No tank is undefeatable.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Surviving is not tanking. Holding aggro is. A tanker who is the last man standing has failed. |
Originally Posted by Acemace
"Surviving" is the Tankers one big trick.
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When your tank dies, how do you hold aggro?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Surviving is not tanking. Holding aggro is. A tanker who is the last man standing has failed.
When your tank dies, how do you hold aggro? |
Yeah agreed, a teammate who causes team wipes because of lack of experience or limited knowledge of his AT and his groups limits, isn't optimal fun.
But I don't accept your premise that RotP is some sort of panacea to successful Tanking and team management.
"Surviving is not tanking", is a silly proposition.
I think some of you would enjoy coming to one of the monthly Tanker Tuesday events on Champion each 1st Tues of every month (going on 70 months). Good times.
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I'm not talking about someone causing a teamwipe. |
Originally Posted by Acemace
Yeah agreed, a teammate who causes team wipes because of lack of experience or limited knowledge of his AT and his groups limits, isn't optimal fun.
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I'm saying that a tank can have all the survivability in the world and it doesn't do a lick of good if he can't keep aggro off the team.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Just to add my two cents, he wasn't saying it was a panacea, either. Just a way to keep controlling aggro even when you drop, which most Tanker sets do not have.|
Originally Posted by Acemace
But I don't accept your premise that RotP is some sort of panacea to successful Tanking and team management.
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For the earlier comment, well, it takes quite a bit to drop Grey Pilgrim in his tanking build, and even if you do manage it once, you don't manage it twice. He's not out for the count, you just gave him a chance to really put the screws to you.
Don't get me wrong, I know why RoTP can stick in your craw. It used to do that for me, until I realized that I could (and should) look at it in another way. Just my own opinion, of course.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
(shrug)|
Originally Posted by Acemace
Like I've already said it's more a matter of taking and slotting a power you normally would hope you don't have to use. In a tight build that pick and slot(s) could go towards something that's frequently used, in a lot of cases to better effect.
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I disagree. A self-rez is simply one more power that can keep teammates alive.
I take the self-rez in any tank set that has one. On other AT's, I don't see a need for it.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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That is the dumbest thing I think I've read on these forums relating to tanking.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Remember, tanking is not about survival. |
FA and DA, both lack tanker type panic buttons like Unstoppable, or OwtS and SoW which are more like mitigation buildups, or even Hibernate and Granite.
Instead they get the cheesy "Oh, I see you've failed at your job again, here's a shiny light show that'll distract your team from the fact that the baddest solo member of the group just faceplanted", as their tier nines.
How on earth did any of you who swear by fires slef rez manage to play your tank before lvl 32's rotp, you must've been absolutely terrible given your apparent reliance on it.
The reason that a lot of us hate self-rez for a tanker, especially as the big tier nine power, is that the devs seemed to have gotten the idea that it was ok to leave he rest of the set weak because of it.
Temperature Protection, what the hell does that do when the first shield nearly caps fire, nothing, but "Ohh if they're dumb enough not to take tough/weave instead of rotp, it'll rez them after they're definitely going to be defeated".
I prefer not to die in the first place and I play full bore, if you really believe you have to rely on a pretty Must be defeated to use puff power, the tanks who build to survive will without fail be moving on to the next mobs burning and destroying while you're savoring rotp's piffy animation.
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Who said I was relying on the power? |
Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
I prefer not to die in the first place and I play full bore, if you really believe you have to rely on a pretty Must be defeated to use puff power, the tanks who build to survive will without fail be moving on to the next mobs burning and destroying while you're savoring rotp's piffy animation.
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I prefer not to die as well. I play full bore, but sometimes, fecal matter hits the fan. If that ever happens, I have a backup plan.
Can your tanks do the things in my video?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
The fiery aura set may in some (some?) many peoples opinions need a rethink but that could be talk of the rest of the set. Tier 9s aren't by law the defining power except maybe conceptually. I started on Invulns and yes Unstoppable is a nice oh bleep power but there is a crash (and people complain about dying because of it). WPs tier 9 is skippable to some. Granite is god mode for a reason, when you lose the flexibilities of other tankers you need it, what I can do as other tanks makes up for the lack of granite alot of the time.
Doesn't matter what tank ya on full bore is going to be where you are taking all the aggro, the teams healthbars aren't moving, yours is, and there is that thing where if your not near death experiencing ya just aint pushing ya tanky hard enough and it adds to the fun to of come so close and yet been so far. My FA is probably my most frequently dead, but its fun and easily a great xp/timer. Debt rate is met by xp/rate. I should get into good habits with mine though.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
RotP has also a very nice stun effect to it, that even works on AV's.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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Correct. HOWEVER, it IS a part of proper tanking's toolkit.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Surviving is not tanking.
