Because Axe needs help? It's already an excellent performer in both ST and AoE. There isn't really much of a reason beyond "it's a bladed weapon" as to why it should get some -def attached as it's actually got one of the better "chance for" effects in the game thanks to reliability and ease of use.
I thought my post said why. >_>
For the proc and because all the other bladed weapons have it.
No other reason at all. 
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
it already has a secondary effect. knockdown. there is no need to change it.
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I didn't say change. I said add. Not even to all the attacks, just one.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
it already has a secondary effect. knockdown. there is no need to change it.
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*shrug* Not that big of a deal. I don't even have an axe user. I just started to wonder why Axe was the only blade weapon set to lack it after I was discussing the Axe set with a friend who has one.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Because variety is the spice of life.
Honestly I've got an Axe tank and the set feels very solid to me (and I don't even have Pendulum yet).
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Because in weapon sets all the other ones would be swords an axe would be.... well an axe? Why don't claws have the -def too then? Or Maces? I'm sure there are maces with pointy sides out there. Or Arrows for that matter?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I didn't say change. I said add. Not even to all the attacks, just one.
*shrug* Not that big of a deal. I don't even have an axe user. I just started to wonder why Axe was the only blade weapon set to lack it after I was discussing the Axe set with a friend who has one. |
Claws *does* have -def in the 3rd power, Slash. Even in the Brute version of Eviscerate, the melee cone, there's -def...so claws has -def as a bladed weapon set.
It is rather odd that it's the only weapon set that deals slashing type lethal damage and doesn't apply any type of -def. Looking at it from a mechanics standpoint, -def is suppose to be 'cutting through the enemy's armor', right? Do Axes not do that?
It can't be 'piercing through an enemy's armor' because then Archery would need the -def and Katana/Broadsword wouldn't because all those attacks are slashing. DB and claws mix slashing and stabbing so could go either way.
Would Axe *need* -def? No. Even to cover mechanics, I'd rather Axe get something else. What effect would simulate dismemberment? -Regen or -Res? Would be cool if they added that or -def to 1 of the powers...
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What effect simulates dismemberment, to me, is... Well, death through overwhelming damage |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Would Axe *need* -def? No. Even to cover mechanics, I'd rather Axe get something else. What effect would simulate dismemberment? -Regen or -Res? Would be cool if they added that or -def to 1 of the powers...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As already said, and as said in my original post (did you even read it?), claws does have -Def in one attack.|
Originally Posted by Quincy_Archer
Because in weapon sets all the other ones would be swords an axe would be.... well an axe? Why don't claws have the -def too then? Or Maces? I'm sure there are maces with pointy sides out there. Or Arrows for that matter?
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Maces are blunt force, not the bladed action of Axe.
I was really thinking only melee with the suggestion as well. And why doesn't Archery have a -Def attack?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Foes of my Axe/WP Brute don't live long enough for -Def to be relevant.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Because -def is not exactly a promise with lethal weapons, it's literally to compensate for a melee blade's BLANDNESS in abilities.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
As already said, and as said in my original post (did you even read it?), claws does have -Def in one attack.
Maces are blunt force, not the bladed action of Axe. I was really thinking only melee with the suggestion as well. And why doesn't Archery have a -Def attack? |
Claws has -def in one attack, it also has three AoEs, is the fastest melee set, and two ranged attacks.
Dual Blades has it's combos with their varying effects, three AoE attacks, and something else I think.
Katana and broadsword... have a +def for one attack and a tier 9 with a higher crit than other sword attacks.
Archery wouldn't have it becase it's not just a lethal damage set. It also deals fire, smash, can stun, and has some good AoEs and a non-crashing nuke.
Assault rifle has a -def, deal fire damage, no crash (crappy) tier nine, can stun, and is AoE intensive, but the -def was probably because it lacks an aim or build up power and is, by default, hideous. But that's my opinion.
Dual Pistols has a -def, a hold/stun, multiple damage types and effects, no aim/build up, a -res, and a crashless nuke.
So, battleaxe makes up for it's lack of -def with being a simple, heavy hitter.
Though if it had to have a secondary effect, I'd say additional special damage over time (you know, from copious bleeding), -damage (since it's a little hard to raise your arms to attack with a HUGE gash in them), or -recharge (same logic as the last).
