Are Dual Pistols as weak as I think they are?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-22 15:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Once you get the regen aura, you'll be healing back the damage you take during redraw.|
Originally Posted by Ossuary
I just got my DP/Pain Corr to 21 last night, and I have to say I enjoy the set overall. The only issue I have is stated above. Whenever I use my PBAoE Heal, I put my guns up. Why? All I do is stick my hands out to the side. There is no need for me to put my weapons away. Especially harsh since I solo so much and I need the heal, but by the time it goes off and I pull out the guns again, I've taken all the damage I just cured right back.
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Redraw sucks for EVERY set that causes it. Maybe one day BAB will revisit the issue and get redraw removed.
Be well, people of CoH.
Well, I hit 22, took Swap Ammo, and SO'ed up. While the damage output still feels underwhelming (my /Archery Defender feels much more powerful offensively), the powerset does feel much less craptacular now. Hopefully it keeps getting better from here.
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I think a lot more of the complaints are to do with the fact that it "feels" clunky (due to long redraw/animation times) and the item that is supposed to be the big draw of the set (Swap Ammo) isn't really that great (Toxic Ammo is the most useful simply because no other blast set has that). Balance-wise it is ok but suffers somewhat due to the lack of Aim and the longish animation times on key powers.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
In other words, they aren't happy with it because it wasn't designed to be better then every other set hands down, but to be balanced.
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My DP/Kin is great fun, and I will probably end up playing it a lot at 50. HoB + FS really is fun - it does respectable damage and fun to watch!
However, don't expect it to be the new Fire Blast numbers-wise. (Or Ice or Rad or [Insert any other Blast set])
And..
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Please can we call i20 "Redraw"? |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Once you get the regen aura, you'll be healing back the damage you take during redraw.
Redraw sucks for EVERY set that causes it. Maybe one day BAB will revisit the issue and get redraw removed. |
@Fail (Used to be @Tux) and @Tuxedo Infinitus Defiant/Freedom/Champion
Favourite Toons: Prosper [Ill/Rad] Controller :: Infinitus [Fire/Elec] Blaster :: Pocket Dynamo [Fire/Shield] Scr :: Fast [Cold/Sonic] Def ::
Inspire [Plant/Storm] Controller :: Quality - SS/Fire Brute :: Double Down [DP/Kin] Corr :: Pwnz [Fire/Cold] Corr :: Fail [Fire/Son] Corr
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I think redraw is the main reason I don't use my Broadsword/regen scrapper more.
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Originally Posted by _Tux__EU
Please can we call i20 "Redraw"?
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Culex's resistance guide
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My problem is that it look stupid. I want to shoot people, not dance...
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I think the problem people have with Dual Pistols, is that it's an average set, and not top tier, and that it's a new set.
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I haven't seen it mentioned here, but part of the "meh" is that the much ballyhooed Swap Ammo only changes 30% of the damage done to the specified type. 70% Lethal/30% Fire is still going to be pretty plain jane against mobs with high lethal resist. Ditto for ice, you get a slow.... but it's not really related to the passive slow in Ice Blast. Chem rounds give you -Recharge which is of dubious use at best. Even the KD in the all lethal ammo is unreliable, unlike buckshot in AR.
The devs seem to overrate the value of optional secondary effects. Dual Blades has the same handicap. 2 of the combos start with the crappy minor damage first attack :/. Coupled with the fact that every DB combo includes an attack that has no secondary effect at all (4 total attacks w/o any secondary effect).... who cares if you can choose? It seems to serve me better to do a little research before I create a character, and have a reliable secondary effect throughout my toons career.
All told the set would be good as an AoE blast set. Except we already have a couple of those. Archerys nuke is better (ranged/animation). Fire is superior damage, and better AoE options, and doesn't have to contend with redraw. Radiation is a solid AoE set if your willing to play in melee and deal with KB with no redraw.
I love the animations, even though they are a bit lengthy. By all means if that is a primary factor for the character, enjoy. If you were hoping to get min/max numbers out of the toon, you might want to look elsewhere.
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As I recall, the redraw doesn't affect the attack animation. It shaves the redraw time off the animation.
