RTTC - Change?

WP's issue with alphas is largely temporary. Set IOs are not really needed to enable WP tankers to deal with difficult alphas. Tough and Weave pretty much have you covered. Before those are in place, there's always Strength of Will, which tends to be rather useless after you have them.

Playing a WP tanker means changing your mindset a bit. It's less about being the first in and more about seeing where the problems are and reacting intelligently. If a scrapper wants to charge ahead, let them. You can hang back and watch for the mobs that get loose. If your team needs you to tank traditionally, they will give you the leisure to herd a bit and taunt around.

If the Tank dies, it's the Healer's fault.
If the Healer dies, it's the Tanks fault.
If the DPS dies, IT'S THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT!

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

I'd modify this a bit.

If the Tank dies, it's his own damn fault.
If the squishies die it's the tank's fault.
If someone runs off and dies away from the team then it's their own damn fault.

I treat Scrappers as reasonably self sufficient but what do you reckon to this?

"In CoD it doesn't state that taunt effect doesn't stack for Blazing Aura, Chilling Embrace, Icicles or Mudpots and these are four powers that were around before i8. So would of been thought about in Circeus' guide. Should the CoD be correct in not saying the taunt effect doesn't stack because it does then perhaps I have missed changes since i8 which would be hardly surprising. If it doesn't always say whether it does or not, then that can lead to some confusion because with Willpower it also doesn't say that the effect doesn't stack. Either Willpower stacks and they don't, they all stack, or WP doesn't actually stack."

Also have you seen anyway where a Dev says that the taunt aura is bad due to WPs other strengths? Or where a Dev said it stacks? How did people work out it stacks? It should count as 2 powers by stacking.

I'm not really sure what your question is...

The damage auras all have a taunt component that stacks.
None of the debuff auras have a taunt component that stacks *except* for Chilling Embrace. At least none that I've seen.

You can tell it stacks or not by what the power says in COD.

Wow, you really like tossing the easy questions my way, don't you?

This is brute force simple, really.

RttC has two effects that affect the Target(s) ... ToHit Debuff and Taunt.

The ToHit Debuff specifically and explicitly says that the debuff does not stack from same caster.

The Taunt specifically and explicitly FAILS to say the taunt does not stack from same caster.

Therefore ... the ToHit Debuff does not stack ... and the Taunt does.

Quite
Easily
Done

Furthermore ... the Taunt in RttC is a MAG 3 with a 1.25 sec base duration on a 1 sec activation. This means that lacking any Taunt Enhancement, RttC *alone* will "leak" aggro of +0 Bosses (need Mag 3.1), EBs (need Mag 6.1) and AVs (need Mag 6.1) due to both insufficient MAG and overlap time to stack MAG. Without Taunt Enhancement, you'll essentially have 3+3=6 MAG for 0.25 sec out of every 1 sec. Your Taunt Aura is "weak" in that it is only effective against LTs full time, and only effective against Bosses 1/4 of the time, when not using Gauntlet to draw (and hold) aggro.

This is actually quite easy to test, with no Taunt IOs slotted, and you can even set up an AE mission to control the test.

Draw aggro of a +0 Boss with RttC only (no secondary attacks) on your Tanker.
Have a second player character (AT somewhat irrelevant) attack the +0 Boss.

3/4 of the time, the Boss should "peel off" from the Willpower Tanker, pretty much "instantly." That's because 3/4 of the time, the +0 Boss will only have a MAG 3 Taunt affecting them which is not enough to "hold aggro" on a +0 Boss. The remaining 1/4 of the time, the +0 Boss should remain focused on the Tanker ... but then quickly drop aggro (in less than 0.25 seconds, actually) on the Tanker and switch to the second player attacker. That's because the 0.25 second double stack overlap of MAG 3+3=6 expires (frequently) ... and once again you need to have more than MAG 3 to "hold" aggro from a Boss.

