Tank vs Brute damage
By
Alef_infinity,
Posted on: 2010-07-30 14:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
A full bar of Fury grants a 200% boost to damage, but I've never seen it actually full; usually around 95-98% and it just stops going up... but for the most part, with enough enemies around, you can keep it up there and basically get a 200% buff.
That said, 66% Fury is 2.0 * 0.67 = 1.33, or a +133% boost to damage. However, this number is not applicable to your question.
Tanker melee damage scale is 0.8 and Brute is 0.75. This means the Brute, at base, needs 0.8 / 0.75 = 1.0667, or +6.67% damage to match the Tanker.
If the Tanker has +29% damage already, plus the +80% from Rage, this effectively gives him a melee damage scale of 0.8 * (1 + 0.29 + 0.8) = 1.672.
In order for the Brute to achieve 1.672 damage, he'll need 1.672 / 0.75 = 2.23, or a +123% boost to damage.
He already has 80% from Rage, so he needs 1.23 - 0.8 = 0.43, or +43% damage from Fury.
If a full bar (100%) of Fury is +200% damage, then +43% damage will come from 0.43 / 2.0 = 0.215, or 21.5% Fury.
So if Tanker damage is...
0.8 * (1 + 0.29 + 0.8) = 1.672
...and Brute damage is...
0.75 * (1 + 2.0 * 0.215 + 0.8) = 1.672
...then you have your answer.
In your experiment, you will need to maintain 21.5% Fury to match the damage of the Tanker (both with Rage going).
.
Let's see... I'll assume 95% damage enhanced for both of them. Did some quick calculations and I'd say you need about 24% Fury in order to match it with that kind of +Damage on the tank.
I'll verify it on paper, though.
X: random attack's base damage scale
F: fury
Tank damage = brute damage
X * (1 + 0.95 + 0.29 + 0.8) * 0.8 = X * (1 + 0.95 + 0.8 + 0.02 * F) * 0.75
3.04 * 0.8 = (2.75 + 0.02 * F) * 0.75
3.04 * 1.067 = 2.75 + 0.02 * F
F = (3.04 * 1.067 - 2.75) / 0.02
F = 24.684, round it up to 25% Fury.
Note: numbers deviate slightly from GuyPerfect's calculations because I assumed you had damage enhanced to the ED cap.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
Correct. Assuming +95% buff from Enhancements for any given power:|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
Note: numbers deviate slightly from GuyPerfect's calculations because I assumed you had damage enhanced to the ED cap.
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Tanker = 0.8 * (1 + 0.29 + 0.8 + 0.95) = 2.432
Brute = 0.75 * (1 + 2.0 * 0.246 + 0.8 + 0.95) = 2.432
You will need to maintain 24.6% Fury (or round up to 25% like DSorrow suggested) to match Tanker damage.
Thanks, that helped alot. Something is wonky in me build in Mids then cause the damage numbers are way too high in the tank build.
Looking again, it looks like Mids thinks I'm double stacking rage, pushing my damage up an additonal 80%, even though it's clearly set to one as the numbers I'm seeing are exactly 80% too high.
Here is the math with the tank double stacking rage.
Tanker = 0.8 * (1 + 0.29 + 1.6 + 0.95) = 3.07
Brute = 0.75 * (1 + 2.0 * 0.67 + 0.8 + 0.95) = 3.07
That also explains why I was thinking I'd need 66/67% fury to equal tank damage.
Thanks for all the help!
That just goes to show ya, though, that even with set bonuses and double Rage, a Brute can out-damage a Tanker without trying all that hard.
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After GR hits, I'll never make another Tank because of this.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
That just goes to show ya, though, that even with set bonuses and double Rage, a Brute can out-damage a Tanker without trying all that hard.
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@Joshua.
Quote:
Do you by chance have a Gaussian's Sync Fire Control: Chance for Build Up IO in an active power on the Tank? If so, it will show in Mids as always being "procced". That could be what is showing the extra 80% damage.
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Originally Posted by Iceboxer
Thanks, that helped alot. Something is wonky in me build in Mids then cause the damage numbers are way too high in the tank build.
Looking again, it looks like Mids thinks I'm double stacking rage, pushing my damage up an additonal 80%, even though it's clearly set to one as the numbers I'm seeing are exactly 80% too high. Here is the math with the tank double stacking rage. Tanker = 0.8 * (1 + 0.29 + 1.6 + 0.95) = 3.07 Brute = 0.75 * (1 + 2.0 * 0.67 + 0.8 + 0.95) = 3.07 That also explains why I was thinking I'd need 66/67% fury to equal tank damage. Thanks for all the help! |
"Life is what happens when you are making other plans"
Quote:
Isn't there also a slider in mids (in the power info window iirc) that lets you set the amount of times rage is stacked? Maybe that's set at 2 or something.
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Originally Posted by Fomsie
Do you by chance have a Gaussian's Sync Fire Control: Chance for Build Up IO in an active power on the Tank? If so, it will show in Mids as always being "procced". That could be what is showing the extra 80% damage.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Maybe that's set at 2 or something.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iceboxer
[...] even though it's clearly set to one [...]
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Quote:
There is, but as was already posted that was not the case(as far as the OP noticed). That is why I mentioned the GSFC: Chance for Build Up IO, since it gives that amount of damage increase.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Isn't there also a slider in mids (in the power info window iirc) that lets you set the amount of times rage is stacked? Maybe that's set at 2 or something.
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"Life is what happens when you are making other plans"
Quote:
Ding, Ding, Ding!! We have a winnah!!|
Originally Posted by Fomsie
Do you by chance have a Gaussian's Sync Fire Control: Chance for Build Up IO in an active power on the Tank? If so, it will show in Mids as always being "procced". That could be what is showing the extra 80% damage.
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Yep, that was it. I should have known that too since I never slot the FF +recharge proc (in mids) because of that.
Thanks again!
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I wouldn't count tanks out just yet.
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Originally Posted by Forefinger_
After GR hits, I'll never make another Tank because of this.
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Quote:
Tankers're more trival to make nigh unkillable than Brutes (it takes less investment). But if you prefer something reasonably tough and with more damage than Tankers get, then Brutes're for you, yeah. I'm actually glad people can more easily follow their preferences once GR hits.|
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
After GR hits, I'll never make another Tank because of this.
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Everyone has different priorities, which is why I don't think either Tankers or Brutes are in real danger.
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Originally Posted by Forefinger_
After GR hits, I'll never make another Tank because of this.
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I think a lot of people will do the same.
the number of quests/tf/avs that actually NEED a tank to hold agro is pretty small.
hell, since i was on an all Troller MoSTF I'd say tankers are pretty much unneeded.
I think part of the beauty of this game is that no AT is needed really. I can easily see teams running a STF (our 'current' hard end-game as an example) w/out a blaster, defender, controller, scrapper or tank, warshade, peacebringer, dom, corr, mm, fingers getting tired, stalker, br00t, zomg u has crabs, or a fort.
The game has a ton of ATs with overlapping abilities. Roll what you want, play it, love it, profit. I think tanks, and defenders, and anything else that will be 'dead' will be just fine once GR hits.
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Thats kinda sad I like tanks
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Originally Posted by Sprite Fire
I think a lot of people will do the same.
the number of quests/tf/avs that actually NEED a tank to hold agro is pretty small. hell, since i was on an all Troller MoSTF I'd say tankers are pretty much unneeded. |
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In my experiences (and I've been on an all Troller STF), a tanker can make things go a little more smoothly/easily. Yeah, one isn't needed. But that's true of any AT. Pretty much all of them have something they can contribute.|
Originally Posted by Sprite Fire
I think a lot of people will do the same.
the number of quests/tf/avs that actually NEED a tank to hold agro is pretty small. hell, since i was on an all Troller MoSTF I'd say tankers are pretty much unneeded. |
I've actually heard it said that tankers and controllers do pretty much some of the same things. I'd have to agree, really--there's a lot of overlap in roles. They both make the team safer. It's no wonder that you didn't feel you needed a tanker on an all control AT team.
We already have controllers and tankers on the same side. Tankers haven't been made obsolete. And brutes tend to need more support (or more heavy IOing out) to stand up to the same degree of insanity that tankers can.
That said, I'd gladly run a team without a tanker. Or a controller. Or a brute. Or a dominator. Or any other single AT really. Like Iceboxer said, the ATs overlap that much.
As for which (tankers or brutes) would be better for the team, that depends on the team. Team needs more on the defensive side than offensive? Tankers. More on the offensive side than defensive? Brutes. Or you could be fine completely omitting a tanker or brute, or just adding another buffer/debuffer/control character instead. And other ATs (or rather individual builds, really) play into this consideration too.
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One point not taken into account here - using my SD/SS/Pyre tank as an example.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
That just goes to show ya, though, that even with set bonuses and double Rage, a Brute can out-damage a Tanker without trying all that hard.
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A brute will need to build for defence in order to cap defence and approach Tanker levels of survivability, a SD/SS/Pyre is able to build for recharge as defence is easily capped.
Each Brute attack will do more damage due to the higher numbers but the tanks attacks will be coming up more quickly - this will also include any mitigation from the secondary.
A brute will still out damage the tank but it won't be as easy as your numbers suggest.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Even if Brutes are "better" than Tankers, I really can't see the latter becoming unwanted. Why? Well, think of it this way: many players still want "healers"...
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This is how I used to think and I just don't see it as being true anymore. I'd love to be proved wrong tho. A SD/SS/Mu brute (best comparison to your tank), can def cap and still reach 6 second footstomp and 70%+ levels of +recharge (w/out hasten or FF proc). |
Originally Posted by Psiphon
One point not taken into account here - using my SD/SS/Pyre tank as an example.
A brute will need to build for defence in order to cap defence and approach Tanker levels of survivability, a SD/SS/Pyre is able to build for recharge as defence is easily capped. Each Brute attack will do more damage due to the higher numbers but the tanks attacks will be coming up more quickly - this will also include any mitigation from the secondary. A brute will still out damage the tank but it won't be as easy as your numbers suggest. |
How much more recharge can a tank squeeze out? Maybe if you swaped the mako's & ToD's for Crushing Impacts, another 15 or 20%? I just don't see maybe another .5 sec recharge on footstomp (or any other attack) making up for that huge rage buff.
