For me, I always loved invuln because it has good resists, good defense, and is theme neutral. I would have made my new KM tanker invuln if invuln had a self rez; don't know why, but I really love self rezzes.
*johnny's gigantic quote removed to save space*
The arcs aren't that bad for willpower when solo, but then again it might be KM's -damage that's helping me. They all have a lot of -regen but you can take fast healing and also target the people who do -regen, so the -regen hasn't killed me...yet. Not sure if I could tank for a team though.
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
Lets see capped out S/L resistance, Soft Capped defense with foes in range, and for me.. Perma Dull Pain... yeah.. good...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Oh Dull Pain, how I love thee. I like jumping into mobs sometimes and letting 'em beat me down, just to let them think they're gonna beat me and then BAM! Great big freaking heal and I go to work.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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That brings up another thing that's nice about Invuln. It benefits from the best/most stackable IO set bonuses. It benefits from +recharge with perma Dull Pain, and from defense with Invincibility providing meaningful defense to build on, allowing you to soft cap without sacrificing everything else. Since these seem to be the most potent IO set bonus types, Invuln taking advantage of both of them gets quite a kick in the pants. Compare to a set like Electric Armor, which has no base defense to build on, or Willpower, which gains nothing at all from recharge, and you can see another reason why Invuln is popular.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Lets see capped out S/L resistance, Soft Capped defense with foes in range, and for me.. Perma Dull Pain... yeah.. good...
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
There is no doubt that IOs and Invuln go together like PB&J.
But then again what armor set doesn't? Amongst my many IO tank experiments I count
A wp/sm with either nigh capped resists or typed defense to all dmg types but toxic.
A fire/ss that self caps his own damage with ease
A soft capped to all invuln/dm
A soft cap +hp capped(well used to be anyway) shield/axe
A max recharge ice/mace that blows the softcap away and skipped fitness completely.
A wicked little da/db with monsterous aoe damage
A stone/fire that retains only the -jump penatly in granite
A elec/em with capped, or nearly capped, resists to all.
A shield/elec with softcap, huge rech, and self damage cap
A stupidly high recharge fire/ice
Most of these tanks are a match for the invuln in survivability, many are a match for aggro control, many have similar if not better soloability and damage output.
While I am in no way disappointed in invuln I can't in all honesty claim that it is superior to the other armor sets.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Imo, Inv/ is the best "overall" set a tanker have. I've been playing since early 2005 and sadly, I didn't know this until about a month ago when I rolled my first Inv/Fire tank, and MAN was I blown away. While my fire/ss tank is still my favorite, Inv/Fire almost kicked it to the curb.
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
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Like I posted before, Invuln doesn't need sets to be good. Everything gets better with them. Resistance-focused sets improve greatly with IO set bonuses to defense. Invuln has unbelievable resist where it counts most (S/L) and something less desirable elsewhere, but it has some defense to build on if you decide to go that route. If not, you've got Dull Pain and/or Unstoppable to keep you alive against the exotics.|
Originally Posted by abnormal_joe
There is no doubt that IOs and Invuln go together like PB&J.
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Most of these tanks are a match for the invuln in survivability, many are a match for aggro control, many have similar if not better soloability and damage output. While I am in no way disappointed in invuln I can't in all honesty claim that it is superior to the other armor sets. |
When it comes to survivability, again we get to the question of how much you really need. Invuln will be better than most due to 90% resists to 70% of incoming damage, 30% resists (or 90% if you pop Unstoppable) to 28% of incoming damage, and a great big 0% for psi (2%). That's assuming you don't either pick missions for the character or characters for the mission.
Compared to the resists for anything other than Stone, Invuln is way ahead. Softcapping is the big benefit here. You can essentially stack the defense of the Ice set onto any Tanker, to one degree or another, and it isn't difficult to softcap to S/L on any AT. Invuln is defense-friendly, being one of the easier resistance sets to softcap (Dark being the other). If you softcap just S/L on even the weakest of the primaries, you'll end up with a very durable character. It won't necessarily be durable at the extreme levels of the game, but it'll be great for 95%+ of the content out there.
