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Johnnykat, it's been pointed out to you now by three different people how you are in the wrong here but you seem to have difficulty thinking that's possible... the more you keep challenging it the sillier you will feel when you finally see it. Work from the premise that you have made a mistake and go read it again. |
Originally Posted by Johnnykat
You state my name and then comment - how is this misunderstood? I truncated the quote because this is my response about what you stated directed at me - hence it was superflous and tldr to add the rest. Now, if you are saying "Johnnykat, I agree with you in that Durakken's comments should be about...". But that is not how it read to me.
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
If you meant something else, my apologies.
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Fair enough, apology accepted.
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
I can relate to rebufing misinformation and absurd statements - nothing in my commentary was either.
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
To imply my argument that art education should be considered in order to help provide a proper critique as absurd...is in my opinion insulting to not just myself, but to pretty much every art major out there.
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Should art education be considered. Yes of course, I said I'd listen to both opinions and decide for myself.
Should the opinion of someone be automatically considered superlative over joe-average (I don't care for that term {what defines average in terms of artistic savvy anyway?}
I'm just replying with it because you used it) just because they have some formal training the other lacks. No
Do you get to make that call? No, that is up to the individual artist.
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And that is where the problem lies! A big misunderstanding because a word should have been added to make the sentence less likely to be misunderstood. |
Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
@Durakken I agree with BW (despite him using a female as his current avatar BW is definitely a he btw... check out his livestream here) and WITH Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art, imagining yourself as an editor rejecting his piece and telling him to start over or not be hired has nothing to do with constructive criticism and does not help him improve the piece at all. It's moot speculation.
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Take out "(despite him using a female as his current avatar BW is definitely a he btw... check out his livestream here)" and read the sentence without it..."@Durakken I agree with BW and Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art,..."
Now, keep the sentence as it was written and add the word "with" after the second parenthesis..."@Durakken I agree with BW (despite him using a female as his current avatar BW is definitely a he btw... check out his livestream here) and WITH Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art,..."
By adding the word "with" before Johnnykat's name, it makes the sentence very clear that the comment is still being directed to Durakken and not at Johnnykat.
It is just a simple misunderstanding. Now put your pistols away and go back to your corrals.
~*~VexXxa~*~
The City Scoop Art Correspondent/Writer "ART IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER"//"Don't hate because VexXxa is HOT and you're NOT." - JOHNNYKAT
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Originally Posted by VexXxa
And that is where the problem lies! A big misunderstanding because a word should have been added to make the sentence less likely to be misunderstood.
Take out "(despite him using a female as his current avatar BW is definitely a he btw... check out his livestream here)" and read the sentence without it..."@Durakken I agree with BW and Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art,..." Now, keep the sentence as it was written and add the word "with" after the second parenthesis..."@Durakken I agree with BW (despite him using a female as his current avatar BW is definitely a he btw... check out his livestream here) and WITH Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art,..." By adding the word "with" before Johnnykat's name, it makes the sentence very clear that the comment is still being directed to Durakken and not at Johnnykat. It is just a simple misunderstanding. Now put your pistols away and go back to your corrals. |
Thanks for trying to clarify if for him VexXxa (you are the 4th person to make the effort).
I appreciate what you're saying but no that word should not be added at all.
Using "with" twice is literally redundant. Think about if you were
agreeing with 10 people... would you say the word "with" 10x?
"I agree with BW and with Jonnykat"
Is an unnecessary redundancy.
"I agree with BW and Johnnykat"
Is the correct usage and reads just fine.
What makes it abundantly clear the statement is directed at Durakken
is the fact that I started it with the words "@Durakken"...
...which is of course part of what he chose to cut out when he truncated my post.
He actually caused his own misunderstanding of my words here and honestly he is the only one not getting it.
P.S. I've been cooped up in mah corralz like all day n' stuffz drawin' and workin' on custom computers. I'z not ready to go back in!
But I am ready to leave this thread (I hear LJ is having a contest
) lol someone PM me when there's actually some art that needs critiquifyin. ™ 
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Heya, FrozenDeath! Hope you don't mind the opinion of someone who wandered in from off the street.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
 Here's something I worked on last night as part of my Livestream. Keep in mind it's a wip. I'm establishing greyscale values which will converted to color. |
So, to shoot straight off the cuff of the bat, I'll say that I'm wondering if you have any particular requests for criticism on this piece. Since it's a WIP, I feel that most criticisms will simply fall far off the mark (The mark would be "useful criticism") if the person giving it isn't careful. Also, I haven't read much past page 2, although I skimmed a bit. I hope you still might find something relevant here.
