tank at 50 and I have no problems getting and holding aggro via attacks and taunt.
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I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it with most forumites. Would not RTTC be better with a slightly longer duration so that taunt is not so much of a needed power? If it doesn't make a difference to good players with good builds then would it not be more fun and paceful for players teamed with bad Willpower tanker players with bad builds if Willpower kept aggro longer?|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
There's no question that WP's taunt aura is very weak, but as others have pointed out, every set has weaknesses, and this is one of WP's. Having said that, I've got a WP tank at 50 and I have no problems getting and holding aggro via attacks and taunt.
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It's not penalizing Willpower players who don't care.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I could maybe agree with upping the duration, as it does seem way off from the others. Too much, perhaps?
But I don't think it really even needs it. As it is, the only thing WP has going against it is aggro generation. It's solid against any type of damage, even if it doesn't like alpha strikes (and even then, its defense and resists can be upped well enough just with SOs and pool powers that it's not an issue). Maybe it could be better documented (can't recall RttC noting its weaker taunt), but that's about it.
In my experience bring a WP/DB to 50, it was fine as long as I kept the lower duration in mind. So I grabbed Taunt sooner than I usually do on my Tanks, used it often, and kept track of where the baddies were. Worked out fine for me, and I never had people wondering why I wasn't taking aggro (because most of them all were on me).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory