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Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
2. You're saying the pose looks unnatural, without knowing what the rest of the drawing looks like. How natural should a devil girl look when she's summoning dark energy from the pit of hell anyway? Her hands are gesturing for the spell...other than that she's standing more or less straight with her elbows dropped to her sides. You're suggesting that you would have this piece redrawn because the pose is bad. Why don't you take a guess at what I'm picturing in my head and then draw it so I can see what you think that my pose would hypothetically resemble if it looked natural.
3. I am a MAN, man. |
#2. Have you even tried what I said, which takes no effort at all other than like second of your time? If you did you'd likely find it to be extremely unnatural and uncomfortable.
There is no situation I can think of that anyone would ever be in that pose other than looking at a picture and seeing if the pose feels natural or not by actually trying to take the pose.
Also there is no possible way I cans do that at the moment as I deconstructed, reconstructed, and am no trying to get all my programs reinstalled... so i have no idea what on my PC works and what doesn't.
#3. So is Superboy ^.^
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Durakken, I don't know what you did wrong, but that pose is easy to do. I had no problems posing in that position...maybe you need to do some stretching before you try it. Or try using your arms and hands instead of your legs and feet. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
There is no situation I can think of that anyone would ever be in that pose other than looking at a picture and seeing if the pose feels natural or not by actually trying to take the pose.
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And remember, BW (FD) said, the character is in the process of summoning dark energy from the pit of hell, so she (the character) is going to have her arms and hands twisting at odd looking angles.
The piece is going to be awesome when he is done with it!
~*~VexXxa~*~
The City Scoop Art Correspondent/Writer "ART IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER"//"Don't hate because VexXxa is HOT and you're NOT." - JOHNNYKAT
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LMAO for real? Not only do I have no problem placing my hands like that, I just successfully did it again while holding a hazelnut latte in the upraised hand. Do you have a degenerative tissue disorder or something?| #2. Have you even tried what I said, which takes no effort at all other than like second of your time? If you did you'd likely find it to be extremely unnatural and uncomfortable. |
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| There is no situation I can think of that anyone would ever be in that pose other than looking at a picture and seeing if the pose feels natural or not by actually trying to take the pose. |
Secondly, there are real martial arts movements that look very close to that in transition. It's not a valid criticism that this sort of thing doesn't look real to you when I've used it to throw people around and disarm weapons. Sorry I don't know else to say.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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Yes... yes I have. Have you ever heard of cheetos... created by a demon I summoned!|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
LMAO for real? Not only do I have no problem placing my hands like that, I just successfully did it again while holding a hazelnut latte in the upraised hand. Do you have a degenerative tissue disorder or something?
Well first of all, this is fantasy. So this part of your critique is holding my visual style within the boundaries of your lack of imagination. Have you summoned demons? Called down fire from the sky? If there's a specific way it has to be done, I'm all ears. |
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| Secondly, there are real martial arts movements that look very close to that in transition. It's not a valid criticism that this sort of thing doesn't look real to you when I've used it to throw people around and disarm weapons. Sorry I don't know else to say. |
@Durakken I agree with BW (despite him using a female as his current avatar BW is definitely a he btw... check out his livestream here) and Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art, imagining yourself as an editor rejecting his piece and telling him to start over or not be hired has nothing to do with constructive criticism and does not help him improve the piece at all. It's moot speculation.
@Jk The above agreeing with you aside, while you could make a true statement that someone needs to have a degree before you will take any critique they give seriously, suggesting that they need "a formal education in some manner of "real" art criticism" to give critique in a non-professional capacity on a videogame forum somewhere is absurd.
This is not a professional art forum, simply conveying what is wrong in an easily understood manner so the artist can fix it and learn from their mistakes is often all that is wanted/needed. I just told Crestent in regards to his ref sheet that the ring finger of the camera right hand is too short and that it should be longer than the index but shorter than the middle finger... it didn't require two degrees and a design shop to do it.
Also...
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while this may have been your experience here,
Originally Posted by Johnnykat
........This last year or so saw some really critical stuff that I know some liked, but a lot were turned off by it........
mine has been exactly the opposite.
A great many people have expressed how much they liked it publicly and in PM's while only a small minority were turned off.
You'll notice there is no shortage of new requests for con/crit both here and on forumites DA pages and I get more requests in PM's/Notes than I can reasonably respond to (I've written up 6 in the just the last few days alone, some are just bullet lists of what's amiss and some full length pro's, con's, first impressions, redlines and recommendations for what the artist should work on going forward) not to mention this thread itself etc etc.
People who are interested in knowing their mistakes and improving their skills, I think, will continue to ask for critique where ever they can get it... pro, amateur or otherwise.
P.S. @Battlewraith: While I understand your frustration here man, speculation on someones physicalQuote:
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Do you have a degenerative tissue disorder or something?
health or disease is no better than him telling you to start over or not be hired for a position you're not applying for.
It's superfluous at best... what say we all try and keep the focus on what is actually being said here about art and stuff relating to critique.
Lol that's not helping buddy. 
I'll try and keep it on track but realistically I will continue to help people when I can in their own threads,
in mine, or through PM's/Notes regardless of the health of this thread.
So... ummm... dibs on 15 pagez n' stuffz.
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Durakken, I know that you are new to our section of the boards, so I am going to suggest that you sit back and watch BW do his magic before you stuff your foot any further down your throat. You will really like how BW's piece turns out when he is done with it. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
... that odd transition type thing that is used in animation but almost never in stills because in stills it never looks right.
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~*~VexXxa~*~
The City Scoop Art Correspondent/Writer "ART IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER"//"Don't hate because VexXxa is HOT and you're NOT." - JOHNNYKAT
Er... he started the thread with the intent of a place to provide critique, and BW participated. Obviously BW doesn't completely agree, but the whole point of the thread is to get that kind of feedback, not posting pictures just to sit back and say "Nice!" We all have our display threads.
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That wasn't speculation Chris, that was a straight up question. If he really can't position his arms like that maybe he does have a physical issue. If that's the case he should take that into account before dismissing the way I posed the figure in such an odd way.
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P.S. @Battlewraith: While I understand your frustration here man, speculation on someones physical health or disease is no better than him telling you to start over or not be hired for a position you're not applying for. It's superfluous at best... what say we all try and keep the focus on the what is actually being said here about art and stuff relating to critique. |
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
I don't mind critique of my work. In fact there are glaring problems with it that have been commented on. But I'm finding his comments on the pose to be simply baseless. At this point, he really needs to find some way to offer up a redline or some other reference to show how he thinks it should be.
The comment about the editor rejecting it--yeah I agree. But why would I submit a wip to an editor? Nonsensical speculation to back up a point.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Looking back at the pose multiple times now, I think the lack of value as of yet on the hands is really what makes it look awkward. The lower hand is super-duper flat, almost painfully so. But it hasn't had any volume applied to it at this stage, so I think its making a weirdness that may not be there.
I haven't had time today, but I'll post an update soon with some of the energy effects in it to see if any of these issues are resolved.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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I took it as joking, and I don't know what the big deal is, but whatever...|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
That wasn't speculation Chris, that was a straight up question. If he really can't position his arms like that maybe he does have a physical issue. If that's the case he should take that into account before dismissing the way I posed the figure in such an odd way.
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I do see that you missed what I said and injected something that I didn't say. I said it's uncomfortable and unnatural, not that I couldn't do it. This makes my case stronger because martial arts, while doing the moves you should be relaxed when you are in that type of position and there is no way one could be relaxed in that position, the way it is in the picture, not in your mind or how you yourself would do it...
But then I often sit ways people think are uncomfortable, so who knows ^.^
As far as the editor comment, depending on your team's make-up, you'd actually present work before it got to the point your adding shading and spent time darkening various arious so... not really moot. Also the reason why i'd say redo it at this stage is you've gone beyond where people can generally make corrections without destroy most of the rest of the work so it's better to just start over than waste the time in fighting with what you already have.
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Eeeeeeeh, being that far makes more of a case NOT to start over, actually. Even moreso on a digital file. Triple so for your editor scenario.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Also the reason why i'd say redo it at this stage is you've gone beyond where people can generally make corrections without destroy most of the rest of the work so it's better to just start over than waste the time in fighting with what you already have.
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Illustrators have INSANE deadlines. Anyone worth their salt has a thousand tricks up their sleeve to fix quickly and efficiently. My favorite watercolor book included an anecdote where the artist finished a piece for a magazine due for delivery the next day... only to drop her brush and make a HUGE blob right in the middle. After the requisite panic, she worked it into her piece, and you'd never know in the finish.
For any piece, I have so many scraps and stages. Even with 100% traditional work, I can go back and then forward again via tracing and transferring my own work. Its far, FAR less work to preserve the good parts with a transfer than to scrap it all.
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It doesn't take any effort for me to put my hands in this position. It's not uncomfortable. And I've used postures like this in martial arts and I didn't have to tense up or anything to do them. At this point it's silly to continue focusing on this--you're objection is noted. I'm moving on.| I do see that you missed what I said and injected something that I didn't say. I said it's uncomfortable and unnatural, not that I couldn't do it. This makes my case stronger because martial arts, while doing the moves you should be relaxed when you are in that type of position and there is no way one could be relaxed in that position, the way it is in the picture, not in your mind or how you yourself would do it... |
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| As far as the editor comment, depending on your team's make-up, you'd actually present work before it got to the point your adding shading and spent time darkening various arious so... not really moot. Also the reason why i'd say redo it at this stage is you've gone beyond where people can generally make corrections without destroy most of the rest of the work so it's better to just start over than waste the time in fighting with what you already have. |
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
The pose does LOOK a little unnatural... but that is only because it looks to be a snapshot of a character in motion, not one that is doing nothing. Her arms are, by the look of it, midway through the motions that would be involved in casting a spell (as he described). If I had any drawing talent at all (and I don't), I would have drawn her in the pose that she would have reached near the END of the motion... just so it looked like something one would be in for more than a moment. But that fact takes NOTHING away from the drawing as it is.
Also, I just posed like that and it is not uncomfortable at all... but I did feel like I should try to complete the motion that I had started to get my arms into that position... Especially after I read that the artist knew about martial arts.
(As far as art goes, the only talent I have is for making images like the one in my sig. No kinda art at all, as far as I'm concerned.)
1/2 of the poses in comics look uncomfortable - but there's a certain margin of belief when dealing with illustrations and characters. If this character is a demon summoner, then I'm guessing theywould be able to comfortably position their hands in ways I might not. If Spiderman is a wallcrawler, then I'm guessing he could do whatever Mcfarlane stretched him into doing.
FD, did you photo reference this at all? if so, perhaps you could show Durakken how this is entirely possible?
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Seriously CR, what is your obsession with me? First of all, I never said anything about me being an editor, about BW having to start over, etc. This was all Durraken's commentary. I said Durakken commenting from the perspective of an editor is not what a critique should be about - ie., I am saying that portion is baseless, moot...too. He (Durakken) if he wants his criticism to be constructive, should base it on providing points for improvements, not to throw out random hypothetical situations about if he/she were an editor blah blah blah.|
Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
...Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art, imagining yourself as an editor rejecting his piece and telling him to start over or not be hired has nothing to do with constructive criticism and does not help him improve the piece at all. It's moot speculation.
@Jk The above agreeing with you aside, while you could make a true statement that someone needs to have a degree before you will take any critique they give seriously, suggesting that they need "a formal education in some manner of "real" art criticism" to give critique in a non-professional capacity on a videogame forum somewhere is absurd. |
Keep in mind, I completely agree with this is a video game forum and the reality of requiring someone to have a true art degree to give a true art critique is pretty flimsy. However, the obvious fact (this thread as a case in point) there are a few people here that take this EXTREMELY serious, some level of training in anatomy, color theory, perspective, historical knowledge of the genre, as well as simple personal interest should be considered over the average-joe opinion. That's not to be demeaning, but there are schools and other forms of education for this subject for a reason.
So, for example, just because someone feels a finger is too long or too short and should be changed. Sure, this is a simple observation and quite possibly that is all that needs to be said. However, have you considered style?...have you considered composition?...have you considered alternative reasons for a specific part of anatomy to be sized differently than another - there could be a social commentary being made here or simply it's just a caricature and that part of the anatomy was intended to be non-photo realistically proportioned. I am just saying, there are levels to a criticism that (if you are formally educated) would be considered before throwing out obvious comparisons to simple photo-realistic proportion.
So, if you have people PM'ing you about proper proportions CR - cool, good for you at gaining some level of recognition on the boards! If your experiences have been different than mine in terms of the negative feedback about overly critical responses - again, kudos to you.
Regardless, I am just glad that finally after the course of over a year of some seriously heated discussions about art criticism in various threads which have resulted in diminished interests by some of the old-timers that this thread has been made to hopefully direct those energies. I would rather see one thread that borderlines trolling on this section than every other art thread being hit by baseless criticisms.
On a side note, I can position my hand that way too BW. If I had anything to add to your existing criticisms, I would say the left hand - the thumb's proximal phalanx seems to be inconsistently proportioned with the rest of the hand. Compared to the fatty pad of the thumb and the distal phalanx, the length of the proximal phalanx seems too short. Possibly if the knuckle was more defined there it may correct that issue.
Globals: Johnnykat & Johnnykat2
http://johnnykat.deviantart.com/
Personally, this I where I go for artistic help
http://www.penciljack.com/forum/forum.php
Lots of Pros on that board that are willing to help.
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Ugh. |
Originally Posted by Johnnykat
Seriously CR, what is your obsession with me? First of all, I never said anything about me being an editor, about BW having to start over, etc. This was all Durraken's commentary. I said Durakken commenting from the perspective of an editor is not what a critique should be about - ie., I am saying that portion is baseless, moot...too. He (Durakken) if he wants his criticism to be constructive, should base it on providing points for improvements, not to throw out random hypothetical situations about if he/she were an editor blah blah blah.
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Seriously Jk read my post again.
If it helps you ignore the part in parenthesis and you should see your mistake. Also you conveniently chopped off the part where I said @Durakken.
Of course I know it wasn't you saying that. The part where I'm talking @ you starts with @Jk. This whole paragraph of yours was unnecessary
if you had paid attention to what I actually said instead of jumping to the silly conclusion that I have some obsession with you.
Despite what you may think Jk it's likely much less than 1% of my over 2,000 posts in these last 10 months have
had anything to do with you. A fraction of a percent is hardly an obsession... it's more like a footnote.
If you haven't realized it yet I rebut lots of misinformation and absurd statements that catch my attention... not just yours.
P.S. in case you missed it I agreed with you in that first paragraph of mine.
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
Keep in mind, I completely agree with this is a video game forum and the reality of requiring someone to have a true art degree to give a true art critique is pretty flimsy. However, the obvious fact (this thread as a case in point) there are a few people here that take this EXTREMELY serious, some level of training in anatomy, color theory, perspective, historical knowledge of the genre, as well as simple personal interest should be considered over the average-joe opinion. That's not to be demeaning, but there are schools and others forms of education for this subject for a reason.
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If you are one of the people that take it EXTREMELY serious that is fine but my point that you are not speaking on a professional forum that requires it still stands. VexXxa once pointed out several flaws in my horse anatomy, she was right and I thanked her for it... I didn't ask her credentials.
As for whether an artist should consider your opinion superlative to joe-average I would say is for the individual artist to decide, not you.
I personally would listen to both and decide for myself what changes are needed... having formal training does not make one immune to error.
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
So, for example, just because someone feels a finger is too long or too short and should be changed. Sure, this is a simple observation and quite possibly that is all that needs to be said. However, have you considered style?...have you considered composition?...have you considered alternative reasons for a specific part of anatomy to be sized differently then another - there could be a social commentary being made here or simply it's just a caricature and that part of the anatomy was intended to be non-photo realistically proportioned. I am just saying, there are levels to a criticism that (if you are formally educated) would be considered before throwing out obvious comparisons to simple photo-realistic proportion.