One thing Invuln doesn't have is any sort of offense. It's a purely defensive set, so if you're judging them on offensive capabilities (e.g. soloability & damage output), it'll come up short. It's not a speed farming set. It's a survivability & aggro set, great for tanking. It isn't an everything set, but nothing is and nothing should be. Players looking for aggro control and survivability in a Tanker, both typical goals, do well to take Invuln. It's not necessary, but it is helpful.
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I am quite pleased with how well my Inv Tanker exemplars down, even to very low levels where his set bonuses are gone.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Like I posted before, Invuln doesn't need sets to be good.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
Invuln has the second best aggro control, behind Shield, due to Shield's equal aura duration and damage buffs. Everything else falls behind by several thousand threat points at any given moment.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
One thing Invuln doesn't have is any sort of offense. It's a purely defensive set, so if you're judging them on offensive capabilities (e.g. soloability & damage output), it'll come up short.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Considering that everyone slots attacks to the accuracy cap, no, I don't think it does.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Does Invincibility's to-hit buff count as offensive?
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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The extra taunt duration on Invuln helps quite a bit (+25%). To my knowledge, Taunt doesn't stack. A target is either taunted or not taunted, with the highest effective duration used in the threat calc.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Even Ice's stackable taunt auras?
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Ice's Chilling Embrace tics every 0.5 seconds, twice as fast as Invuln so it grabs aggro faster.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
The extra taunt duration on Invuln helps quite a bit (+25%). To my knowledge, Taunt doesn't stack. A target is either taunted or not taunted, with the highest effective duration used in the threat calc.
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I've played opposite lots of tankers; the only ones I've NEVER gotten aggro away from even by trying full tilt are Ice. CE really IS that good; it instantly grabs aggro and holds it with a pair of vice grips. Invuln and Shield are fantastic at aggro but let's be honest here; Ice really does beat everything else in aggro control.
For the record I don't have any Ice tanks of my own but I freely acknowledge that it's better at aggro.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Chilling Embrace also applies 14 debuffs:
1) Run Speed
2) Flight Speed
3) Jump Speed
4) Recharge
5) Max Run Speed
6) Jump Height
7-14) Damage Debuff (one for each type)
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No, the taunt effect just ticks at 13.5 and refreshes at 13 back to 13.5. Invuln's ticks at 16.9 and 15.9 back to 16.9. Taunt duration remaining gets multiplied by 1000 as part of the threat calc. Nothing stacks, it just refreshes at the highest available value.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Ice's Chilling Embrace tics every 0.5 seconds, twice as fast as Invuln so it grabs aggro faster.
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Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)
Shield, with high damage (thanks to AAO), a debuff (again thanks to AAO), and a 16.9 duration taunt is the king of aggro. Debuff mod is a number between 1 & 2 (not sure of values of specific powers). AT mod is 4 (Tanker or Brute) or 3 (Scrapper). Due to their higher damage potential, Shield Brutes are the undisputed aggro kings.
Taunt (the power) can have a duration of up to about 82 seconds if slotted. That means you can have ~82000 for the "Taunt Duration Remaining" portion and refresh that as fast as Taunt comes up (10s unenhanced, IIRC). Compared to the 16900 (Invuln & Shield) or 13500 base (all non-WP), that's a huge modifier. Again, though, it doesn't stack. It just refreshes and retains the highest available level.
By the numbers, assuming equal offensive ability, Ice needs to overcome a 25% deficit to Invuln in the Threat Duration Remaining portion. It might do that through debuffs, but I don't know the exact values in play. Shield can match Ice's debuffs to some degree (possibly exceeding them, depending on the calculation), has a damage buff that will increase threat by default, and has a longer base duration.
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| I've played opposite lots of tankers; the only ones I've NEVER gotten aggro away from even by trying full tilt are Ice. CE really IS that good; it instantly grabs aggro and holds it with a pair of vice grips. Invuln and Shield are fantastic at aggro but let's be honest here; Ice really does beat everything else in aggro control. |
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Base, Taunt lasts 41 seconds. Slotted that increases to ~80 seconds. It's pretty easy to keep that duration going on far more than 5 mobs, especially if you have any amount of recharge in it (mine recharges in ~5.5s).|
Originally Posted by streetlight
If there are more than five targets (Taunt max), then any Tanker can lose aggro.