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Originally Posted by Ossuary
I just got my DP/Pain Corr to 21 last night, and I have to say I enjoy the set overall. The only issue I have is stated above. Whenever I use my PBAoE Heal, I put my guns up. Why? All I do is stick my hands out to the side. There is no need for me to put my weapons away. Especially harsh since I solo so much and I need the heal, but by the time it goes off and I pull out the guns again, I've taken all the damage I just cured right back.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Er, cryo rounds do -recharge, not chem rounds. Chem rounds do -damage.|
Originally Posted by prev1
I haven't seen it mentioned here, but part of the "meh" is that the much ballyhooed Swap Ammo only changes 30% of the damage done to the specified type. 70% Lethal/30% Fire is still going to be pretty plain jane against mobs with high lethal resist. Ditto for ice, you get a slow.... but it's not really related to the passive slow in Ice Blast. Chem rounds give you -Recharge which is of dubious use at best. Even the KD in the all lethal ammo is unreliable, unlike buckshot in AR.
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[quote]The devs seem to overrate the value of optional secondary effects. Dual Blades has the same handicap. 2 of the combos start with the crappy minor damage first attack :/. Coupled with the fact that every DB combo includes an attack that has no secondary effect at all (4 total attacks w/o any secondary effect).... who cares if you can choose? It seems to serve me better to do a little research before I create a character, and have a reliable secondary effect throughout my toons career.
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Dual blades does have a very reliable secondary effect. You can chose if you want to do combos, or not. You chose which combos you use as well. Slot up some accurcy, and you can be sure you'll land said combos. Quote:
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Pistols: 1.00 seconds activation time
Dual Wield: 1.67 seconds activation time
Empty Clips: 2.50 seconds activation time
Bullet Rain: 2.40 seconds activation time
Suppressive fire: 1.67 seconds activation time
Executioner's Shot: 2.57 seconds activation time
Piercing Rounds: 2.5 seconds activation time
Hail of Bullets: 0.00 seconds activation time
O.o What the... Let's look at this then. It does the damage over 3.26 seconds, but the activation time is that fast? Interesting, can't wait to try this power out myself.
None of them are as painfully long as forumites would have people believe. Other sets have attacks with far longer animations that aren't complained about. Yes, Archery has really fast animations. Actually, a while back they tweaked archery to the point it has possibly the fastest animations. Fast enough that the snipe can reliably be used in combat while soloing, without having high defense or slotting it for interrupt reduction
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[QUOTE=Madam_Enigma;3058523]Er, cryo rounds do -recharge, not chem rounds. Chem rounds do -damage.
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Hail of bullets has a 0 second activation time so that the +defence it gives you kicks in at the start, it still roots you for ages.|
The devs seem to overrate the value of optional secondary effects. Dual Blades has the same handicap. 2 of the combos start with the crappy minor damage first attack :/. Coupled with the fact that every DB combo includes an attack that has no secondary effect at all (4 total attacks w/o any secondary effect).... who cares if you can choose? It seems to serve me better to do a little research before I create a character, and have a reliable secondary effect throughout my toons career. I'm curious just how long the apparantly painfully long animations are. So I looked them up. Pistols: 1.00 seconds activation time Dual Wield: 1.67 seconds activation time Empty Clips: 2.50 seconds activation time Bullet Rain: 2.40 seconds activation time Suppressive fire: 1.67 seconds activation time Executioner's Shot: 2.57 seconds activation time Piercing Rounds: 2.5 seconds activation time Hail of Bullets: 0.00 seconds activation time O.o What the... Let's look at this then. It does the damage over 3.26 seconds, but the activation time is that fast? Interesting, can't wait to try this power out myself. None of them are as painfully long as forumites would have people believe. Other sets have attacks with far longer animations that aren't complained about. Yes, Archery has really fast animations. Actually, a while back they tweaked archery to the point it has possibly the fastest animations. Fast enough that the snipe can reliably be used in combat while soloing, without having high defense or slotting it for interrupt reduction |
Compare/contrast - blaster values
Blaze 1 second cast, 132.63 +80% chance of 70.4
Power burst 2 seconds, 132.63 + knockback
Bitter ice blast 1.07 secs, 142.64 -rech, -spd, -to-hit
Exec's shot 2.57 secs, 132.63 +ammo bonus special effect
Cosmic burst 2.07 secs, 132.63 +mag 3 stun
Shout 2.67 secs, 132.63 -13% dam res
Blazing arrow 1.83 secs, 122.62 + 40 DoT (longer range, not exact equivalent)
This is the sort of reason DP feels slow, only sonic comes out slightly worse on this comparison, and many come out a lot better. DP also lacks aim and a snipe, so ST burst damage is sadly lacking. It is however a decent AoE set.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Oops, you're right it is -dam on chem rounds. Happen to know the numbers/duration on that?
