What is the general consensus on server emptyness?
By
3dent,
Posted on: 2010-07-09 07:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm not saying merging servers means the game is dying. I'm saying people who are into the MMO scene believe that merging servers means a game is dying. (There is a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy aspect to it, since every Dev team knows how badly such a move is seen by the MMO community, so they save it for an absolute last resort... such as when the game is already dying.)|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
This game has been "dying" for 6 years. Are you suggesting that news spreading to the few hundred people outside of this game that might care to learn that the servers are merging now means it is for realzy dying?
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News of server merges in an MMO is almost immediately picked up by all the MMO dedicated news sites, that easily have several hundred thousand regular readers between them. Any of them who are not already CoH players walk away with the idea that CoH = dying game, not worth trying. This is not just a "few hundred people", and it's not the however many dozen newbies get the non-Praetorian starting experience.
Character index
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Or when they have the next replacement product under development. They know that loyal customers will stick around until the new version is released and switch over.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
I'm not saying merging servers means the game is dying. I'm saying people who are into the MMO scene believe that merging servers means a game is dying. (There is a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy aspect to it, since every Dev team knows how badly such a move is seen by the MMO community, so they save it for an absolute last resort... such as when the game is already dying.)
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Merge or don't merge, I don't care, as long as:
- I don't lose the names of any of my characters.
- I don't lose any characters or character slots.
- I don't lose the names of any of my supergroups.
- I don't lose my supergroup bases.
- I don't lose prestige, influence, infamy, merits, salvage, recipes, etc.
Personally, I doubt that anything will attract new subscribers to the game in significant numbers. Lately I've seen a few new players, but I speculate that they are students on summer break using free trial accounts. Most of them won't have the money to spend on a subscription.
So merging the servers won't scare away the hordes of new players who aren't there.
If anyone quits the game because there are no longer underpopulated servers then they probably were getting burned out anyway.
On the one hand I don't see any point to merging the servers, on the other I don't see any harm.
Far simpler than merging them would be to make free server transfers a permanent option. But that would mean abandoning a source of revenue.
Just as an FYI all new accounts will only be able to create characters in Praetoria until they have reached lvl 20 with one of them and then they will unlock the ability to create characters in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles.
Seems someone important enough to call the shots had the exact same thought as me about how new players should be gated into Praetoria. Be sure to send Posi, or WW, or whoever made that call a PM telling them the same things you told me when I said it should happen.
I'm not saying I'm always right, but I'm better than this guy from the Simpsons:
Smooth Jimmy Apollo: "Well, folks, when youre right 52% of the time, youre wrong 48% of the time."
Just a minor idea against server merges:
First Dungeons and Dragons Online and now Everquest 2 have announced free to play mode, where most of the game is available to new players free of charge.
Let's supposed eventually CoH chooses to go the same route. What better place to put free to play newbies than a low population server? The hardware is there and not being used, a flood of newbies all the same level will create an environment where they can all team together, and there's still a few high level players who can act as mentors and inspiration to the newer players. Win-win I think.
Free-to-play seems to be the coming thing, so keeping a low pop server rather than merging seems better than having a newbie island somewhere where players don't get the full game or the best experience. Low pop servers seem the ideal alternative.
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Conversely, gated zones were a way of life for us up until a very short time ago and would achieve segregation of the free players and paid players even better without unnecessarily separating them from each other for content they may want to experience together.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Just a minor idea against server merges:
First Dungeons and Dragons Online and now Everquest 2 have announced free to play mode, where most of the game is available to new players free of charge. Let's supposed eventually CoH chooses to go the same route. What better place to put free to play newbies than a low population server? The hardware is there and not being used, a flood of newbies all the same level will create an environment where they can all team together, and there's still a few high level players who can act as mentors and inspiration to the newer players. Win-win I think. Free-to-play seems to be the coming thing, so keeping a low pop server rather than merging seems better than having a newbie island somewhere where players don't get the full game or the best experience. Low pop servers seem the ideal alternative. |
That way the free players get to hear about what they are missing out when someone says "hey lets go rock the ITF in Cim" and they say, "oh free accounts don't have access to Cim".."oh you should pay up, it is awesome".
If you have gated them to their own little world where pretty much only they exist then they will simply find harmony in their existence, however limited it may be. And then what happens if they decide (despite practically no compelling reason to do so under your model) to upgrade their account. Do they then get free transfers off of freebie world, or are their original characters stuck there unless they pay even more for a transfer?
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
And then what happens if they decide (despite practically no compelling reason to do so under your model) to upgrade their account. Do they then get free transfers off of freebie world, or are their original characters stuck there unless they pay even more for a transfer?
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What I'm saying is DON'T make a newbie world for them. Just use one of the existing low-pop servers. Hence, the existence of high level players to give them advice and look up to and all that.
Games ages naturally. As an old person sometimes lose bone mass games lose people. Some age gracefully, some die ugly. Some lose a lot of "bone mass" some lose only a little bit. All depends on the game. after six years, this game is ding pretty well besides a few bald spots. But as you have cities with 100 people that refuse to leave or even the few people that was recently removed from the coal fire town of Centralia, even when it was hazard to their healths, they still didnt want to budge till the end. About the same concept. The town aint empty to them, they know the rest of the 5 or ten. They was a tight knit community and liked it like that. Or course a new guy in town might see it as dead, they dont. And the thousands that moved, said the town was dying, they seen it as a thriving community. And I think that how even the low pop servers will be until the last hero is pulled kicking and screaming saying there is lot of life left in the server.
Unfortunately, when the gaming community see servers merging, it usually is percieved as doom as we all know people take their perception as absolute truth and what they and gather is the way it is in stone and if you dont see it their way then your idea is stupid.
Hey, as long as there is enough traffic on a server to keep it open, then all for it. Plus it's nice to have a spot to take a break from all the bustle and hustle. It's nice to roll through Atlas and 50 odd characters are standign around under the satue waitign for costume contest and another 25 waiting for the next one that is sceduled after ten minutes after the first one ends. Sometimes it's nice to do ol fashion street sweeping without having to rush so that some random guy steal ya kill just because street mobs are scarce for the map and the amount of people street hunting. Sometimes it's nice to hang around old pals who been around since ya first hero and still kicking it in victory and talking about old times. At the same time, it's nice ot bea able to find a team when the tight nit group is on vacation. Or find a nice PuG within 10 min. Or even a random LFT is good too at times.
Some people like jelly some people like jam some people like fired bacon and bannana and eac hgroup with swear that their taste is superior and everyone else is stupid for not liking what they like.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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I realize what you said, but if you stick all of them onto the same server(s) segregated from all (or practically all) of the paying customers, what do you think you've just created?|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
What I'm saying is DON'T make a newbie world for them. Just use one of the existing low-pop servers. Hence, the existence of high level players to give them advice and look up to and all that.
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-A newbie world
specifically in this case a newbie world that you leave a few unlucky paid players to survive in.
The way to avoid that is to integrate them into the game but gate them off from certain paid areas. Considering that is already in place it makes a lot of sense too.
For instance a free account would not have access to (just off the top of my head):
Cim, Ouro, PI, Praetoria, Grandville, Pocket D, AE, the ability to build/edit supergroups (but could be part of one), and who knows what else.
That way they are frequently exposed to people that do have access to those things which gives them incentive to purchase them because the goal is to always convert a free player into a paid player. The very fact that you want to stick them all on a low pop server of their own with but the few paid customers that happen to reside there has drastically reduced any potential for conversion to paid status.
To be totally honest, if they ever move to a F2P model they will want to condense the population as much as possible for maximum potential sales to the free customers. F2P is more of a reason to merge than it is to not merge.
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Just out of curiosity because I hadn't heard...source, please?
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Frosticus is happy to be listened to: Just as an FYI all new accounts will only be able to create characters in Praetoria until they have reached lvl 20 with one of them and then they will unlock the ability to create characters in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles. |
Dec out.
