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Originally Posted by ELF_STALKER
Really who would play for a tie....this is champion server. We ride or die.
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i approve this message.
Well, for you other 4 captains that voted to keep unlimited stalkers, let us know if any of you change your mind. Otherwise, I'd at least like to hear why you like unlimited stalkers.
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I voted against unlimited, but basically...they let you play a draw game or get quick kills and hide.|
Originally Posted by Psoma
Well, for you other 4 captains that voted to keep unlimited stalkers, let us know if any of you change your mind. Otherwise, I'd at least like to hear why you like unlimited stalkers.
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There are prizes, so people are unlikely to agree on anything that might weaken their teams or strats just for the greater good.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Ok another team Captain changed their vote.
Stalker limit of 2. Op edited.
And another vote came in to limit healers.
Limit of 1 healer in 3v3's and less and 2 healers in 4v4's and more.
(Healers are defined as empathy, thermal and Pain sets.)
and on that note...next weeks fight schedule is posted. GLHF guise.
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Isn't that the same thing as the previous vote?
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
Limit of 1 healer in 3v3's and less and 2 healers in 4v4's and more. (Healers are defined as empathy, thermal and Pain sets.) |
I may be overly tired and having a blond moment, not sure what you are asking. There was a vote with 2 different wordings of the same type of rule change. This is the version that was voted in. There is no previous vote, its the same vote, just a Captain changed their vote. Just as a Captain changed their vote on the stalker vote.
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Originally Posted by DaveMebs
Isn't that the same thing as the previous vote?
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So where limit to 1 healer...and thermal is consider one these healer? Well what about ur therm is more offensive the a buffer?
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
And another vote came in to limit healers.
Limit of 1 healer in 3v3's and less and 2 healers in 4v4's and more. (Healers are defined as empathy, thermal and Pain sets.) |
Are you serious?????
Didn't the 4 points for a win, 2 points for a loss/tie take care of the worry for ties people??? I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone would run a draw team the rest of the league with the new point structure. There is nothing good that can come from limiting ATs or roles within a league, ESPECIALLY if the reason the limit was proposed has been addressed. I was puzzled that anyone wanted to run a 3 healer lineup and draw in the 1st place since losing awarded more points with the original score system. The only way I see people playing draw teams now, is just to fudge up a higher ranked team. So if the point is to limit healers in an effort to avoid people from running draw teams, what's stopping that team from running 2 tanks & 1 emp? Let me elaborate...
IMO this new ruling is basically a pandora's box or trojan horse issue. I can think of a bunch of combinations that would absolutely wreck 1 healer lineups. Is that what we really want? Do we want 15-2 or 20-3 matches where people get discouraged? And when those 15 or 20 point losses start rolling in, do we want to see 2 tanks and 1 healer just because people dislike getting wiped so bad? Would a vote be proposed on limiting tanks occur at that point? That's only one example.
We all agree that running 3 stalkers is a d0uche move. There are a few other combinations in a 3v3 that would be douchey as well. Are we intending on banning them all as they are introduced? Or can we just have a Saturday fight night with the hopes that every team shows up to win the whole dam thing?
I strongly urge captains to reconsider their votes on the limiting of emps, therms and pains taking into account the new point structure.
- Convenient - //\ - Exile - //\ - AatC -
Since this rule change was put in place to limit 3 healer lineups, I think it would make more sense just to limit teams to 2 healers regardless of team size.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
1 healer is ridiculous. Two is fair. Three can be tough, but not impossible. In last week's match dumb managed to pull off a couple wins even though the team we were fighting had two therms, and an emp, with double stacked thaw so we couldnt cold debuff them. Learn to spike, not change the rules so you just smash buttons till the healer dies.
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I would agree if this were 8 v 8. However, we're playing at base 3 v 3. |
Originally Posted by CityofChange
Are you serious?????
Didn't the 4 points for a win, 2 points for a loss/tie take care of the worry for ties people??? I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone would run a draw team the rest of the league with the new point structure. There is nothing good that can come from limiting ATs or roles within a league, ESPECIALLY if the reason the limit was proposed has been addressed. I was puzzled that anyone wanted to run a 3 healer lineup and draw in the 1st place since losing awarded more points with the original score system. The only way I see people playing draw teams now, is just to fudge up a higher ranked team. So if the point is to limit healers in an effort to avoid people from running draw teams, what's stopping that team from running 2 tanks & 1 emp? Let me elaborate... |
You run multiple healers etc your risk turning games into slow grinds.
In previous low number teams I've seen, people have either:
i)Registered one toon that they stayed on forever.
ii)Limited ATs to one of any AT/Powerset on the team.
iii)Limited Stalkers to ONE in a 3 v 3 setting, two for larger settings.
Edit: Before anyone thinks this ruling benefits us, it doesn't. Essentially this means that Philly and myself can't play at the same time, which limits our team options. C'est la vie, I guess.
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IMO this new ruling is basically a pandora's box or trojan horse issue. I can think of a bunch of combinations that would absolutely wreck 1 healer lineups. Is that what we really want? Do we want 15-2 or 20-3 matches where people get discouraged? And when those 15 or 20 point losses start rolling in, do we want to see 2 tanks and 1 healer just because people dislike getting wiped so bad? Would a vote be proposed on limiting tanks occur at that point? That's only one example. We all agree that running 3 stalkers is a d0uche move. There are a few other combinations in a 3v3 that would be douchey as well. Are we intending on banning them all as they are introduced? Or can we just have a Saturday fight night with the hopes that every team shows up to win the whole dam thing? |
Remember you need FOUR other people agreeing with you on the issue.
The team fielding the killer lineup is not going to give you their vote. That means you're needing to convince another 4 people, so pretty much all the remaining teams of the viability of your vote.
Remember that there can be TWO votes on any one issue. If teams start getting rolled they can either call a re-vote on the issue or they can propose something that addresses the issues OR they can just roll with it and see how it goes.
As stated previously, you can't really expect people to GLHF with prizes on the line. Votes will be used politically to address teams that get too close to the top. Of course, Kat has the final say on any vote even being passed on to other captains, so there should be some stability from hereon in.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
The point I was trying to make is NO good can come from limiting an AT other that stalkers. If team "A" waaaabulences that they can't beat team "B" with 2 healers, what's to stop them from crying when someone brings 2 tanks? It's the precedent that's set from limiting in the 1st place.
Also, you pretty much answer your own argument Neuronia. This is a league with titles and prizes. Therefore there are reasons why teams WANT a limit on healers. That's because they want to be able to get kills and work their way back into contention.
The question that needs to be asked is would this limit have passed on day 1 before any matches took place given the 4 points for a win, 2 points for ties/loss scoring system? I don't think so because it would have been implemented already as this isn't Kat's 1st time around the block with leagues. That is the most unbiased way to approach this rule change. A change after the fact will always have bias in it no matter what anyone says.
- Convenient - //\ - Exile - //\ - AatC -
F it let's run 3 tanker teams. Seriouly no one is aiming for ties. If you good u still can win. I mean we beat 2emp and trick arrow comb. We were still out damage the two emp. Honestly this push is to benefit the out side server cause they don't have many alts on this server. This a champion league if dont have the toon to compete get the stepping
I don't know what kind of drama you guys have had here in the past, and if that is creating illogical votes or whatever, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that limiting our team to 1 healer (or 2 with 4v4 or 5v5) is not going to make things more difficult for us. It irritates me, because it forces us to play toons that we've played so much in the past, instead of offering a bit of a challeng by playing dual-role toons. Anyway, for teams like us that know how to take advantage of a healer cap, this will likely just make our line-ups a bit boring...and result in our future matches not turning out too well for others.
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all matches has been pretty good and except ties that happen last week. Which the point system has been change. Which solve the problem. U freedom peeps need to stop assuming that teams aiming for tied or setting up for ties.
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Originally Posted by Psoma
I don't know what kind of drama you guys have had here in the past, and if that is creating illogical votes or whatever, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that limiting our team to 1 healer (or 2 with 4v4 or 5v5) is not going to make things more difficult for us. It irritates me, because it forces us to play toons that we've played so much in the past, instead of offering a bit of a challeng by playing dual-role toons. Anyway, for teams like us that know how to take advantage of a healer cap, this will likely just make our line-ups a bit boring...and result in our future matches not turning out too well for others.
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If this happens team captains can call to limit/ban other ATs and powersets until it is only Blaster/Blaster/Emp or Blaster/Blaster/Therm.|
Originally Posted by Psoma
this will likely just make our line-ups a bit boring...and result in our future matches not turning out too well for others.
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And around and around it will go until we come down to a standard line-up and builds for all teams, just like it was on Test Ladder.
Lite of Paragon:
No, most assuredly none of this craziness would have occurred prior to the week one matches if the point system was there. But, as much as I hate this expression, it is what it is.
Of course people want to work their way back into contention. It's a competitive endeavour with rewards. Some groups will tweak builds, others roll new builds while others still will try to pull the rugs from under people's feet.
Mark my words Lite and Psoma, agreeing with Lite here, people will call for limits on other powersets until a standard Jump Team line-up occurs and everyone is on the same footing.
Remember that the base setting for matches is 3 v 3, so we need to figure out what's best for THAT setting, while examining 4 v 4 and 5 v 5 as well.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
zomg 3 stalkers are teh ebil!! BANZ0RZ!!!
2 weeks later....
someone runs a lineup of 2 storms and a taunter....
ZOMG THAT'S EVEN MORE TEH EBIL!! BAN DAT NAO PLOXX!!!OENOENOEN111
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I thought the matches had been pretty good up until now too...which is why I'm asking why people think a healer cap is needed.|
Originally Posted by ELF_STALKER
all matches has been pretty good and except ties that happen last week. Which the point system has been change. Which solve the problem. U freedom peeps need to stop assuming that teams aiming for tied or setting up for ties.
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And I'm from Infinity-most of dUmb is-and the only thing we're assuming is that people are voting for something without fully understanding the consequences.
Why can we just leave things how they were. Point system was only thing that needed change. It did so the rest sould be left alone
Im with Psoma on this.
Im confident that Exile can come up with lineups the will wreck 1 team healers in 3v3s. With the rules set up in such a way that 3v3 is the default, there is the ability to be straight d*ckmove and force people into a 3v3 and farm them. Which is why I mentioned what happens when 15-1 scores start rolling in? Do we expect people to just sit there and keep getting wiped? That's why I gave the example of 2 tanks and a healer....which = draw.
With the new point system NO ONE in their right mind will be playing for a draw. Loss and draws are the same so why not field lineup with the best chance to win? If you lose you get the same points as if you went super conservative.
- Convenient - //\ - Exile - //\ - AatC -
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People will stop showing up, two or three teams will be left fighting for the first place rank. Also, a few teams are already getting these lopsided scores, resulting in rumours of one of the teams dropping from the ladder. If people get wiped they'll either need new builds, new strats or they'll drop from the league.|
Originally Posted by CityofChange
Im with Psoma on this.
Im confident that Exile can come up with lineups the will wreck 1 team healers in 3v3s. With the rules set up in such a way that 3v3 is the default, there is the ability to be straight d*ckmove and force people into a 3v3 and farm them. Which is why I mentioned what happens when 15-1 scores start rolling in? Do we expect people to just sit there and keep getting wiped? |
Or people will vote to limit more stuff. I won't be forwarding any votes myself, unless my teammates think it's important enough.
Just as a imho, it seems better from a meta standpoint to lie in the weeds, get your points from wins where you can and make a push in the final weeks. If you don't draw attention to yourself then other teams can't pull the "banstick" on you, so you can use alternate strats later in the season when nothing can be done about them.
Showing your cards now, when a precedent has been set of archetype limitations, seems unwise.
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| With the new point system NO ONE in their right mind will be playing for a draw. Loss and draws are the same so why not field lineup with the best chance to win? If you lose you get the same points as if you went super conservative. |
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Ok lets clarify a few things.
- When a vote passes that is the vote unless one of those Captains change their mind in the next day or so that vote will remain. I will not be allowing the second voting to be wasted on a rewording to cancel out the first vote. If Captains didn't feel like they were making the decisions they wanted to make they would contact me. I am not going to waste my time re-voting votes that already passed.
- Allowing Captains to make motions for rule changes was not put in the rules to create drama. It was put there for the purpose of fixing problems. Going on and on about why you don't agree with the votes is retarded. Even a horrible pvp'r like me knows a dozen lineups to bring to wreck 1 healer teams. Adapt and have fun doing it.
- The fact that AT's even need to be considered being limited is ridiculous. People should be playing and having fun and not using "safe" or "FOTM" lineups. However people do and will and its all equally Lame. Some Captains feel like some lineups are impossible to counter and want some changes. Apparently the MAJORITY think it is necessary and whether they have thought out the repercussions or not is irrelevant.
- The end result is that EVERY team has the ability to play various lineups. With only 1 healer the only thing that should change is the kill counts going up in matches. The end result should still be that the BEST team won the match. Teams will start bringing colds or Tk's etc. Both teams "CAN" do it and if both do it then its just all about who does it better.
- Discussing things is fine. Lets keep it productive and moving forward. Trying to alienate other teams because they are "outsiders" is ridiculous. The only team that isn't from Champion is dUmb and being they are complaining about the 1 healer rule going in to effect on the thread it makes no sense to blame them. Realize the teams from other servers could pl any build they want in a matter of days and be ready for the fight night with accolades and build done. That has been the way of hardcore pvp forever, this league is no different.
- At this point both the stalker and healer rules are staying in place. As the season progresses and teams actually do matches under this rule and find that its not working out then if a Captain who voted in favor of it changes their mind I will allow a re-vote, or a reworking of the rule.
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Thing is, you can only bring 3 people into the match so you need to put out enough damage/disruption to kill the other team more than they kill you.|
Originally Posted by CriticalKat
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That's the problem with 3 v 3, you don't have the liberty of an 8 v 8 where you could field a Trick Arrow, Kin, your 3 Blasters, a Mind/Thorns, some EMps, etc.
The less people you have to play with, the more focused your builds will become and the less leeway you have with experimentation and fun.
Say you spend your weekend trying out something just to see how it does (we did this in week 1) and you lose all your matches. You're six points behind the team you lost to. This is why I expect a certain amount of conservative play once standings are more gelled.
My bold prediction:
Teams will try and roll other teams if they feel they can get away with it.
If grumblings arise from lineups, etc. pullback will occur and teams will revert to more conservative lineups. In the end, we'll have 2-3 teams dropping from the ladder out of frustration and boredom (pegged at around first week of November). The remaining 4-5 teams will settle into a clear archetype distribution formula and we'll be at square one, with people playing FOTM stuff with little deviation for fear of losing standings traction.
As to the votes causing drama, that's unfortunately going to happen.
The only way for voting to be truly drama free is to point penalize teams for discussing it past a certain vetting/discussion period. As with anything, if there aren't consequences for actions human nature will dictate using the most efficient/political path.
Anyway, GLHF Saturday everyone.
Edit: Just to deviate from this a little, sports teams have set roles and rosters.
Just to take hockey since I'm most familiar with it...you can only play 3 forwards, 2 defense, 1 goalie at a time on the ice. Now, how those players behave/act comes down to individual creativity of course, but I don't think anyone finds set line-ups odd. Amusingly, people seem to find set line-ups and ATs in a MMO environment a worrying sign; chalk this off to having so many archetypes and powersets and so on I guess.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
We don't need to take a re-vote. I stated initially that if any Captains would like to change their votes then send me a p.m. No one has. You changing your vote creates a tie of 4v4 which would still not change the outcome . That is the same outcome of the limiting healers vote.