My thoughts on things like the in set rez: Rise of the Phoenix is amazing. It allows you to maintain aggro even though you're up against something that will defeat you..
Remember, tanking is not about survival. It's about holding aggro and keeping the team safe. RotP is an excellent tool for that.
At least in my mind, the tanker who is the last man standing has failed.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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What he said!
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My thoughts on things like the in set rez: Rise of the Phoenix is amazing. It allows you to maintain aggro even though you're up against something that will defeat you..
Remember, tanking is not about survival. It's about holding aggro and keeping the team safe. RotP is an excellent tool for that. At least in my mind, the tanker who is the last man standing has failed. |
You can keep holding aggro even if you drop. You should know when you're about to die, and be ready to fire off RoTP the second you do die. Everything that was on you is now stunned and not fighting the mob, and you have plenty of time to retoggle and get aggro back (if anything is still standing when the stun, etc. wears off).
Like I say in my guide, you can hold off on getting Rise of the Phoenix (at 32 I'm usually trying to cram in Tough or Weave on an already tight build), but it is a useful thing to grab at some point. I rarely use it, but I am glad when it is there.
I really put the power in the same category as Healing Flames. You're still a Tanker and tough with those powers, because they just can't keep you down. You heal back large amounts of damage every twenty seconds or so, and even if they drop you, you can pop back in a fiery flash.
By the way, what's up with the title? No need to off tank with Fiery Aura! Get in the brunt of it! 
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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This is exactly why I love my katana/fire so much. I will often try to beat the odds at no true penalty to myself. I'm never dead for long, or dead that often. And when things really go sour, I use Self Destruction and THEN RotP and it's as good as nuked.
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Originally Posted by AnElfCalledMack
I've been lurking on these boards for a while, and my Fire/Fire Tanker just hit level 32. Against all advice, I took Rise of the Phoenix, and I've found it to be a really useful power in a variety of situations, at least for a pre-50 build in common IOs. Solo, it's been extremely useful against Endurance drains - I can just drop, Rise, and get half a blue bar and a 17-second mag 4 stun (one Stun Duration slotted). In small teams, it's the difference between a wipe and a minor nuisance, and with a crash-or-crash-through build like Fire/Fire, bad things do happen.
The big edge I've seen, though, is in large groups. I don't know if it's just luck, but I often seem to wind up with another Tanker in the group on big teams, and they're invariably much better at the survival side of tanking. As such, I wind up going for damage and picking up stray aggro. However, with Rise, I've picked up another sideline - suicide tanking. Sometimes, things go wrong. If this means someone is going to faceplant, it isn't going to get better. With Rise, I can volunteerfor the dirty jobs, then get back up at no loss to the team. I take a little bit of debt, but it's better than wiping, and usually gone by the end of the same fight. I think the best example of this happened in a sewer map. As sometimes happens, there was a second spawn standing directly above the boss. The main tank, a Shield/Mace, didn't think he could handle them both, so I dived into the top spwan while the other seven took on the bottom. I lasted all of twenty seconds, but in that time, the rest of the team had the other fight under control, so when Rise sent half of the top spawn down to them at half health and stunned for fifteen seconds, they were able to deal with it, and I was able to hold the other half. In short, I can see how, for someone trying to hold aggro in a high-resistance build, Rise of the Phoenix is a poor choice, but it can also enable some crazy plans - especially if someone happens to have Vengeance. |
The Story of a Petless MM with a dream
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This entire post should receive some kind of award for being both hysterical and fantastic.
Well done. |
I'll add a 'good for you', since you're having fun with it, which, is the point after all.
As I've stated from the beginning of time I personally loath the weak nature of a self-rez on a Tanker, but last time I checked I haven't gotten that changed yet.
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I've gotta call this out. How is "You have to kill me twice!" a statement of weak nature?
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Originally Posted by Acemace
As I've stated from the beginning of time I personally loath the weak nature of a self-rez on a Tanker
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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I been saying this for years. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
At least in my mind, the tanker who is the last man standing has failed.