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The Dev ViDoc #2 at 2:30.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
Just out of curiosity because I hadn't heard...source, please?
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ViDoc #2
Praetorians are neutral and have to go thru the first 20 levels making choices which will determine if they will become heroes or villains. Only heroes will have access to Paragon City, and only Villains will have access to the Rogue Isles. If they want to cross over then they'll need to go thru the fallen/redemption stuff or whatever that's called.
That's not at all what Frosty's saying.
2:22ish "When you create a brand new character with Going Rogue, you're given a choice of becoming a hero or a villain, or you can become a Praetorian. And a Praetorian hasn't made that choice yet." It goes on from there to discuss how Praetorians work. It says nothing at all about "new accounts can only start in Praetoria" which is what Frosty's talking about.
Dec out.
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I assumed that he misspoke and meant new characters made in Praetoria. We'll have to wait till he returns to see if my assumption was correct.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
That's not at all what Frosty's saying.
2:22ish "When you create a brand new character with Going Rogue, you're given a choice of becoming a hero or a villain, or you can become a Praetorian. And a Praetorian hasn't made that choice yet." It goes on from there to discuss how Praetorians work. It says nothing at all about "new accounts can only start in Praetoria" which is what Frosty's talking about. |
Found it in the tentonhammer interview, and the language isn't the least bit ambiguous. Frosty's spot on. From Posi's mouth to our ear:
“We have this alternate dimension, this alternate earth, called Praetoria. When you first start the game, if you’ve never made another character, we force you to start as Praetorian, because that’s our best new player content; that’s our best foot forward.”
Dec out.
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Frosty said this:|
Originally Posted by Decorum
Found it in the tentonhammer interview, and the language isn't the least bit ambiguous. Frosty's spot on. From Posi's mouth to our ear:
“We have this alternate dimension, this alternate earth, called Praetoria. When you first start the game, if you’ve never made another character, we force you to start as Praetorian, because that’s our best new player content; that’s our best foot forward.” |
"Just as an FYI all new accounts will only be able to create characters in Praetoria until they have reached lvl 20 with one of them and then they will unlock the ability to create characters in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles."
Post said the first character has to be made in Praetoria, per the quote above. Nothing about having to get to lvl 20. Sounds like the 2nd character can be in Paragon or the Rogue isles.
Edit - unless there is another quote floating around.
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Ok. So my assumption was wrong.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Found it in the tentonhammer interview, and the language isn't the least bit ambiguous. Frosty's spot on. From Posi's mouth to our ear:
We have this alternate dimension, this alternate earth, called Praetoria. When you first start the game, if youve never made another character, we force you to start as Praetorian, because thats our best new player content; thats our best foot forward. |
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True. I meant to mention the level 20 omission, but I've got like 8 windows open and forgot. |
Jetpack notes an exception: Frosty said this: "Just as an FYI all new accounts will only be able to create characters in Praetoria until they have reached lvl 20 with one of them and then they will unlock the ability to create characters in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles." Post said the first character has to be made in Praetoria, per the quote above. Nothing about having to get to lvl 20. Sounds like the 2nd character can be in Paragon or the Rogue isles. Edit - unless there is another quote floating around. |
I didn't finish the article, though, it may be further down.
Dec out.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
I realize what you said, but if you stick all of them onto the same server(s) segregated from all (or practically all) of the paying customers, what do you think you've just created?
-A newbie world specifically in this case a newbie world that you leave a few unlucky paid players to survive in. |
See I think it would be a benefit for existing players to have fresh faces on a low-pop server. And I didn't say this but I'm also thinking that it would be easy to use the top (bottom?) four or so low-pop servers, so it just would fill them up naturally. You've got several low pop servers, why not let the new folks fill them up?
What I would definitely do is prevent a bunch on unpaid folks from impacting an already highly impacted server, like Virtue and Freedom.
