There are some heavily optimized DM builds that can keep up with FM, but otherwise yes FM is the strongest st set as it is intended to be as it lacks mitigation and its bonus is extra damage.
The downside to playing with fire is that you can get burnt...but so can your enemies. It has no mitigation.
Fire/Fire does a lot of damage. FE gives it the ability to do tremendous burst damage. However, Shield has a persistent damage buff that over time eclipses the damage boost of FE and even surpasses FE+blazing auras contribution against a single target.
That said, Castle made mention of maybe taking a look at Fire Armor in the same thread that he made mention of reducing Shield Charge. It is possible that once he is done Fire Armor will be returned to being the best offensive armor set. It might be worth waiting for a bit to see if anything changes soon.
Slightly off topic, but was Broad Sword tops for DPS at some point? Must have been years ago if so, before I started paying attention to numbers. So far as I know, Broad Sword's great DPS is just a rumor that won't go away, similar to it's rumored horrible endurance consumption. Ditto Martial Arts top DPS, though I don't remember ever hearing that one proposed before. Martial Arts has been at the bottom end of Scrapper primaries since I started paying attention. Not in an unplayable way, but just at the bottom.
Anyway, yeah, Fiery Melee has excellent DPS, arguably the top in most situations. On top of that, it also has excellent burst damage and very good AoE. Fiery Melee is simply excels at damage output. The down side, as Frosticus indicates, is that it has no mitigation, so you'd better get enough out of your secondary to make you happy. It also has no utility powers. Fiery Melee is nothing but damage in large amounts. (Well, and the required level 12 Confront.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I think BS was favored for its burst damage, Katana has always been better at sustained DPS.
As for Fire Melee, yeah I tend to favor it over Dark Melee when paired with /Shield, just because FM doesn't kill its own SD/AAO fodder like DM does
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When did you stop playing? A month ago? Because BS wasnt ever close to being king other than wayyyy back when I first started playing. Maybe I2 or I3? And even then, if im not mistaken, I think the mechanics of the game were somewhat different then. |
Originally Posted by SPiNE
It's been a month since I've been back to CoH. I remember back then Broad Sword and Martial Arts Scrappers were arguably the best single-target DPS. Broad Sword because of its high numbers and Martial Arts because it has a couple powers that crit more often and smashing damage isn't as resisted as lethal damage.
Now that Fiery Melee is available for Scrappers, it seems as if this is the new DPS king. |
Back on topic....as mentioned above, yes, fire holds the crown for ST damage. The tradeoff(if considered one when played on an AT where the sole object is to kill stuff like crazy) is that all you get is more damage as a bonus, go figure.
Flux Tempest-Electric Melee/Willpower
Zaunte's Rage-Claws/Invulnerability
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While back in the 5 or 6 slotted damage days it was that good because of the burst crits and the amount of damage they where hitting and you did not worry so much about the perfect attack chains because the damage output was freaking ridiculous
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Originally Posted by Werner
Slightly off topic, but was Broad Sword tops for DPS at some point? Must have been years ago if so, before I started paying attention to numbers. So far as I know, Broad Sword's great DPS is just a rumor that won't go away, similar to it's rumored horrible endurance consumption. Ditto Martial Arts top DPS, though I don't remember ever hearing that one proposed before. Martial Arts has been at the bottom end of Scrapper primaries since I started paying attention. Not in an unplayable way, but just at the bottom.
Anyway, yeah, Fiery Melee has excellent DPS, arguably the top in most situations. On top of that, it also has excellent burst damage and very good AoE. Fiery Melee is simply excels at damage output. The down side, as Frosticus indicates, is that it has no mitigation, so you'd better get enough out of your secondary to make you happy. It also has no utility powers. Fiery Melee is nothing but damage in large amounts. (Well, and the required level 12 Confront.) |
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
* waves *
Hi, I still have my Broadsword scrapper from original-issue days, and it's still my main. ;D And in fact the reason why I took Broadsword was because of that crazy burst damage. I wanted a solo character that could take on the ridiculously-regenning AVs of the time, and that meant the 'sword. Martial Arts has always been kind of terrible (which didn't stop it being popular; oh god I remember teaming with MA scrappers who would knockback EVERY DAMN ENEMY), Dark Melee was never popular for some reason (endurance? neg eng?), Spines was the AOE set, Katana missed out on damage of BS but got speed (and a lot of asianophiles), and.. I don't remember why Claws sucked, but nobody except for Wolverine knockoffs used Claws. =p
BS might not be top damage anymore, but does have a very nice melee defense buff and a knockdown and a knock up in its two top attacks, so it ain't nothin'.
So, as said, if all you're looking for is straight damage.. no, I don't think anything beats Fiery Melee.
I wonder why scraps didn't get Ice Melee or Icy Assault, though?
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Back in those days we also didn't realize that animation time has a substantial effect on your overall damage dealing capabilities so people only really looked at the big fancy numbers flying over their enemies' heads. BS's only real niche has, and likely always will be, burst damage, though it's only burst from individual hits: you can actually get more damage in roughly the same short time period with other sets thanks to having higher DPA variance amongst attacks. What's worse is that Kat actually maintains higher AoE damage (that free DoT in Lotus Drops isn't in Whirling Sword, Flashing Steel's lower cycle time and animation time consumption allows it to completely outshine Slice) along with better ST damage. I can't really think of a numerical reason to play BS rather than Kat unless you're specifically going for a Shield build (and "can be used with Shield" shouldn't be a reason for a set to be weaker).
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Originally Posted by Hejtmane
While back in the 5 or 6 slotted damage days it was that good because of the burst crits and the amount of damage they where hitting and you did not worry so much about the perfect attack chains because the damage output was freaking ridiculous
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Well could be along the lines of I want to use a sword...|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Back in those days we also didn't realize that animation time has a substantial effect on your overall damage dealing capabilities so people only really looked at the big fancy numbers flying over their enemies' heads. BS's only real niche has, and likely always will be, burst damage, though it's only burst from individual hits: you can actually get more damage in roughly the same short time period with other sets thanks to having higher DPA variance amongst attacks. What's worse is that Kat actually maintains higher AoE damage (that free DoT in Lotus Drops isn't in Whirling Sword, Flashing Steel's lower cycle time and animation time consumption allows it to completely outshine Slice) along with better ST damage. I can't really think of a numerical reason to play BS rather than Kat unless you're specifically going for a Shield build (and "can be used with Shield" shouldn't be a reason for a set to be weaker).
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PvP = Broadsword
PvE = Katana
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Except that Katana is actually better at PvP because it can generate better burst within a single BU cycle (and get more out of procs). The "big burst" that many players talk about with BS doesn't really have much of an effect on gameplay because it's really just based on single attacks hitting hard. Neither PvP nor PvE is about a single attack hitting hard, so the fact that Katana can generate better performance over the short term, the long term, and against multiple enemies means that BS isn't really a PvP set either: it's simply outclassed by Kat in everything except for the aesthetic of "smash".|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well could be along the lines of I want to use a sword...
PvP = Broadsword PvE = Katana |
If/when MA gets fixed, I expect for there to be some impetus for the devs to look at BS compared to Kat. Personally, I think that it would work for the set to be more of a "defensive" version of Kat by providing some or all of the attacks in the set with some chances for KU/KD (to go along with the "smash"). Kat could keep the speed and greater offense while BS gets to be a bit safer and toss enemies around a bit.
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Uh.. Whirling Sword has DoT. Whirling Sword has always had DoT. Like, forever.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
that free DoT in Lotus Drops isn't in Whirling Sword
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Even so, Umbral is still correct in saying Kat has better AoE due to slice recharging slower than flashing steel. And for some reason, Kat's The Lotus Drops is more damaging than Whirling Sword.
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Originally Posted by nunix
Uh.. Whirling Sword has DoT. Whirling Sword has always had DoT. Like, forever.
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It would have been better to say that the same DoT isn't in both attacks, and that Kat gets its better DoT damage for free. Whirling Sword gets 3 ticks of scale .1 damage, and The Lotus Drops gets 3 ticks of scale .12 damage.|
Originally Posted by nunix
Uh.. Whirling Sword has DoT. Whirling Sword has always had DoT. Like, forever.
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Even further, though they have the same recharge times, Whirling Sword has a much longer animation time (2.904 sec compared to 1.98). It's going to have a second faster cycle time no matter what recharge assumptions you're using. So Whirling Sword is universally worse than The Lotus Drops: it deals less damage and cycles slower.
Poor BS
Threads like this always depress me about my first level 50 Scrapper (BS/Regen). That, and remembering when Instant Healing was a toggle.
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Lets not forget the stealth nerfs to IH and Integration that Jack denied until people started throwing around the numbers. Man that was when 90% of the scrappers where regen or perma unstoppable inv with 90% resistances amd Dark Armor was played by like two people because their armor did not stack. |
Originally Posted by Demon Keeper
Threads like this always depress me about my first level 50 Scrapper (BS/Regen). That, and remembering when Instant Healing was a toggle.