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The trick on fast / aggressive teams is to get to the spawn 5-10s before your group to ensure get setup.
* Jump to the far side of the spawn while Taunting the closest
* AoE
* Use your attacks (if Taunt isn't up)
* Taunt a different portion of the spawn
* etc
[edit: Also, applying taunt effects generate threat, too. It's why Taunt (which deals no damage) will pull aggro off a squishy. It's also why Tankers can stand next to mobs and go afk while the group won't pull aggro off them (aside from WP against +2s or higher, iirc).]
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We could all read paragonwiki or remember the post when it was made about that calc but..I think this is what CMA was getting at.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
No, the taunt effect just ticks at 13.5 and refreshes at 13 back to 13.5. Invuln's ticks at 16.9 and 15.9 back to 16.9. Taunt duration remaining gets multiplied by 1000 as part of the threat calc. Nothing stacks, it just refreshes at the highest available value.
Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000) /snip |
If CE has a tick rate of 0.5s and Invincible has a tick rate of 1 sec then when it comes to getting an npc within the taunt aura CE is more likely to get a tick on the npc sooner.
A firetanks aura ticks every 2s. It could fire off just before getting to the npc which would leave more than enough time for another tanker who had also got to it, say an Invuln, to enter and get a tick to it sooner.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I believe it is likely that the number of attacks made as well as the time since the last attack are also a factor in threat.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
No, the taunt effect just ticks at 13.5 and refreshes at 13 back to 13.5. Invuln's ticks at 16.9 and 15.9 back to 16.9. Taunt duration remaining gets multiplied by 1000 as part of the threat calc. Nothing stacks, it just refreshes at the highest available value.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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If more people knew about it, it would stop a lot of confusion. I thought Taunt stacked up until a few weeks ago and at one time believed Magnitude mattered in the calc. I wondered how aggro could ever be lost. Then someone posted the calc and cleared up stacking for me, which was nice.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
We could all read paragonwiki or remember the post when it was made about that calc
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I do wish we had more info on how debuffs factor in, though.
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but..I think this is what CMA was getting at. If CE has a tick rate of 0.5s and Invincible has a tick rate of 1 sec then when it comes to getting an npc within the taunt aura CE is more likely to get a tick on the npc sooner. A firetanks aura ticks every 2s. It could fire off just before getting to the npc which would leave more than enough time for another tanker who had also got to it, say an Invuln, to enter and get a tick to it sooner. |
Taunt the back of a spawn, move to the front of a spawn (or vice versa) and you'll have it taunted within 0-2.0 seconds. You'll also get the "first available target" moment regardless of primary (or AT, for that matter), which isn't technically Taunt, but works just as well for that first round of attacks, each of which will have an animation between 0.75 and 4 seconds. After that, Taunt should be working into the equation.
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As I said, CE tics every 0.5 seconds so it will grab aggro faster. That's indisputable, it applies it's effects twice per second while Invuln applies it's effects only once per second. Because of this Ice will grab aggro faster than Invuln, and Invuln will grab aggro faster than Fire, Stone and possibly others that have an aura that tics once every two seconds.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
If more people knew about it, it would stop a lot of confusion. I thought Taunt stacked up until a few weeks ago and at one time believed Magnitude mattered in the calc. I wondered how aggro could ever be lost. Then someone posted the calc and cleared up stacking for me, which was nice.
I do wish we had more info on how debuffs factor in, though. That only matters for the first 0-2.0 seconds before any taunt aura ticks. Fire could tick immediately upon contact or just a hair less than 2 seconds later, depending on when the toggle was activated. Taunt the back of a spawn, move to the front of a spawn (or vice versa) and you'll have it taunted within 0-2.0 seconds. You'll also get the "first available target" moment regardless of primary (or AT, for that matter), which isn't technically Taunt, but works just as well for that first round of attacks, each of which will have an animation between 0.75 and 4 seconds. After that, Taunt should be working into the equation. |
I don't in any case mean that there's anything at all wrong with Invuln's aggro generation... it works fine and holds aggro very well. Ice IS better at it though; I've played opposite Ice tankers enough to know that. The Ice will grab aggro instantly and I can't get it away from him even by taunting and attacking.
One thing to consider here is that in order to steal aggro you must generate TWICE the aggro (via taunt, attacks and so forth) of the character who currently possesses that aggro. The Ice tanker's aura pulses twice as fast, therefore he will tend to gain aggro first, and his Icicles will lock that aggro down with damage.
It's fair that Ice has superior aggro ability; Ice lacks the level of durability of Invuln. No one set has all the best toys after all... Stone has unrivaled durability, Ice has the aggro management and Invuln is probably the best all around. Just shy of Stone's durability and just shy of Ice's aggro ability. That sounds like a nice place to me
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Again, this doesn't matter, because the taunt effect doesn't stack (it just refreshes) and the actual tick is based off of when the toggle was originally turned on. So a character with a 2s ticking aura could have it tick immediately upon getting in range or up to 2s after. A Tanker with a 2s ticking aura could even have it cycle first over a fellow Tanker's 0.5s ticking aura if they were staggered in any way. A faster aura might get a refresh sooner, but that's it and the difference in duration will at most be 1.5s for purposes of the threat calc (WP excepted).|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
As I said, CE tics every 0.5 seconds so it will grab aggro faster. That's indisputable, it applies it's effects twice per second while Invuln applies it's effects only once per second. Because of this Ice will grab aggro faster than Invuln, and Invuln will grab aggro faster than Fire, Stone and possibly others that have an aura that tics once every two seconds.
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This "faster" is meaningless, because if a Tanker wanders into a mob first, without even having a taunt aura active, he'll be the first target of opportunity and immediately draw all aggro from all targets that perceive him. As soon as that Tanker attacks, again regardless of what happens with the ticking aura, Gauntlet fires off, generating a taunt effect.
The aura is really a backup when it comes to maintaining threat. It's good at the job, but none of them do so much damage or create such an extensive debuff as to be enough on their own. You still have to damage a target sufficiently and stay close to it for threat to remain effective.
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| One thing to consider here is that in order to steal aggro you must generate TWICE the aggro (via taunt, attacks and so forth) of the character who currently possesses that aggro. The Ice tanker's aura pulses twice as fast, therefore he will tend to gain aggro first, and his Icicles will lock that aggro down with damage. |
On a side note, I'm not saying Ice is bad at aggro. It's quite good and certainly above average for Tankers. It's just not the best (Shield is). Invuln can be better, depending on how much damage is being thrown around and how many targets are hit.
The tick speed is further irrelevant when you should be taunting/attacking with range on the way in, preferably mid jump and use the momentum to land you in amongst the crowd, so that they are taunted before you even arrive.
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I know that I taunt or aoe the front of a spawn as I sail over their heads to land in the back of the spawn. Getting aggro for me has less to do with the ability of the aura and more to do with properly judging when your team mates are going to alpha.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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Which, typically, is just before you've locked down all the aggro. :P
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Originally Posted by abnormal_joe
and more to do with properly judging when your team mates are going to alpha.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
back to the original topic.
Why does everyone love Invuln so much.
As said before, it's easy.
My second tank to hit 50 was my Invuln/Fire. Loved it for a minute, but got boring. I still like it for farming occasionally, when I need a break from my Fire/Fire, but thats about it.
I find my DA to be just as survivable as my Invuln, if not more. Having a ridiculously huge heal on a really fast recharge is a beautiful thing.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Absolutely and completely disagree with this. |
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
The tick speed is further irrelevant when you should be taunting/attacking with range on the way in, preferably mid jump and use the momentum to land you in amongst the crowd, so that they are taunted before you even arrive.
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All taunting and attacking from range before you jump into melee will do is spread out the mob, slow down your speed of acquiring aggro and cause the alpha strike to be directed towards your team.
It's MUCH faster to lock down a spawn by jumping into the middle (if it's tightly bunched) or by making a fast circuit around the group and ending up behind them. This tends to bunch them up for aggro and team AOE's and it ensures that any AOE's that the mobs throw are directed AWAY from the team.
Taunting first then running into melee is an absolutely terrible way to gather aggro and endangers the team. A tanker with a good aura can have a spawn's aggro locked down and pointed away from the team in about 2 seconds; taunting first and then attacking from range before you run in will take FAR longer and will only grab aggro of a few of the mobs.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
i love my invul tanker. still is the best one i made