Are Dual Pistols as weak as I think they are?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-22 15:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I agree with everything Umbral has said. Basically, if you go into Dual Pistols looking for top of the line DPS you're going to be disappointed. It's a flexible debuff set. The damage is not spectacular but not terrible either. If the damage was as good as Fire or Archery we'd really be in trouble as neither set has a real secondary effect ("extra accuracy" for Archery is there but kind of lame). The ability to turn knockback on and off at will is a pretty fair advantage in itself.
Also, we need to be careful when talking about -Resistance and DPS. A lot of folks seem to be saying the set is poor because the -Resistance doesn't justify the added DPS. The problem is that -Resistance isn't the same as +Damage. It boosts your damage and the damage of everyone else who is attacking too. If you score -25% resistance, as a Defender will with the two AoEs combined, it is the same as boosting the damage of the entire team by that amount for those enemies. In other words, almost the same as casting Accelerate Metabolism (on a same level enemy) or using Radiation's -resist toggle. The reason the Swap Ammo power is useful is sometimes its better to boost the entire team's damage, and other times better to do direct damage from fire.
The only secondary effect I don't think is particularly useful is the cryo/-recharge one. There are a rare few sets with middling -Recharge that need the extra boost to floor enemies. But that's part of what is nice about Swap Ammo. You get to pick what works for you.
Overall the people who will benefit most from Dual Pistols are the ones who float between solo and teams, PUG a lot, and try lots of varied content. It's not a set for everyone, but then neither is any set.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by theUnforgivn
I just got back into the game and rolled a Kinetics/DP Defender to see how it would work out, and while I have only played the character up to level 21 I must say that I have been quite underwhelmed by the Pistols set's offensive capabilities. Particularly troubling are the long attack animations that root me in place for several seconds to have the same or less damage payoff as similar attacks from other sets that have cast times half as long.
Am I missing something that changes the balance later, or is the Dual Pistols set really as wimpy as it seems to be? |
they do seem to be oddly underpowered on sets like defenders and the likes but seem ok on blasters and the likes. But weak is all a relative term. The strongest man in the world is a weakling compared to most wild animals pound for pound.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
Quote:
What 2 AoEs are you getting -res from?
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Also, we need to be careful when talking about -Resistance and DPS. A lot of folks seem to be saying the set is poor because the -Resistance doesn't justify the added DPS. The problem is that -Resistance isn't the same as +Damage. It boosts your damage and the damage of everyone else who is attacking too. If you score -25% resistance, as a Defender will with the two AoEs combined
|
I just don't feel the same way about the ability to give up fire DoT for a small damage debuff. It's nice. It's not "Who needs Aim when I can do this" nice. (See: Tenebrous Tentacles.)
But I think we're all in agreement, at least, that Dual Pistols is neither the worst nor the best set available to any of the 3 ATs. That's a start. Once they've been available to the full playerbase for a while, and the shiny has worn off, we'll have a little more perspective.
EDIT: Also, the set is definitely high on fun factor. Everyone, myself included, seems to like it.
Quote:
I think the fact that the set is average, is what has turned some people off. I get the feeling they think new sets should be top tier in everything.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
I just don't feel the same way about the ability to give up fire DoT for a small damage debuff. It's nice. It's not "Who needs Aim when I can do this" nice. (See: Tenebrous Tentacles.)
But I think we're all in agreement, at least, that Dual Pistols is neither the worst nor the best set available to any of the 3 ATs. That's a start. Once they've been available to the full playerbase for a while, and the shiny has worn off, we'll have a little more perspective. EDIT: Also, the set is definitely high on fun factor. Everyone, myself included, seems to like it. |
I'm quite happy with Dual Pistols myself. The only thing I wish, was HoB was on the 1 minute recharge versus 2 minutes. But Ive made do.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Have the devs ever commented as to why it has a longer recharge than, say, Rain of Arrows?
Quote:
Except, of course, those min/maxers who rate the fun factor of offensive sets purely by the size of the orange numbers floating up on as many targets as possible. Sadly, judging by threads like this, there are lots of such people on the forum.
|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
EDIT: Also, the set is definitely high on fun factor. Everyone, myself included, seems to like it.
|
Simple answer, Yes. It's pretty weak, but it is also fun as heck.
Do not skip swap ammo. The cold bullets help. The fire bullets help. The rad bullets are meh. But you need the secondary effects from the different weapon types to offset the lack of pure punch.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
Quote:
I don't think RoA was intended to be the power of comparison for HoB. Full Auto is actually substantially closer: when I gave the devs the numbers for the damage that HoB currently uses, I used FA as the basis rather than RoA (largely because RoA was way too much damage, considered). The longer recharge was required because HoB has a larger area of effect (17% larger, not to mention that it's also more useful considering it's a radial AoE rather than a cone), a higher target cap (16 compared to 10), and has multiple secondary effects (rolling DoT, KD, -rech, or -dam whereas FA deals only damage).
|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
Have the devs ever commented as to why it has a longer recharge than, say, Rain of Arrows?
|
Quote:
Yeah, it's tragic that there are people who are concerned with how a set plays instead of how it looks.
|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Except, of course, those min/maxers who rate the fun factor of offensive sets purely by the size of the orange numbers floating up on as many targets as possible. Sadly, judging by threads like this, there are lots of such people on the forum.
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
No, they don't. They don't provide a damage advantage over incendiary ammo and the -rech is next to useless against NPCs.|
Originally Posted by Vega
The cold bullets help.
|
Quote:
| The rad bullets are meh. |
There you problem right there, you playing a defenders, they mosty use for Support, not Damage. Also you got to learn how to use the right type of Ammo, There are Fire, Ice and Toxic Round, each with it's own benefits. Everyone think new Sets should be over powers, other hoping it be only good for Pvp and other just want Some other set to farming with. This is a fun power Set and it's not to bad to have on a team.
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by rsclark
What 2 AoEs are you getting -res from?
|
Oops. Massive error on my part. You're right--it's actually -Damage to the enemy. I got it twisted around in my head because of Piercing Rounds, which is -20% Resistance to a small cone of enemies.
Quote:
Does -damage amplify -Resistance?
|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Against hard targets, chem ammo is ridiculously strong, especially when stacked with other sources of -dam. It's possible for a pair of DP defenders to completely floor an AVs outgoing damage while using nothing other than their DP powers with Chem ammo because of how -dam works.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
No, but I believe the reverse is true (-res amplifies -dam) because -dam is resisted by the final resistance of a target (resistance after all +res and -res is applied).
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Does -damage amplify -Resistance?
|
Quote:
That must be what I was thinking of, but reversed it. Thank you.
|
Originally Posted by Umbral
No, but I believe the reverse is true (-res amplifies -dam) because -dam is resisted by the final resistance of a target (resistance after all +res and -res is applied).
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
The closest comparisons that you can honestly make with Dual Pistols are with Energy Blast and with Sonic Blast. Energy Blast and Dual Pistols have similar levels of AoE and ST damage (DP leads a bit on the AoE because of the crashless nuke but ST is roughly equivalent when you compare all of the ammo types), while Sonic Blast and Dual Pistols are both sets that generate better returns when used by the nominal support ATs.