Now, if the Boss can't move out of RttC radius in the time between Activation pulses, then they'll tend to target switch a lot as they keep getting hit with a MAG 3+3=6 double stack for 0.25 seconds every 1 second ... but as you should quickly see, that "leaks" aggro from Bosses. It means that Bosses are perfectly capable of "shooting out" at teammates while being (intermittently!) Taunted by RttC.

This changes when you put two common 50 Taunt IOs into RttC (+83.32% post-ED).

1.25 sec * (1+0.8332) = 2.2915 sec

By extending the duration beyond 2 seconds with enhancements, you create a situation where the Taunt Stack never decreases below MAG 3+3=6 ... and ... for brief, repeating bursts (ie. 0.2915 sec per 1 second) actually triple stacks to create MAG 3+3+3=9 Taunt. Note that a single common 50 Taunt IO is insufficient to create a perma-double stack of Taunt from RttC.

1.25 sec * (1+0.424) = 1.78 sec

This is all operating on exactly the same rules and principles as being able to double stack Holds and Immobilizes so as to generate sufficient MAG to cause an effect to "stick" to a Boss, EB or AV and thus ... take effect. And the pre-requisite for being able to "self stack" a power onto itself and thus "perma" itself is to be able to have the duration be at least twice as long as the recharge+animation time (if a click) or have the duration be at least twice as long as the activation time (in a toggle) and not have the key phrase Effect does not stack from same caster appended to the SPECIFIC bullet point of the effect in question to be self stacked.

Effect does not stack from same caster is a modifier to specific effects, and is always spelled out explicitly on a per effect basis in powers with multiple effects.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Dispersion Bubble (Force Field Defender)
Target:

• DEF(All Types, Melee, Ranged, AOE) +10% for 0.75s [Non-resistable]
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• -8.65 Held, Stun, Immobilize for 0.75s If NOT on a PvP map [Non-resistable]
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• RES(Held, Stun, Immobilize) +86.5% for 0.75s If on a PvP map [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Notice how the Effect does not stack from same caster modifier is applied specifically to three different power effects, individually? That's because it's not a GLOBAL modifier like you'd been assuming ... it's an individual effect modifier. It modifies only the individual bullet pointed item it's attached to.

Now let's look at something like Siphon Speed (Kinetics Defender)
Target:

• RunSpeed, FlySpeed, SpeedJumping -0.625 for 60s [Non-resistable]
• JumpHeight -62.5% for 60s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
• RechargeTime -20% for 60s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
• Max RunSpeed -3.5 for 60s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
  Effect does not stack from same caster

It is perfectly possible for a Kinetics Defender to double (and even triple) stack Siphon Speed on a single target. The first, second and third bullet pointed effects can all be stacked ... but the fourth cannot. So with a double stack of Siphon Speed, the Target is at -40% Recharge Time ... and with a triple stack is at -60% Recharge Time. But the Max RunSpeed penalty will always be -3.5 no matter how deeply stacked Siphon Speed is from the same caster. Single stack or triple stack, from same caster doesn't matter, to Max RunSpeed.

Now let's look again at what the parameters are for Rise to the Challenge (Willpower Tanker)
Target:

• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
• ToHit -3.5% for 1s
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Clear as day ... if you know what you're reading, and what you're looking at, and understand how to program via spreadsheets. It doesn't get any more black and white obvious than this.

Effect does not stack from same caster applies only to the ToHit Debuff component ... not to the Taunt component ... of RttC.

Here ... look at Invincibility (Invincible Tanker)
Self:

• ToHit +2% for 1s
• DEF(Smashing) +1% for 1s If NOT on a PvP map
• DEF(Smashing) +5% for 1.12s If NOT on a PvP map
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• DEF(Smashing) +1% for 1s If on a PvP map
• DEF(Smashing) +5% for 1.12s If on a PvP map
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Target:

• +16.875s Taunt (mag 4) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• +16.875s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Makee Sensee yet?
Invincibility also has a 1 second Activation, just like RttC does ... but you can't stack the MAG from its Taunt. Stacking the Taunt from Invincibility is forbidden, for both Raid Mobs AND for non-Raid Mobs. Black and white, clearly spelled out. Effect does not stack from same caster only applies to individual bullet pointed effects, and individual powers often have multiple effects ... some of which are forbidden to self-stack, while some are allowed and permitted to self-stack. The distinction is clearly specified, each and every SINGLE time for each and every SINGLE effect of a power.