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For instance a free account would not have access to (just off the top of my head): Cim, Ouro, PI, Praetoria, Grandville, Pocket D, AE, the ability to build/edit supergroups (but could be part of one), and who knows what else. |
Allow all zones and contacts normally available. Bases and AE should be available too, it's a way for new folks to "invest" themselves in the game.
Restrict on: make IOs unavailable (this game's not balanced around IOs anyway, freebies can get by fine on SOs), make an Inf cap, restrict storage for salvage slightly (it's already pretty restricted, can't really go too much more), and probably restrict the effects of badges (no accolades), day jobs, and some temp powers, and I'd prevent freebies from gaining (or maybe just using) Merits of any kind.
Just my 2 inf.
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Yes my apologies I was taking the info 3rd hand and didn't confirm it myself before posting... that's a no no that I try to avoid.|
Originally Posted by Jetpack
Frosty said this:
"Just as an FYI all new accounts will only be able to create characters in Praetoria until they have reached lvl 20 with one of them and then they will unlock the ability to create characters in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles." Post said the first character has to be made in Praetoria, per the quote above. Nothing about having to get to lvl 20. Sounds like the 2nd character can be in Paragon or the Rogue isles. Edit - unless there is another quote floating around. |
It does indeed sound like the second character you create will have access to the full game. I think that is a reasonable blend of new player gating that also ensures you aren't being too restrictive or seemingly arbitrary in execution.
It should achieve the main point of why I suggested the gating in the first place, which is to ensure a new player experiences the best of what the game has to offer in terms of content and player base. Unless a new player quits their first toon a few seconds in they will have had opportunity to see many other players roaming about so if they then decide to check out the rogue isles/Paragon city and they are deserted during the GR launch it won't be so crushing.
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The only reason I can suggest is because people that are adamant about playing on low servers seem to imply that they would quit if they became more popular...|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
why not let the new folks fill them up?
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| What I would definitely do is prevent a bunch on unpaid folks from impacting an already highly impacted server, like Virtue and Freedom. |
But aside from the fun of considering it I don't think they'll switch to f2p. But it is neat to think about what the game might look like under such a model.
I don't think either thing would ever happen until the death knells are already ringing.
Dec out.
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Mmm, I don't think that is what they are saying.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
The only reason I can suggest is because people that are adamant about playing on low servers seem to imply that they would quit if they became more popular...
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I believe it's more like we'll quit if we lose our character names and SG's.
I would be surprised if people quit because more people played on their server. I think it has to do with how those people get there.
Jetpack has it right. I, personally, would only feel constrained if Victory started having Freedom numbers (and while it's not going to happen, I would still stay, just feel "crowded"). But you get my names only at the business end of a gun!
Dec out.
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Bingo. |
Originally Posted by Jetpack
Mmm, I don't think that is what they are saying.
I believe it's more like we'll quit if we lose our character names and SG's. I would be surprised if people quit because more people played on their server. I think it has to do with how those people get there. |
If Champion (one of the servers I'm on) suddenly got a bunch of new players on it? Hey, cool. If Champion got it by getting merged with Guardian? I'd be severely unhappy, since I know I, personally, would have name conflicts (for starters.) Quite possibly irritating me enough to leave the game, depending on the extent and magnitude of the problems that would crop up.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
The pro-merge crowd hasn't made a good point in many a page now. every argument they throw out has been destroyed as a useless waste of time.
See? Anyone can throw around baseless statements.
Some people "maybe" being turned off the game after they buy it because they start a non-Praetorian on a lesser-populated server is nothing compared to many, many people who have never played the game being definitely turned off of ever trying it when they hear of server merges.
We know that that devs will be forced to change how names are dealt with in order to facilitate a merger.
This means time which means money.
If the financial expenditure needed to alter the game to facilitate the merger is more than the cost of leaving the servers as is, there will be no merger.
Just like getting anywhere near an accurate population/subscription number is unlikely for us we can't tackle that side of the discussion beyond acknowledging the fact that it supersedes the entire discussion. Which we already did some time ago.