All that said, the tank will still do really good damage and overall still be more surviveable. But not matter how you build em, that huge rage factor is too big to overcome with IOs. It's simply much much much easier in this game to build for damage mitigation (with IOs and pool powers) that it is to build for damage.
The main reason I used will/ss & ss/will in my OP was to get an apples to apples comparison and with apples and apples, I see brutes very easily out damaging tanks. Are there combos out there where the gap is closer, sure. I'm sure if you put a dm/stone br00t up against a sd/ss tank it would be much much closer, but then again, the brutes damage mitigation would be closer too.
I dunno, for me, after looking at those numbers, apples for apples, a brute easily outdamages a tank, as it should.
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Could you post a build please, I'd be interested in seeing how this can be done?
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Originally Posted by Iceboxer
This is how I used to think and I just don't see it as being true anymore. I'd love to be proved wrong tho. A SD/SS/Mu brute (best comparison to your tank), can def cap and still reach 6 second footstomp and 70%+ levels of +recharge (w/out hasten or FF proc).
How much more recharge can a tank squeeze out? Maybe if you swaped the mako's & ToD's for Crushing Impacts, another 15 or 20%? I just don't see maybe another .5 sec recharge on footstomp (or any other attack) making up for that huge rage buff. All that said, the tank will still do really good damage and overall still be more surviveable. But not matter how you build em, that huge rage factor is too big to overcome with IOs. It's simply much much much easier in this game to build for damage mitigation (with IOs and pool powers) that it is to build for damage. The main reason I used will/ss & ss/will in my OP was to get an apples to apples comparison and with apples and apples, I see brutes very easily out damaging tanks. Are there combos out there where the gap is closer, sure. I'm sure if you put a dm/stone br00t up against a sd/ss tank it would be much much closer, but then again, the brutes damage mitigation would be closer too. I dunno, for me, after looking at those numbers, apples for apples, a brute easily outdamages a tank, as it should. |
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Something like this....
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1404;700;1400;HEX;|
|78DA9D93594F534114C7E7D27B5BBAD156A88552440A74A15 25B4091A2314124C1D|
|004D2A00690DAC0D0569BD2B49744DFFC003EB93EF9E6FAEC 96E837708D7E1D97EB|
|59A64D8C6FDEB4FFDF9D3367CE3977CE4CFEC6A247885B678 5E63E572BB55AC585E|
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|58920BC6485DE47B0FB091FC141530E1A3BD8D9A17B168CBA 4D8CC2C8A612DBF604|
|4D5508AE32A34AF05C635C277C82B8868A6B5CA4803DEB8C3 5C238A883C3EA8E781|
|79AFC09C2A1246382D097221C065F27C7D39C5CE724D7F919 32B979C6E6CE71CD7E|
|C589D9BF1982285E4E0AA4C07630F978B9F025A8F6380C03B 46B961178CC55BCE02|
|A9E309E12FA9F319E13BE401DBDB49596E81DA1400E881D54 45072F68D890F032A1|
|1B66423C6384EED0FAF05D42E41E21769F30F980907D4888C 2AA01B5A903294A116|
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|D423338C2C639A30324548820EAB24C37354D8D11C639E719 A30728661C123BEC1E|
|E44D5A2E80F9A18FDC9F8C5F84D18B31878E4E0AC4265E3EA 83C7B9EB31EE7A8C8F|
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|AB9A7A729F9F119C609C6496EC12CE13B24CCB0BB960951C2 EC14D51AD13B17147E|
|F8CD2BFF585675751BC1A2916549EF5C50CBE9873BC3B3FFF BBCF3B4533AD75CA00|
|59475944B28975136503651B650B6518A28D6FBCE6ADF29AC 6B0E2587328F1284FA|
|C46DF474B841DC281E142F4A0F8A0FC58FD28B1246798462F D019280F4AA|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
keep in mind damage cap for brute is a lot higher than a tanker. if i have 50 fulcrum shifts on me i'll still do the same damage on footstomp of around 242 dmg i believe...but a brute will do a lot more...the only way a tanker can do more dmg is with resistance debuffs. :P
Quote:
Ah, oops. And then to think I read it twice.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
*Refrains from snarky comment, but the observation remains nonetheless*
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carry on.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Hey all - I'm hoping you all can verify what mids is telling me or correct it.
I've got a will/ss tank and a ss/will brute and I'm trying to figure out at what level of fury the brute needs to do more damage than the tank.
Few notes...
The tank has a 29% damage buff from IOs. The brute 0%.
Assume one application of rage each.
Mids is telling me I need to maintain 66% fury for a 132% buff to equal the damage the tank does (212% total buff including rage).
I want to verify this number so as I run around on this guy, I can start to make mental notes about when he is doing more damage than the tank, and when he does less.
On the other hand, I have no idea if Mids calculates fury correctly so any help would be appreciated.