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However you can't play other peoples characters, what other people do may require you to go beyond aggro cap to help them; or it requires you to physically play their characters so that their character attacks at the right moment for once; or make sure a safe distance is kept as the safest place is not behind the tank, literally behind the tank practically up his butt sharing all the aoe like some people have thought in my experience. As hard as you can try to turn the cones away they keep jumping behind you.
Truth is being the last man standing is nothing to brag about. Either the team didn't respect the enemy and game mechanics enough or the tanker might of been fixated on some minion whilst the team were taking the brunt.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
RotP Phoenix concept, debt badges, phoenix on them, defeat comes from being down and completely out. It's like a heal from negative health.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Agreed. And with the AOE, taunt, and aggro limits, there is only so much a tanker can hold before the mobs start looking for something else to beat on.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I been saying this for years.
However you can't play other peoples characters, what other people do may require you to go beyond aggro cap to help them; or it requires you to physically play their characters so that their character attacks at the right moment for once; or make sure a safe distance is kept as the safest place is not behind the tank, literally behind the tank practically up his butt sharing all the aoe like some people have thought in my experience. As hard as you can try to turn the cones away they keep jumping behind you. Truth is being the last man standing is nothing to brag about. Either the team didn't respect the enemy and game mechanics enough or the tanker might of been fixated on some minion whilst the team were taking the brunt. |
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This is why I picked up [Salt Crystals] on my Dark Armor tank. I have been able to jump to the new mob, put it to sleep, jump back and never lose the aggro. As soon as the first group is manageable, I jump to the sleeping group again and start picking up the new aggro.
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Originally Posted by Theron
Agreed. And with the AOE, taunt, and aggro limits, there is only so much a tanker can hold before the mobs start looking for something else to beat on.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I am very tempted with the Earth Mastery for my Dark Tanker, I had a dark brute long before my tanker so the tanker is in no rush but eventually!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
my fire/ is still too low to have rise yet, but I have several teammates who enjoy fallout and vengeance. So the occasional volunteer suicide is actually a pretty decent tactic. I was looking at rise as a no-brainer because of that synergy with the people I team up with regularly.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
As far as the off-tanking thing goes, I have Blazing Aura, Fiery Embrace and Build Up, but I still struggle to hold aggro on large teams, especially if there's another Tanker around. It might get better with Fireball, but I'm not all that sure. As such, I wind up off-tanking a lot, and that's where my experience with RotP has come from.
One thing I have taken up, though, is taking the alpha for tank sets without a self-heal. I can't hold up under the sustained damage, they can't always deal with the burst, but by trading off, we get a very efficient system.
I love fire/fire. As soon as it's clear the enemy is too much for you to handle (survive):
1) Fire off everything you can.
2) Activate Self destruct.
3) Activate Rise of the Phoenix.
4) Cue maniacal laughter.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Check my Four Rules for Tanking in my sig: that should help you get aggro and keep it. Though really, if another tank is around, it's fine if you're splitting the aggro. You just don't want it spreading to other people that aren't built to handle it as much.
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Originally Posted by AnElfCalledMack
As far as the off-tanking thing goes, I have Blazing Aura, Fiery Embrace and Build Up, but I still struggle to hold aggro on large teams, especially if there's another Tanker around. It might get better with Fireball, but I'm not all that sure. As such, I wind up off-tanking a lot, and that's where my experience with RotP has come from.
One thing I have taken up, though, is taking the alpha for tank sets without a self-heal. I can't hold up under the sustained damage, they can't always deal with the burst, but by trading off, we get a very efficient system. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I'd read your guide - it's one of the reasons I made a Fire/Fire in the first place - but I solo a fair bit, and I've passed up Taunt to this point. That'd probably be why I'm having aggro problems, wouldn't it?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I've gotta call this out. How is "You have to kill me twice!" a statement of weak nature?
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Ok. First off it's, Raise of the Sphincter.
Now the dead horse, from beta 2004 till now I've so uncommonly teamed with a FA Tanker using RotP even in the heyday of Burners that it's actually a minor surprise to see a -self resurrect devotee- Tank in game, and the few times it's happened I had an odd feeling the individual had a proclivity to underground blood oath societies (likely a Twilight enthusiast).
As OP mentioned ("Against all advice, I took Rise of the Phoenix") very infrequently does anyone in this area of the forums with knowledge of the AT suggest taking RotP as anything more then an afterthought if there's room (usually there isn't) and if it floats your boat.
On the other hand there are players from time to time who will point out how a power like RotP is a useful part of their build and playstyle on their Tank.
That's fine, I just don't want to ever team with them, because I don't enjoy the company of Tankers who need to be defeated to manage aggro ;] (+4 / aggro cap mobs, not -1 Radio missions).
Any other AT including Brutes are welcome to whatever flavor of self-rez the Devs set upon it, but for Tanks, and specifically for a weaker armor like FA, a built in rezzer is often a self fulfilling prophecy if you choose to let it be.
So when it's all boiled down, my biggest issue from the beginning of the CoH Tank, is that this is a lazy design decision for this AT, a class who's one shining attribute is resistance to defeat.
That's my pov, but like I told OP if 'you' have fun with this power and it fits your playstyle, that's what should matter to you.
I love rise of the phoenix! I barely need to use it, but when I do it's always the thing that saves everyone.
My favorite use was against reichsman back when that TF came out. I was doing it with a pickup group and no one had any heals. We had two tanks, me and an ice tank, and we beat reichsman by alternating our tier 9s. I'd tank reichsman till I died, then self rez, and he'd tank reichsman till he needed hibernate. It was pretty fun and hilarious.
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
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Because of the implication that they can kill you even once, which is once more than you should be aiming for.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I've gotta call this out. How is "You have to kill me twice!" a statement of weak nature?
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
I usually dislike self-rez powers because they don't do much more that an inspiration couldn't have done. Why would you take a power that plans you die? Especially when you consider that if you died, and got up, the most you could really plan to do is die again or hope you can run far enough.
Rise of the Phoenix, and sometimes Soul Transfer are the exceptions as they don't just prop you back up to die again, the entirely change the tide of battle in your favor, and just after you die is usually when you'd like that too happen. With how little debt means these days they only continue to be more attractive choices.
My step father has Rise of the Pheonix on his blaster which has allowed some rather fun tactics. "It's not like I wasn't going to die anyway, might as well make it useful."
I like vengeance when I team with him.
I took it and love it on two of my three FAs. While I have enough experience, inspirations, IOs to make it seldom used. I love it when I do need it.
As mentioned it turns an impending teamwipe into a walk in the park.
It is a great IO mule. And it has a pretty gee whiz cool animation.
Like many other powers in the game it is situational. The bulk of the time it is a wasted pick but every so often it can salvage a situation where almost nothing else could.
While I understand the standard tanker angst re: a power that requires you to die first, I really like to have that rez nuke as an option.
I would love to see a better option for tanking a +4 dark ring mistress :P
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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Hold on there. No one ever said they needed to be defeated to manage aggro. This is just one extra tool in the arsenal. My Dark Armor tank took Soul Transfer, and as you can see in my video, I have no problems handling +4/x8 Malta without it. I don't care how tough the FA tank is, I'd still suggest fitting Rise of the Phoenix in the build.|
Originally Posted by Acemace
That's fine, I just don't want to ever team with them, because I don't enjoy the company of Tankers who need to be defeated to manage aggro ;] (+4 / aggro cap mobs, not -1 Radio missions).
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I have outlasted and outaggroed every type of tanker in the game. I also have to be killed twice before anything can hurt my team.
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Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Because of the implication that they can kill you even once, which is once more than you should be aiming for.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Hey, that's great to hear! |
Originally Posted by AnElfCalledMack
I'd read your guide - it's one of the reasons I made a Fire/Fire in the first place - but I solo a fair bit, and I've passed up Taunt to this point. That'd probably be why I'm having aggro problems, wouldn't it?
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It took a lot of effort to write up, so I'm glad it's helping people out. Anyway, you can manage aggro without taunt, but it is harder (especially against an AV). Jumping in first and attacking as many people you can is what you need to do without Taunt (though you still want to do that without Taunt, heh). Taunt does have uses solo, too, so it's nice to have even then when you can fit it into your build.
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Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Because of the implication that they can kill you even once, which is once more than you should be aiming for.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
I usually dislike self-rez powers because they don't do much more that an inspiration couldn't have done. Why would you take a power that plans you die? Especially when you consider that if you died, and got up, the most you could really plan to do is die again or hope you can run far enough.
Rise of the Phoenix, and sometimes Soul Transfer are the exceptions as they don't just prop you back up to die again, the entirely change the tide of battle in your favor, and just after you die is usually when you'd like that too happen. With how little debt means these days they only continue to be more attractive choices. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Some peoples egoes are non existent within their toons. They go for concept they RotP whenever and not care. RotP abuse comes from choosing pace, or playing with anyone and their lack of support, believe me today I thought I saw two of the worst corrupters I could ever imagine. If it's fun, it's fun and if there was one server, one server only then I would have just as much confidence in someone who loved their RotP as much as I could you. There is no need to be defeated to manage aggro.|
Originally Posted by Acemace
Ok. First off it's, Raise of the Sphincter.
Now the dead horse, from beta 2004 till now I've so uncommonly teamed with a FA Tanker using RotP even in the heyday of Burners that it's actually a minor surprise to see a -self resurrect devotee- Tank in game, and the few times it's happened I had an odd feeling the individual had a proclivity to underground blood oath societies (likely a Twilight enthusiast). As OP mentioned ("Against all advice, I took Rise of the Phoenix") very infrequently does anyone in this area of the forums with knowledge of the AT suggest taking RotP as anything more then an afterthought if there's room (usually there isn't) and if it floats your boat. On the other hand there are players from time to time who will point out how a power like RotP is a useful part of their build and playstyle on their Tank. That's fine, I just don't want to ever team with them, because I don't enjoy the company of Tankers who need to be defeated to manage aggro ;] (+4 / aggro cap mobs, not -1 Radio missions). Any other AT including Brutes are welcome to whatever flavor of self-rez the Devs set upon it, but for Tanks, and specifically for a weaker armor like FA, a built in rezzer is often a self fulfilling prophecy if you choose to let it be. So when it's all boiled down, my biggest issue from the beginning of the CoH Tank, is that this is a lazy design decision for this AT, a class who's one shining attribute is resistance to defeat. That's my pov, but like I told OP if 'you' have fun with this power and it fits your playstyle, that's what should matter to you. |
What I will not do is form an opinion on people who take RotP. **** can happen to stonetankers in granite, the ability to get back up intangible long enough to retoggle could be nice. Not worth taking the power through lack of use I know, but concepts are concepts.
The Phoenix is legendary.
You can have a really survivable build with RotP and then still choose not to survive XD.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I've been lurking on these boards for a while, and my Fire/Fire Tanker just hit level 32. Against all advice, I took Rise of the Phoenix, and I've found it to be a really useful power in a variety of situations, at least for a pre-50 build in common IOs. Solo, it's been extremely useful against Endurance drains - I can just drop, Rise, and get half a blue bar and a 17-second mag 4 stun (one Stun Duration slotted). In small teams, it's the difference between a wipe and a minor nuisance, and with a crash-or-crash-through build like Fire/Fire, bad things do happen.
The big edge I've seen, though, is in large groups. I don't know if it's just luck, but I often seem to wind up with another Tanker in the group on big teams, and they're invariably much better at the survival side of tanking. As such, I wind up going for damage and picking up stray aggro. However, with Rise, I've picked up another sideline - suicide tanking. Sometimes, things go wrong. If this means someone is going to faceplant, it isn't going to get better. With Rise, I can volunteerfor the dirty jobs, then get back up at no loss to the team. I take a little bit of debt, but it's better than wiping, and usually gone by the end of the same fight.
I think the best example of this happened in a sewer map. As sometimes happens, there was a second spawn standing directly above the boss. The main tank, a Shield/Mace, didn't think he could handle them both, so I dived into the top spwan while the other seven took on the bottom. I lasted all of twenty seconds, but in that time, the rest of the team had the other fight under control, so when Rise sent half of the top spawn down to them at half health and stunned for fifteen seconds, they were able to deal with it, and I was able to hold the other half.
In short, I can see how, for someone trying to hold aggro in a high-resistance build, Rise of the Phoenix is a poor choice, but it can also enable some crazy plans - especially if someone happens to have Vengeance.