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The root times and animation times did not match up and everything else in between
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Maybe for fiteclub pvp, but not the rest of pvp.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Except that Katana is actually better at PvP because it can generate better burst within a single BU cycle (and get more out of procs). The "big burst" that many players talk about with BS doesn't really have much of an effect on gameplay because it's really just based on single attacks hitting hard. Neither PvP nor PvE is about a single attack hitting hard, so the fact that Katana can generate better performance over the short term, the long term, and against multiple enemies means that BS isn't really a PvP set either: it's simply outclassed by Kat in everything except for the aesthetic of "smash".
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People you PvP with stand still and let you work through an attack chain? Serious question. I tend to think you make sense much of the time, but no PvP I'm aware of values sustained DPS over 1-2 shot bursts.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Except that Katana is actually better at PvP because it can generate better burst within a single BU cycle (and get more out of procs). The "big burst" that many players talk about with BS doesn't really have much of an effect on gameplay because it's really just based on single attacks hitting hard. Neither PvP nor PvE is about a single attack hitting hard, so the fact that Katana can generate better performance over the short term, the long term, and against multiple enemies means that BS isn't really a PvP set either: it's simply outclassed by Kat in everything except for the aesthetic of "smash".
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Katana sucks major webbos at PvP, if you're dueling all the time sure its good, but in zone PvP good luck charlie getting someone to stand still.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Except that Katana is actually better at PvP because it can generate better burst within a single BU cycle (and get more out of procs). The "big burst" that many players talk about with BS doesn't really have much of an effect on gameplay because it's really just based on single attacks hitting hard. Neither PvP nor PvE is about a single attack hitting hard, so the fact that Katana can generate better performance over the short term, the long term, and against multiple enemies means that BS isn't really a PvP set either: it's simply outclassed by Kat in everything except for the aesthetic of "smash".
If/when MA gets fixed, I expect for there to be some impetus for the devs to look at BS compared to Kat. Personally, I think that it would work for the set to be more of a "defensive" version of Kat by providing some or all of the attacks in the set with some chances for KU/KD (to go along with the "smash"). Kat could keep the speed and greater offense while BS gets to be a bit safer and toss enemies around a bit. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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WOA. Rule #1 about the fight club is that you NEVER talk about the fight club outside of the fight club.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Maybe for fiteclub pvp, but not the rest of pvp.
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Dam you are right. I should have said. "only if you are tru warrier"
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Originally Posted by SPiNE
WOA. Rule #1 about the fight club is that you NEVER talk about the fight club outside of the fight club.
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That's right.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Dam you are right. I should have said. "only if you are tru warrier"
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When considering primary only, DB and Katana also have the potential to match or exceed FM in high end builds due to their better use of procs. Both can slot two -res procs (with 3 chances to fire) and two purple damage procs (with 3 chances to fire) for their high end chains vs FM being able to only slot one purple proc.
FM has the edge when considering DPS in a non-optimized build since it is far easier to achieve high numbers with FM than the other two.
A real question mark is how much impact the Lethal damage of those two sets affect its damage output vs. Fire/Smashing of FM.
Proud member of the Twilight Avengers
Shunya~DB/Electric Scrapper capable of 262 DPS pre Incarnate
Mindtrix~Ill/Cold Controller soloed Lusca pre Incarnate
Psyanara~Night Widow/Fortunata 300+ DPS w/ Reactive
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It is VERY significant difference. Lethal is by far the most resisted damage type in the game. Post 30's, nearly all mobs have some lethal resistance. Fire on the other hand, is one of the least resisted damage types in the game, even less so then Psi, and Toxic(I'd have to double check Toxic, but last I checked, many mobs actually have resist to it).|
Originally Posted by Shadowsylph
A real question mark is how much impact the Lethal damage of those two sets affect its damage output vs. Fire/Smashing of FM. |
For anyone who is curious, here is the link to the damage resistance table created by Culex. It's very informative of just how resisted Lethal really is.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115749
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His name was Robert Parr
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Originally Posted by SPiNE
WOA. Rule #1 about the fight club is that you NEVER talk about the fight club outside of the fight club.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
It's been a month since I've been back to CoH. I remember back then Broad Sword and Martial Arts Scrappers were arguably the best single-target DPS. Broad Sword because of its high numbers and Martial Arts because it has a couple powers that crit more often and smashing damage isn't as resisted as lethal damage.
Now that Fiery Melee is available for Scrappers, it seems as if this is the new DPS king.
From Mid's I can already see that the numbers are huge for Fiery Melee and it has faster recharge as well. Not only that, Fire/Smash damage isn't as commonly resisted as Lethal or Smash damage.
Is there a downside to playing a Fiery Melee Scrapper? On paper, it seems like it pretty much out-performs all other sets in terms of single-target damage. Then there's also the possibility of going Fiery Aura for Fiery Embrace as a second BU. As for AoE, Fire Sword Circle isn't that bad either; it probably is just behind Spines only because Spines has Spine Burst + Throw Spines.