RttC's Taunt effect IS ALLOWED TO SELF STACK.
This is allowed because it is not specifically forbidden by the key phrase Effect does not stack from same caster. If it were you would not be seeing THIS:
Rise to the Challenge (Willpower Tanker)
Target:

• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
• ToHit -3.5% for 1s
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Instead, you would be seeing THIS:

Rise to the Challenge (Willpower Tanker)
Target:

• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• ToHit -3.5% for 1s
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Since the latter is explicitly *NOT* what you see, then that is explicitly *NOT* how the power operates (and how you apparently had been presuming that it does).

RttC *IS* allowed to self stack its Taunt MAG and Duration. In order to do so *effectively*, a minimum of +60% Taunt Enhancement is required ... in order to extend 1.25 seconds out to 2.0 (or more) seconds, in order to achieve a perma double stack of Taunt via RttC. This requires a minimum of two slots for +60% or more enhancement via SOs or IOs for a perma double stack of RttC Taunt to achieve a MAG 3+3=6 Taunt, permanently, after a Target has been within range for 1-2 seconds.

A perma triple stack of RttC Taunt would require +140% Taunt Enhancement, which due to ED is simply NOT POSSIBLE. However, brief triple stacks of RttC Taunt ARE possible when Taunt Duration is enhanced beyond 2.0 seconds (ie. greater than +60% enhancement). At +95% enhancement (+100% pre-ED), using three +0 SOs, a Taunt Duration of 2.4375 seconds can be achieved.

RttC *IS NOT* allowed to self stack its ToHit Debuff. THAT Effect does not stack from same caster.



Does that answer your question ... or do you need more RTFM than that?

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

We established that.

I got a reply from high up on the matter. CoD pulls info straight from the .def files.

Likely that most everything is fairly accurate unless changed.

The answer that I am looking for, therefore, would be that Circeus' guide to taunting wasn't wholly correct at the time. Either that or this is misleading:

"10) The Magnitudes of Taunt effects stack differently than other effects in game. Instead they stack from the same source (but not the same power), and do not stack from different sources."

At the time going by CoD Blazing Aura, Icicles, Mudpots, Chilling Embrace would of all stacked with themselves.

Believing that Circeus would of had the guide Dev checked this led to confusion because when reading the CoD I considered the possibility that the power didn't need the text to say that it didn't stack with itself.

Edit: Even when trying to character copy onto test from other computers other than my own the character copy tool part of the forum times out. So still have yet to to see things for myself as I need to do.

I'm thinking that what Circeus was getting at is that Taunt does not stack up from multiple sources (ie. different casters) the way that other status effects (sleep, hold, immobilize, etc.) do. If two different casters apply a hold (each) to a single target, the MAGs on those holds stack, which incidentally is how a lot of bosses get held/stunned/slept/whatever. You just have two casters combine to stack enough MAG for the status effect to actually take effect.

Taunt doesn't (by design) work like that. Two casters don't stack their Taunt MAG together in order to achieve a singular effect (taunt) in the same way that mezz effects stack for holds/immobilizes/stuns/etc.

Taunt MAG is primarily used to determine if the target "responds" to the taunt (ie. MAG 3 on LT and MAG 4 on Boss and so on). Once your MAG Stack o' Taunt exceeds the target's MAG Protection, you're in the running for being able to grab aggro (and hold onto it) regardless of what other people are doing to that target.

In this respect, I think that Circeus was either wrong or ill informed as to how the powers themselves functioned, with respect to the Effect does not stack from same caster modifier on powers data. The (but not the same power) notation by Circeus is correct for some powers (ie. those with Effect does not stack from same caster on their Target: components), and incorrect for others (ie. those which lack this modifier).

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...