Did I miss a patch note where the Hail of Bullets animation changed to being interruptable but completed damage anyhow?
For Corruptors, it's only -10% to the damage the target will do for 8s. (no idea what it is for Defs & Blasters since I'm too lazy to change away from my DP/Rad Corr 
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I'd say for many players, just standing in place, and pointing the pistol, would be boring. |
Originally Posted by PhroX
My problem is that it look stupid. I want to shoot people, not dance...
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Though with that said, I'm perfectly okay with BABs adding in an animation that has you stand their, lift both pistols and look as if you're taking your time to aim, and then firing. I just think it would get little use, because people who say stuff like "I'm doing nothing for that whole animation".
I love the animations. It's a blast set I dont feel like I'm just standing around repeating the same animation for many of the attacks. It looks like you're dodging alot of the times.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yeah, that would be silly. You can't really do a "simple" set of animations with the current animation times. Ah well...|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'd say for many players, just standing in place, and pointing the pistol, would be boring.
Though with that said, I'm perfectly okay with BABs adding in an animation that has you stand their, lift both pistols and look as if you're taking your time to aim, and then firing. I just think it would get little use, because people who say stuff like "I'm doing nothing for that whole animation". |
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| I love the animations. It's a blast set I dont feel like I'm just standing around repeating the same animation for many of the attacks. It looks like you're dodging alot of the times. |
Oh, and don't get me started on Bullet Rain aka Attack of the Killer Bees....
Defenders get -12.5% damage with chem rounds. Since the debuff can stack up pretty fast, it's actually rather impressive in practice, especially if your primary is DR or healing heavy.
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It used to do that. They changed it sometime ago (I think when dual blades came out) as part of making animation times for weapon sets shorter. Basically the old animations for weapon sets had a time equal to weapon draw + animation. The removed the weapon draw time from the animation times to shorten them but now you have the redraw penalty.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
As I recall, the redraw doesn't affect the attack animation. It shaves the redraw time off the animation.
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Dear Mr./Ms. Clobber Folks with -2000 Rep Instead of Replying In-Thread:
I invite you to prove I don't know what I'm talking about. The animation time numbers are not disputed and plain to see. Do you have some other numbers to contradict them? I claim Dual Pistols is an average set at best. What evidence do you have that Dual Pistols is, contrary to my claim, significantly better than average?
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Heh, see, I love them all |
Originally Posted by PhroX
Yeah, that would be silly. You can't really do a "simple" set of animations with the current animation times. Ah well...
I don't mind some movement, but the spinning around annoys me. I never got the obsession with Equilibrium. To me, the epitome of dual pistols is Chow Yun Fat in John Woo films (A Better Tomorrow etc). And while there is a lot of movement in those films, it's not so much "on the spot" in the way the current DP animations are. Unfortunately, there's not really any other way to have movement in game, leaping to the side guns blazing doesn't work with the way CoH does powers. Oh, and don't get me started on Bullet Rain aka Attack of the Killer Bees.... |
And once I figure out how to replicate WP for a Blaster, Defender or Corr (and be happy with the build). I'll be set!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by PhroX
I don't mind some movement, but the spinning around annoys me. I never got the obsession with Equilibrium. To me, the epitome of dual pistols is Chow Yun Fat in John Woo films (A Better Tomorrow etc). And while there is a lot of movement in those films, it's not so much "on the spot" in the way the current DP animations are. Unfortunately, there's not really any other way to have movement in game, leaping to the side guns blazing doesn't work with the way CoH does powers. Oh, and don't get me started on Bullet Rain aka Attack of the Killer Bees.... |
I think twirling around like a ballerina (even with guns) is lame, and unless I was being paid at least five bucks, I would never ever do this. It's a pity that the dual pistols animations are based on gun-fu disco movies and not on a real macho he-man flick like Last Man Standing. Now that was good stuff. Especially that part where he shoots that one guy.