Also, if archery had to have a secondary, I'd say it would be -move speed since they've got those HUGE arrows embedded into their character model when they're hit with them.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I'm in the camp of folks that think Battle Axe is pretty much fine as it is right now. The damage is impressive, the KD is good fun and makes for great incoming damage mitigation. Adding another secondary effect could possibly mean lowering or losing something else the the set has already and that would not be popular move.
Sorry but this falls under the heading of if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
/unsigned
>
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
I don't care what they do to it as long as they keep that cool "WHURCH! sound.
Dec out.
I think it makes sense for axe to debuff defense. Since axe already has a theme for secondary effect (kd and ku), I don't think it's appropriate to add defense debuff to all the attacks. I think it is ok to add defense debuff to gash or cleave, for example. Both attacks imply deep cuts that can potentially have the effect of defense debuff.
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Actually, most people don't care about a few percent of defense debuff. I doubt that people notice the secondary effect even. I don't see how that little defense debuff on an attack or two for a few seconds can make the powers or even a power set suddenly become overpowered, and all the other power sets need to be adjusted. Also, the -def is a theme for lethal weapons, it shouldn't be added to all the tanker's sets.|
Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
Which would make them the two most powerful weapon attacks in the game. Axe is already balanced with all the Tanker secondaries, so to add either -res or -def you would have to add it to all the Tank sets, which might happen someday, but it would be ridiculously unbalanced to ad it solely to BA.
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In my opinion, battle axe is fine as it is, and it has its own secondary effects designed for it. I don't think the power set needs the extra defense debuff, however it is also thematic to have it. And I don't think it is overpowering to add it to one attack or two. It is exaggerating to say that the addition would make the power set ridiculously unbalanced.
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Originally Posted by McBoo
I'm in the camp of folks that think Battle Axe is pretty much fine as it is right now. The damage is impressive, the KD is good fun and makes for great incoming damage mitigation.
/unsigned |
Let's add Psi damage to it, why don't we!
I don't mean to be harsh, but this is a badly uninformed suggestion.
Ok, that was harsh, but if you "don't even have an axe user" the idea makes more sense.
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Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
I think it is ok to add defense debuff to gash or cleave, for example.
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Which would make them the two most powerful weapon attacks in the game. Axe is already balanced with all the Tanker secondaries, so to add either -res or -def you would have to add it to all the Tank sets, which might happen someday, but it would be ridiculously unbalanced to ad it solely to BA.
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No. I don't have an Axe user. I've gotten one to level 12-16 before deleting it (this was a couple of years ago...Fire/Axe Tanker...I did love the costume).|
Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
Which would make them the two most powerful weapon attacks in the game. Axe is already balanced with all the Tanker secondaries, so to add either -res or -def you would have to add it to all the Tank sets, which might happen someday, but it would be ridiculously unbalanced to ad it solely to BA.
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What I have gotten to 32 (Broadsword), and to 50 (Katana, Claws, Dual Blades), I can tell you now, I have found -Def to not be a game breaker. In fact, late game, I don't even notice the -Def, when compared to sets without it.
Why?
Because I have enough ACC (I like to take Tactics also), that I'm not missing to begin with. So, it could just be my own experience, but -Def is nothing special.
Also, I said, out of all the bladed weapons, why is Axe the only one missing it. No big deal. And was just a suggestion.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
There is a fuzzy line between balanced sets and generic sets. Axe is balanced nicely. To add more to it you would need to rebalance it. Reworking it so that it is more like a sword very easily crosses the line into generic blade set.
Axe is not a sword and I really do enjoy the fact it doesn't play like swords.
This suggestion degrades the set it would not enhance it.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
There is a fuzzy line between balanced sets and generic sets. Axe is balanced nicely. To add more to it you would need to rebalance it. Reworking it so that it is more like a sword very easily crosses the line into generic blade set.
Axe is not a sword and I really do enjoy the fact it doesn't play like swords. This suggestion degrades the set it would not enhance it. |
Okay. How so? How does adding -Def to one attack, degrade the set?
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The BrandX Collection
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Consider the smashing damage analog of Axe, War Mace, which is widely considered better than Battle Axe because of its mix of effects and slightly better AoE. War Mace mixes Knock up, Knockback and stuns into its 8 attacks yet Battle Axe only has Knock up and Knockback.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
There is a fuzzy line between balanced sets and generic sets. Axe is balanced nicely. To add more to it you would need to rebalance it. Reworking it so that it is more like a sword very easily crosses the line into generic blade set.
Axe is not a sword and I really do enjoy the fact it doesn't play like swords. This suggestion degrades the set it would not enhance it. |
If anything, adding an effect that simulates 'bladedness' differentiates it from its sister set, Mace.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Consider the smashing damage analog of Axe, War Mace, which is widely considered better than Battle Axe because of its mix of effects and slightly better AoE. War Mace mixes Knock up, Knockback and stuns into its 8 attacks yet Battle Axe only has Knock up and Knockback.
If anything, adding an effect that simulates 'bladedness' differentiates it from its sister set, Mace. |
Missing from that argument is that knock up or down which every Axe attack does is considerably more effective and desirable as damage mitigation then the equivalent disorients in Mace.
As is, Axe already simply has much better control next to Mace, even WA has a 20% higher chance of performing a superior type of mitigation compared to it's counterpart, that isn't a minor detail when you're balancing similar sets.
Castle's already modified Battle Axe's attack times and rooted portion of animations with the general sweep of melee sets back in 07, and looking at the math it's barely behind War Mace in general performance as you can see in Starsman's charts.
When all factors are considered the differences between the sets are negligible, as both currently have fairly good attack speeds, some disorienting and knockUp/Down capabilities, an accuracy bonus, moderate to high endurance use, heavy smashing aoe, and strong ST damage.
So there isn't a glaring disparity here of Mace over Axe that would require BA to be given a unique advantage.
I'll just add that if you really want to push for a change to BA, whatever the odds are, you'd probably have a better shot starting a thread in the tanker section and trying to build some support. Though this idea is unlikely to happen.
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You wouldn't need a glaring disparity so long as the proposed unique advantage isn't powerful and -def really isn't. If anything, it's only for the chance to slot different IOs and procs in the high levels and maybe better accuracy for temp powers in the low levels.|
Originally Posted by Acemace
So there isn't a glaring disparity here of Mace over Axe that would require BA to be given a unique advantage. |
But all things considered; Is Mace above performance of Axe? Yes or no. Does -def push anything in Axe out of whack? Yes or no. Is -def thematic of bladed weaponry? Yes or no.
Even if only slightly, yes, I've heard Mace performs a tad better than Axe. Even considering the higher chance of knock- that Axe gets (oh, hope nothing gets immobilized or is already suffering knock-), Mace gets *enough* knock...and stuns.
No, -def is only a minor advantage (especially if it's only in 1 or 2 attacks). It's actually why I don't think adding it is all that needed, but it certainly could be advantageous when making slotting decisions.
Although it could be either way, I believe yes, -def is thematic for bladed weapons. But really, I think the goal of an axe isn't to break armor but rather lopping off parts. Higher crit damage (that is, when Axe gets proliferated to Scrappers/Stalkers and they score a crit, the extra resulting damage would be *higher* than double) could be thematic but really, that's an effect I'm praying for when a Scythe set finally (possibly) gets made...
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This assumes a mix of mediocre effects is superior to a singular focus on a single effect. Martial Arts would seem to suggest that "odds and ends" secondary effects are not terribly popular. Experience with Battle Axe would seem to suggest that its focus on knockdown on literally every attack is far superior in terms of mitigation than War Mace's low chance for low-mag short-duration stun is. A lucky streak on an axe character can keep an entire spawn off its feet for a good portion of the time and a boss mostly knocked down the majority of the time. I've never seen anything even remotely similar with War Mace's stuns. The only time I so much as notice them is on Clobber, and only because it has an autohit mag 3 stun on it.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Consider the smashing damage analog of Axe, War Mace, which is widely considered better than Battle Axe because of its mix of effects and slightly better AoE. War Mace mixes Knock up, Knockback and stuns into its 8 attacks yet Battle Axe only has Knock up and Knockback.
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I'd take Battle Axe over War Mace every time, and while I'm never against adding more redundant effects to buff any set, I don't think Battle Axe really needs one, and I definitely don't want to do it by using War Mace as a boogieman.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It needs -Def tacked on somewhere.
Claws, Dual Blades, Broadsword, Katana (and thusly Ninja Blade) all bladed weapons, all have at least 1 attack with -Defense.
Battle Axe needs this too!
Give us the ability to slot a -resist proc! Tanks could use this a lot!
Think of the Axe users!
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The BrandX Collection