It seems that only the existing linework should be scrutinized, as that is the least likely aspect to receive drastic editing in the near future. Even so, I'm probably going to be misinterpreting some things or covering what you've already reworked. I apologize in advance.
In order from top to bottom, then:
- The horn to our left is set at a lower angle than the horn to our right. Yet it (The horn to our left) should be the horn that's closer to a straight-towards-the-viewer angle, shouldn't it? The horn to our right should be the one that looks as if it's turned further away. Also, the horn to our right looks as if it's set into the top of her head, which doesn't quite match the horn-to-our-left's "set more into the side of her head" look. Still, it's pretty damn close. I would just adjust the angles of one of the horns (Depending on which horn you like the most where it is right now), and slop some more hair over the horn to our right to help change where it appears to be entering her head.
- This one's just a suggestion. It might be quite off. Anyway, I suggest having the hair closest her neck (In the ponytail) slopping in front of that bunched hood/cape back there before trailing up and over the back edge. It depends on the ponytail, I suppose. Some would not do that.
- The fabric stretched along the underside of her bust is notably more taut than the same fabric going along the top. So, the cloth looks loose and asymmetrical along the top of her boobs. That's not unrealistic, but it may not be the desired intent, either. The biggest problem is simply that the top line is asymmetrical, riding higher further on the boob to our right. Now, sadly, it is time to stop talking about boobs.
- Her left glove (The glove to our right) doesn't reach to the elbow like her right glove does. Furthermore, the white band on it is wider than (Or at least as wide as) the white bands on her right glove -- and it should be foreshortened, compared to them. The curve of the band could also be exaggerated further. Keep in mind that there are two entire other bands on that glove that connect THAT white band to the back of her hand.
- This last critique is awkward, because mostly I feel like it's a complaint about how the trenchcoats in-game wrap awkwardly from front torso to hips (Sad necessity though it is). I don't know if THIS is a trenchcoat, but whatever it is, I haven't seen a design in real life that has so little fabric under the armpits that the coat is forced to naturally sweep behind the back at mid-torso. And it does look like it naturally hangs that way, because it isn't being pulled against her body at any point lower than her armpit. But I have to assume it's being bunched up and pulled away from her front because it's not hanging behind her back on her RIGHT side.
So. I submit this for your consideration. As an aside, your artwork is very nice stuff; I enjoy it.
Assisace--
Thanks for the feedback. A lot of things kind of ended up the way they are because I'm still figuring out the overall design. The top/bodysuit thing she's wearing originally had straps up the sides that I later took out, the coat is supposed to be more of a hoodie but doesn't really read clearly, etc.
I'll be taking your points into consideration as I revise, I'm definitely seeing more issues with the sketch.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
I think I'll be back in here again later today with help on a model sheet for a fully robotic armored type character. So NOT what I do. I specifically took on the challenge to get out of my comfort zone and all, but will need people to bounce this sucker off of =)
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Once I removed the long run-on inside your parenthesis which read to me as some fragmented thought about BW's avatar BEFORE addressing me, I do now understand more clearly what you were trying to say. Maybe finish one thought before trying to shove it all into one comment/sentence would be my suggestion.|
Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
Thanks for trying to clarify if for him VexXxa (you are the 4th person to make the effort). I appreciate what you're saying but no that word should not be added at all. Using "with" twice is literally redundant. Think about if you were agreeing with 10 people... would you say the word "with" 10x? ... |
Yes, 4 other people offered what your "intention" might be or what they "think" you meant, but no one said definitely "this is what CR meant". I'll rack it up to being late and I was tired in trying to decipher what you intended. I'll definitely try to watch more closely what you are writing as your zeal for commenting on every single aspect of something someone (especially myself) says seems to cause you to say too much at once in one single sentence/thought.
In regards to the average-joe, weekend warrior, etc. type definition. It's just that, someone with some average/base knowledge. Sometimes enough to know the essentials/fundamentals which is great, but other times enough to make that person dangerous in regards to sounding convincing but ultimately misleading (or worse insulting). Sure art is a visual thing and I have learned it is pretty subjective, so it can be a real challenge to convince the average person the merits of a critique by someone who actually has some level of training.
For example, can I change the oil in my car or offer some simple advice on how to jump start a dead battery? - sure I can. Could I talk at length about diagnosing a problem with a car engine based on sound alone - yes, I "could" because I am familiar with a few sounds that I know its direct correlation to a mechanical problem. However, I will be the first to admit me diagnosing someone elses problems because I may have had a similar one doesn't come anywhere close to an actual trained/educated auto mechanic. So with that said, should an art critique be automatically considered superlative from an art major over the average-joe that may have some experience - my answer is yes. Can that trained person be wrong - totally, but the chances are less likely than the untrained average-joe, weekend warrior type. Hence, the whole reason for higher levels of education - be it a trade school or college. I don't think you are trying to argue the idea of higher education as unnecessary, but maybe you are?
Ultimately, I would tentatively agree (which I said before) these boards probably don't require an art education for the type of critique that would suffice here. However as an art major reading through a lengthy critical commentary from someone that doesn't have any academic background in the subject, it leads me to believe that "w'oh" is this level of commentary appropriate? If you take art that seriously enough to comment that critically about other peoples work, but not enough to seek real training in it yourself, then it seems kind of hypocritical to comment that much or to comment about formal art education being unnecessary to critique here.
Globals: Johnnykat & Johnnykat2
http://johnnykat.deviantart.com/
I added the "believe" to my explanation of what CR said because I think it arrogant to state that I know what is going on in someone elses head is all... I think his words were quite clear.
I would comment on his use of parenthesis and whether it was a run on sentence of not but since I have no advanced degree in English I am not qualified to do so...
(yeah, I know that's snarky but I mean it at least 90% humorously...)
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I'll just say, I understand what you are saying Caemgen. |
Originally Posted by Caemgen
I added the "believe" to my explanation of what CR said because I think it arrogant to state that I know what is going on in someone elses head is all... I think his words were quite clear.
I would comment on his use of parenthesis and whether it was a run on sentence of not but since I have no advanced degree in English I am not qualified to do so... (yeah, I know that's snarky but I mean it at least 90% humorously...) |
Globals: Johnnykat & Johnnykat2
http://johnnykat.deviantart.com/
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Pop! I'm in the thread!|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Nympho
(...and on a sidenote...I'm enjoying the content so far. Two thumbs up...but I'm still waiting for Suichiro or Deebs to pop in).
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While I love to stir the pot, this section of the forums has really started to come into it's own lately. I don't need to add anything for dramah to sprout up on it's own now, so I can tune my attentions to other more important things, like shooting zombies in New Orleans or watching hot redheads travel the realms in a little blue box. I'm proud of you art forum. You finally grew up. *sniff*
PS: needs moar ribbinz.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
Johnnykat, you've been told several times now by several different people in several different ways.
It's demonstrably evident and you are not fooling anyone.
You know it, I know it and it's painfully obvious to everyone who's
bothered to read this far. Yet you still cannot say it.
You sir, have a problem.
Oh well, we tried. *shrug* I'm not going to be losing
any sleep over it and there are better uses for my time.
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Originally Posted by Suichiro
PS: needs moar ribbinz.
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I prefer my ribbons wrapped in a catgirl 
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Hmmm. I acknowledged I misread it. I acknowledged why I misread it. I suggested ways to correct a possible misread by not shoving multiple thoughts into one sentence with a long fragment inside parenthesizes.|
Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
Johnnykat, you've been told several times now by several different people in several different ways.
It's demonstrably evident and you are not fooling anyone. You know it, I know it and it's painfully obvious to everyone who's bothered to read this far. Yet you still cannot say it. You sir, have a problem. Oh well, we tried. *shrug* I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it and there are better uses for my time. |
What am I not saying?
What are you not understanding from my response?
Stating I "have a problem" is pretty inflammatory - is that the type of commentary it will come down to for future critiques or commentary when someone challenges/defends their points from your first volley of criticism?
You are focusing so hard on my misunderstanding of one of your comments. Is this your way of covering the fact that you can't debate the issue of educated criticism vs a hobby/weekend-warrior/average-joe criticism? See what I did here? You didn't like "average-joe" critic terminology, so I gave you "weekend-warrior" critic previously. And now I gave you "hobby critic". Either way, each one was a constructive way to describe the typical critique one may find here. It was not just going below the belt and stating "you got a problem."
Yet, you cover up my original argument about educated vs hobby (or pick a new term that you are comfortable with and I will use) with focusing on my misinterpretation of "one" of your comments in "one" of your posts.
I have NO problem discussing the merits of education and their importance in providing a strong foundation for advancing all aspects of one's artistic skills or any skill for that matter. And I have NO problem admitting I may have misread something - it does happens (obviously). I do and will defend myself when I feel someone takes that mistake and tries to champion it as a way to discredit me. Life is full of mistakes and they are usually the best ways to learn and move on - can you really move on from hyper-focusing on this issue?
I know I am moving on, I would rather critique work then discuss over and over again one misunderstood comment.
Globals: Johnnykat & Johnnykat2
http://johnnykat.deviantart.com/
Hola, here's an update. I've made some changes based on feedback from this thread, as well as just continuing to develop the design. Still a wip but closer to a final layout/composition.
Also, I think a positive way to view this thread would be both providing feedback for artists on their work and becoming more educated and adept at what it mean to offer a useful critique.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Wow I have problems too Johnnykat, so does everyone here. It's not headline news or anything. its not really inflamatory either. If anything CR's words are kinda vague.You on the other hand are being specific and saying he won't respond well to someone challenging or defending their work???? Your basing this on what exactly? Well it really doesn't matter because your words were wrong before you even typed them (impressive!). People have already defended their stuff to him several times recently. I know cuz I'm one of them (which is the only reason i'm bothering to post here) and he said stuff like "Not at all Crestent, I expect back and forth discussion with critique to explain/clarify" and "No worries man, by all means I want to hear your response to my critique, the more I understand what you were trying to accommplish the better I can help" and so on. I don't agree with everthing he says or does (that spellchecking was over the top) but CR is right about one thing. You really don't bother to read his stuff before you post this nonsense.
The image you are trying to paint of him is phony! Anyone bothering to take a quick read through his recent posts outside of this thread would see he has been really courteous and polite and incredibly giving of his time. He welcomes everyone new to the forums and goes out of his way to help other artists and even total strangers. Like the lizard he drew for that Delcious chick when she did't like the way hers came out or the art he is doing for the baby and the guy with cancer.
Plus how much free art has he given away to people here? 100 pieces? More? I tried counting them for ***** and giggles but gave up after I realized my stubble had grown into a ZZtop beard. Meanwhile all I see you doing is being a nuisance and trying to egg him on to debate you over trivial ****. quit wasting his time.
"can you really move on from hyper-focusing on this issue?" He wasn't hyper-focusing and he was only one of many pointing out the obvious. Besides (yet again)if you bothered to actually read his post before responding you would know he already has moved on. Before you.
Funny.
Lol can we talk about art here peeps? Pleeeeeaaaaazzze?
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Hey we got almost like... 20% on topic. That's gotta be pretty good for this sort of thread =P
I like the changes that you made to the piece, FD. Her forward arm might still be losing a lot of tension. If the fingers on that raised hand were more splayed again or tensed, I think it would do a better job of keeping the triangular centers of interest you have. With it straight, its kind of becoming one with the arm, and its leading my eye languidly down and off the page.
My critique is that while the ribbons are done nicely, the ball needs some work to make me believe it's made up of 2D filaments. Also, needs moar bow. Because you can't have ribbons without bows. :3
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
FD - Liking this second piece better, just works better for me for whatever reason. My one specific comment would also be on the raised hand - I think it needs to either be interacting with the creature more or posed in some kind of magical Ta Da! kind of way or something... My first thought would be to kind of have it cupping/petting the creatures body as it flows through/past the hand.
OK, this next one might be a HAIR off topic... but it is the critical thread and it is art-related! I need help on my essay for my application to transfer to Syracuse University next fall after I get my Associate's this spring. Pretty please with sugar and cherries and boobies on top!
Here's the first draft.
The comments have my thoughts on it thus far. Basically, all the elements are there, but I'm not sure they're put together right...
I'm freaking out over every portion of this application. SU is very very competitive for transfer, but has exactly the illustration program I want to get into. Everything must. Be. PERFECT.
Oh, also, since this essay is for the Common App, its not supposed to pertain to a particular college, as it would be used for any college I'd apply to transfer to.
Also got another piece to be 100% on topic.
For this one, I'm mostly undecided as to background handling. I want to keep it simple, but it should still be forest-ie (with the castle way off in the distance).
Bravely bold Sir Bayani
Rode forth from Camelot.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir Bayani.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Bayani
...
It is Bayani in The Kite Runner!
Okay it is not. Still, the kite was kinda vorpal.
Arc: 379017: Outbroken See all your old friends in the Outbreak Tutorial sequel!
Arc: Coming Soon: The Incarnate Shadow Shard of Fire and Ice Mender Rednem needs you!
Massively.com opinion poll: Please Help Save CoH!
Please make it clear that the castle in the background is only a model (Perhaps a cardboard cutout, that's funniest to me)! Please, please!
That being said, if you've notice I tried to drop it someone else brought it back up and I also left "but some circumstances could be different thus making what i'm saying not true" I don't know whether your working digital or with pen and paper and i don't know how exactly you are working. I know there are tons of tricks out there like graphite paper that makes some points rather hard to comment about so I tend to think that you have only as much skill as i see in the areas i see and be working towards all goals rather than just personal betterment.