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Quote:
| Holding aggro is. |
Quote:
| A tanker who is the last man standing has failed. |
Quote:
| When your tank dies, how do you hold aggro? |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Way to put words in peoples mouths and then judge them and criticize them for the words you put there.
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Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
How on earth did any of you who swear by fires slef rez manage to play your tank before lvl 32's rotp, you must've been absolutely terrible given your apparent reliance on it.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
It's like this with me, played on tanks what rarely go down, when they did go down, I thought a self res would be nice to help the team, when I came to a tank which offers a self res I take it.
Argue with people over the usefulness of it.
More arguments.
Now comparatively abuse RotP relentlessly.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
With how little Debt effects players of this game now days, I dont see how Rise of the Pheonix shouldnt be taken.Slotted for damage it could cause alot of pain.
Theres plenty of situations where all Tankers fail at surviving....thats right...I said...ALL!
The only Tankers iv ever seen that didnt require a "Pocket Healer" to follow them around like a Igor where FA/ and Elec/, or they where hopped up on a tier 9 to ward off the need for heals.
Theres no reason why Rise of the Pheonix shouldnt be taken.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
The only Tankers iv ever seen that required a "Pocket Healer" to follow them around like a Igor were FA/ and Elec/, or they where hopped up on a tier 9 to ward off the need for heals. |
You haven't played with some of the better tanks then that's a fact, I mean even I got to 50 on a fire tank only dying once during the eden trial, through all the AV arcs and running just as hard and fast as any good team.
This isn't a console were dying is going to be inevitable, there are a lot of players I've teamed with from these forums that play ballz to the wall and very very very rarely get defeated.
The key obviously is not getting in over your head, if you can't anticipate that then take rotp and fill your tray with rezors, and you'll be giving tanks a bad reputation by playing that way.
You owe alot to the teams you've played with. I've always said that when things go right for me. I probably rotp more times solo than teamed. I like to push it when on mine even when alone, testing my limits literally. If I make a team then thats rare because I usually on for a mish or two and making a team and being around for just 2 missions is not my style. If I join a team its normally a tf and they tend to be easy settings half the time.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
As Self-Rezzes go, ROTP is a good one.
I'm not convinced it's a great idea for Fire Tankers to be relying on it very often, but then the same could be said for a Tier 9 with a "crash" like Unstoppable.
ROTP is better than most teammate rezzes, and is certainly better than carrying Wakies- For a Tanker, if you DO faceplant, being "invincible" for a few seconds until you finish toggling up again is very helpful. Particularly if aggro control is your concern - With ROTP you simply need to Self-Rez, Taunt, THEN toggle up (compared to another set needing to pop a wakie, a breakfree, and then either use a self-heal and toggle up your armours or pop a bunch of purples and greens before Taunting)
Each of my two regularly-played level 50 tankers, a Fire/Energy and an INV/SS, have their tier 9s. Each hardly ever uses them. I honestly can't remember the last time my INV used Unstoppable, but it was likely on a PUG STF or ITF run. Whilst my Fire tanker isn't HP-Capped, S/L Resist-capped or S/L/E/N Soft-Defence-Capped and can't take nearly as much punishment as my INV, he does have a fair amount of stuns, knockdowns and moderate typed +defence (~33% S/L - enough to hit the soft cap with one small purple) and is far from fragile. Fire's regular powerful Self-Heal is icing on the cake.
Fire/ is meant to trade-off damage mitigation for damage output, and in my opinion it accomplishes this nicely without trading off TOO MUCH mitigation to allow it to function as a proper tank. It might not be able to tank any given GM solo, but it can do so with support (since its existing mitigation combines very nicely with virtually any outside buffs - FF, Cold, Thermal or Sonic Bubbles, Fortitude, Frostwork, etc), has no problem holding aggro and brings extra damage output that other primaries do not. Its Tier 9 is a situational power, just like those of most other tanker primaries - Certainly Dark, INV, Ice and Elec; to a lesser extent Willpower and Shield; and even (arguably) Stone.
It's a matter of perspective. With Rise of the Phoenix, a Fiery Aura Tanker has to be defeated twice to be truly defeated.
I'm not picking on you Grey, but that argument has always lost me.
If my fire tank had a full tray of large res, like I used to for Hami Raids, by that argument you could say Hami had to defeat my tank 16 times to really defeat it.
Like I've already said it's more a matter of taking and slotting a power you normally would hope you don't have to use. In a tight build that pick and slot(s) could go towards something that's frequently used, in a lot of cases to better effect.
Personally I make Bonfire work on my fire/rad troller even though no one in those forums likes it, so if it works for you on whatever level that's what matters.
"You can have a really survivable build with RotP and then still choose not to survive XD."
"Surviving" is the Tankers one big trick.