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
So, if you have people PM'ing you about proper proportions CR - cool, good for you at gaining some level of recognition on the boards! If your experiences have been different then mine in terms of the negative feedback about overly critical responses - again, kudos to you.
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
I would rather see one thread that borderlines trolling on this section then every other art thread being hit by baseless criticisms.
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Good question, depends on how many posts you can view per page based on your settings, but under 12 sounds safe (unfortunately). It may bring back a lot of the old posters back here to the art threads if they knew the perceived negative criticism was being contained to one thread.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Nympho
Any bets how long this threads gonna make it? Over/Under is 12 pages...anyone?
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Globals: Johnnykat & Johnnykat2
http://johnnykat.deviantart.com/
JohnnyKat - I think you need to reread CR's first statement a bit closer...
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I do believe that his intention for the first part is that he agrees with you, and that Durakken shouldnt play editor...| @Durakken I agree with BW (despite him using a female as his current avatar BW is definitely a he btw... check out his livestream here) and Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art, imagining yourself as an editor rejecting his piece and telling him to start over or not be hired has nothing to do with constructive criticism and does not help him improve the piece at all. It's moot speculation. |
Regarding training needed to critique... *shrug* I personally feel anyone can critique but some can do so better than others. Training and knowledge of course help but don't gaurantee anything... And lack of training doesn't mean it won't be helpful... If it's provided in a friendly and helpful manner than all is good - the artist can take or leave what he wants. *shrug*
(Course if someone wants to know on what basis a critique is being made, I see no harm in politely asking what training one has... If I'm unsure of which advice to take it seems obvious to take that of the more, assumed, knowledgeable critic...)
meep, looks like CR covered the first part of this himself while I was posting... nevermind! :P
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You state my name and then comment - how is this misunderstood? I truncated the quote because this is my response about what you stated directed at me - hence it was superflous and tldr to add the rest. Now, if you are saying "Johnnykat, I agree with you in that Durakken's comments should be about...". But that is not how it read to me.|
Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
..."Johnnykat in that your comments should be about the art, imagining yourself as an editor rejecting his piece and telling him to start over or not be hired has nothing to do with constructive criticism and does not help him improve the piece at all. It's moot speculation."...
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If you meant something else, my apologies. I can relate to rebufing misinformation and absurd statements - nothing in my commentary was either. To imply my argument that art education should be considered in order to help provide a proper critique as absurd...is in my opinion insulting to not just myself, but to pretty much every art major out there.
Globals: Johnnykat & Johnnykat2
http://johnnykat.deviantart.com/
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I think Caemgen pointed out where the misunderstanding was, and why your truncated quote didn't show that. Your name was in there, but the following words weren't directed at you.|
Originally Posted by Johnnykat
You state my name and then comment - how is this misunderstood? I truncated the quote because this is my response about what you stated directed at me - hence it was superflous and tldr to add the rest.
If you meant something else, my apologies. I can relate to rebufing misinformation and absurd statements - nothing in my commentary was either. To imply my argument that art education should be considered in order to help provide a proper critique as absurd...is in my opinion insulting to not just myself, but to pretty much every art major out there. |
As far as the art majors, I value critiques not only from my professors, classmates and others in the field, but those who have taken the time to learn more about art as well. They might not hold a full degree, but they actually enrolled in art classes and learned the process and made actual efforts at better understanding.
1. This is a wip. I started it yesterday lol and it's anywhere near finished. I wouldn't show anything like this to an editor so your comment is just completely moot.
2. You're saying the pose looks unnatural, without knowing what the rest of the drawing looks like. How natural should a devil girl look when she's summoning dark energy from the pit of hell anyway? Her hands are gesturing for the spell...other than that she's standing more or less straight with her elbows dropped to her sides. You're suggesting that you would have this piece redrawn because the pose is bad. Why don't you take a guess at what I'm picturing in my head and then draw it so I can see what you think that my pose would hypothetically resemble if it looked natural.
3. I am a MAN, man.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"