Larry: Owen, what the hell did you do to my wife?
Owen: Well I don't want to say on the phone - all I can tell you is that I killed her last night.
Best animation is Executioner shot by far. The rest are to matrixesque for me.
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Suppressive fire is fine; although, I still find it really funny that laying down suppressive fire involves firing fewer bullets than just shooting them does. 30 bullets at his face does nothing, but one at his feet scares the crap out of him.
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Originally Posted by Roleplayer606
Best animation is Executioner shot by far. The rest are to matrixesque for me.
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I have not tried Dual Pistol. I came here to read what is good/bad about the set as there is no guide under Corruptor forum yet.
After reading first page... I think the Ammo part is pretty sweet.
Those that pick Dual Pistol are probably not going for the "superb dps" set like Fire Blast. They want cool animations.. much like Dual Blade to some degree.
While I think I am a semi mix/maxer, I think it is a good idea to separate Dual Pistol from Ice/Fire Blast. It gives me a reason to play Dual Pistol because if I just want a typical dps set, I'll just go with Fire or Ice or Sonic. Just like some people want a real tier 3 attack for Electricity Blast but I pick Electricity specifically for VS. Whether VS is under-performing or not is another topic. I think they kinda screw my VS with "no recharge" in pets. T_T Oh well, this is another topic.
The only problem I can see is that Dual Pistol may not perform as well on newbies because they may not know which monster has weaker resistance to what. For example, Mu enemies have naturally high resistance to all elemental so you should change to Lethal Ammo to increase your damage output.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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While I wasn't the one that -repped you (not that it matters now that rep has been removed), I can honestly tell you that DP isn't massively subpar and "at best" average. As a whole, the set competes for middling in ST damage, but the set is actually quite good at AoE damage (especially when augmented by incendiary ammo).|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Dear Mr./Ms. Clobber Folks with -2000 Rep Instead of Replying In-Thread:
I invite you to prove I don't know what I'm talking about. The animation time numbers are not disputed and plain to see. Do you have some other numbers to contradict them? I claim Dual Pistols is an average set at best. What evidence do you have that Dual Pistols is, contrary to my claim, significantly better than average? |
The set is, as a whole, a utility set rather than a specialist, which is why so many people decry its usefulness. The set has a native hold unlike most other blast sets (Suppressive Fire + non-Standard Ammo), nice-but-not-top-tier AoE performance, a nice team damage multiplication mechanism (Piercing Rounds + Standard Ammo), and the potential for some very potent debuffage (Chem rounds) when stacked properly.
The problem that most people have with the set (from a Blaster standpoint) is that it's not really designed to be an exceptional blasting set: the primary usefulness of the set as a whole is in the secondary effects, which Blasters get substantially less out of compared to Defenders and Corruptors. Defenders and Corruptors get a lot more out of the set than Blasters do so many Blasters see the set as being subpar when it's really just in the middle of performance for them.
Maybe a better starting point for the discussion would be to figure out which set Dual Pistols is closest to, then make a comparison.
Hmmm, Energy Blast? If it's Eng, DP's looking pretty good in comparison. The side effects play nicer in teams, a beanbag instead of a knockback bolt, and a crashless nuke.
Or is it really Archery? Then DP has 30% better damage typing, and a little bit of resistance debuff, at the cost of double recharge on its Tier 9 and slightly slower animations. Might be an even trade.
Perhaps it's Fire Blast? If so, things don't look so good for DP. 70% worse damage typing at the gain of a crashless nuke and a beanbag. Worth it if you're farming critters without lethal resists, otherwise, lacking oomph.
Am I missing something that changes the balance later, or is the Dual Pistols set really as wimpy as it seems to be?
Lots of Lethal Damage that's a common resistance, but Swap Ammo adds in other damage.
No Aim or Snipe power, but lots of AoE.
I made my DP Blaster Natural origin. Lower damage because she's someone who's good with a set of guns. In a world of Bullet Proof guns are a tough choice of weapon. The character does very well with that in mind.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU